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Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... 38
- Thread starter JohnRBaker
- Start date
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Fischstabchen
Electrical
Electricpete,
I think this is the bill.
There isn't anything in it that is outrageous. New interconnecting generation hunts and pecks around the grid to find places to interconnect that will require the least amount of system upgrade, which they will have to pay. What this bill is doing is placing wind and solar on a more similar footing to other generation by forcing them to pay for improvement related to them being intermittents generation. I think that this is the result of two things, a concerning with how the grid can handle emergencies with less dispatchable generation and conventional generation and other groups getting tired of socialized expenses related to renewables. Both points are valid in my opinion. Dispatchable generation is required during events and with the need for more winterization investment, it is understandable that plants not want to be on unevening footing or for plants financially struggling to be pushed into early retirement.
I think this is the bill.
There isn't anything in it that is outrageous. New interconnecting generation hunts and pecks around the grid to find places to interconnect that will require the least amount of system upgrade, which they will have to pay. What this bill is doing is placing wind and solar on a more similar footing to other generation by forcing them to pay for improvement related to them being intermittents generation. I think that this is the result of two things, a concerning with how the grid can handle emergencies with less dispatchable generation and conventional generation and other groups getting tired of socialized expenses related to renewables. Both points are valid in my opinion. Dispatchable generation is required during events and with the need for more winterization investment, it is understandable that plants not want to be on unevening footing or for plants financially struggling to be pushed into early retirement.
- Moderator
- #364
I had assumed that renewables were already paying via the price structure.
I had assumed that interruptible power would sell for less than firm power.
If renewable is sold at the same price as firm power, then the costs may be justified.
If renewable is already priced at a discount, it sounds like double dipping.
Follow the money.
Discouraging renewable energy will be good for the oil and gas industry.
Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!
I had assumed that interruptible power would sell for less than firm power.
If renewable is sold at the same price as firm power, then the costs may be justified.
If renewable is already priced at a discount, it sounds like double dipping.
Follow the money.
Discouraging renewable energy will be good for the oil and gas industry.
Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!
Fischstabchen
Electrical
Waross,
Renewables aren't priced at a discount. State and federal subsidies add up to over a $20 a MWH and the market usually closes out at $30 a MWH in ERCOT. The industry could stand on its own legs in some regions with a lot of wind or sun but in a lot of places it wouldn't work without the subsidy or state mandates. It isn't a new thing for the government to subsidize an industry. Nuclear received heavy subsidies as the industry was maturing and cheap fuel due to nuclear arms reduction. Both wind and solar have matured but you wouldn't see a lot of solar or wind farms without the government pushing them.
I don't know the specifics exactly but wind and solar is given preference when sold into the market due to it being non-dispatchable. Most power from conventional plants is sold by contract before the plants are ever built to reduce risk. I suspect that this is done with most wind and solar as well. One utility, I worked for in Oklahoma was buying out everything from a couple of wind farms in the area for $50 a MWH. That looked like a reasonable rate to reduce the amount of power they needed to buy from other entities before natural gas became extremely cheap.
Renewables aren't priced at a discount. State and federal subsidies add up to over a $20 a MWH and the market usually closes out at $30 a MWH in ERCOT. The industry could stand on its own legs in some regions with a lot of wind or sun but in a lot of places it wouldn't work without the subsidy or state mandates. It isn't a new thing for the government to subsidize an industry. Nuclear received heavy subsidies as the industry was maturing and cheap fuel due to nuclear arms reduction. Both wind and solar have matured but you wouldn't see a lot of solar or wind farms without the government pushing them.
I don't know the specifics exactly but wind and solar is given preference when sold into the market due to it being non-dispatchable. Most power from conventional plants is sold by contract before the plants are ever built to reduce risk. I suspect that this is done with most wind and solar as well. One utility, I worked for in Oklahoma was buying out everything from a couple of wind farms in the area for $50 a MWH. That looked like a reasonable rate to reduce the amount of power they needed to buy from other entities before natural gas became extremely cheap.
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1
- #366
Sweden, like most of the EU is silly expensive compared to the US with very high taxes and high cost of living. Not sure why you seem to think Americans worry over education or healthcare costs, but those are both relatively cheap and of little concern here. An undergrad is roughly equivalent to a modest car in cost, easily paid off by most paying students within 2-3 years of graduation and there's many ways to earn a free degree besides. Many like my wife actually enjoy collecting degrees as a cheap hobby, last I knew she was up to three over the last decade. Healthcare is similar. As employers cover the bulk of the cost, employee healthcare is fairly cheap and comprehensive vs elsewhere. Last I knew the average family of four paid the equivalent of their cell phone bill monthly, with many paying much less. The wife and I pay $70, which covers us entirely from cosmetics like her Invisalign orthadonture to primary care to Medi-flights home from overseas.
Why do search and rescue organizations all over the US recover a few thousand umprepared & lost hikers every year? Why do so many traffic accidents occur in parking lots? Why do so many motorcyclists get killed every year bc they failed to negotiate a turn or offramp? Simple answer to all - bc people do dumb things. That's not to be unkind but the simple truth of the matter....and FWIW, after a pothole nearly took me off my bike at 80mph years ago, I'm convinced I will die in a similarly silly manner.
As to COVID, I struggle with those discussions due to the simple lack of logic even among smart folks. For some reason when politics and emotion get involved, even engineers tend to forget standard scientific method and rules for causality. The true COVID tragedy stateside was the fact that we allowed a handful of politicians and quacks to inflate the statistics for petty political use. Sadly, we will never know how many truly died of COVID bc we tossed out decades of clinical practice and thus severely polluted the available data. Sorry not sorry, but suggesting the elderly, folks with AIDS, or others with severely compromised immune systems died of COVID is like saying folks in Texas died en-masse due to lack of power - utter nonsense devoid of both science and common sense.
I'm not sure if you mentioned when you last where in Sweden?
But as a simple comparison, I came up with these numbers.
To make a complet comparison would be several years of work.
The us numbers are from and the Swedish from
If you have the same net salary after tax in Sweden as in US and have one child in school the average school fee is almost the same as you pay in tax in Sweden.
Then you still have free medical care, income compensation if you are sick, 480 days payed parental leave per child, 5 weeks payed vacation every year, etc.
I also noticed that there was Mortgage Interest Rate in Percentages (%), Yearly, for 20 Years Fixed-Rate at 4,08%
In Sweden right now you can't get a 20 year fixed-rate the highest seems to be 10 year and the lowest seems to 1,53% right now.
The average pris for a Bottle of Wine (Mid-Range 12 USD in the US.
Not shore what's considered Mid-range and is it 75cl ?
My favorit US wines are SomeZin 7,3 USD and 7 Deadly Zins 16 USD (75 cl).
Here you can get a mobil subscription with surf 5GB for 12 $ a month, calls, SMS free, no binding period.
My internet connection 1000-Mbit 16 $/month your average is 65.69 $
And when it comes to food the only items I can see that seems to be cheaper in the US are milk, beef, chicken fillets, bananas and lettuce.
Somethings are actually much cheaper in Sweden.
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
But as a simple comparison, I came up with these numbers.
To make a complet comparison would be several years of work.
The us numbers are from and the Swedish from
If you have the same net salary after tax in Sweden as in US and have one child in school the average school fee is almost the same as you pay in tax in Sweden.
Then you still have free medical care, income compensation if you are sick, 480 days payed parental leave per child, 5 weeks payed vacation every year, etc.
I also noticed that there was Mortgage Interest Rate in Percentages (%), Yearly, for 20 Years Fixed-Rate at 4,08%
In Sweden right now you can't get a 20 year fixed-rate the highest seems to be 10 year and the lowest seems to 1,53% right now.
The average pris for a Bottle of Wine (Mid-Range 12 USD in the US.
Not shore what's considered Mid-range and is it 75cl ?
My favorit US wines are SomeZin 7,3 USD and 7 Deadly Zins 16 USD (75 cl).
Here you can get a mobil subscription with surf 5GB for 12 $ a month, calls, SMS free, no binding period.
My internet connection 1000-Mbit 16 $/month your average is 65.69 $
And when it comes to food the only items I can see that seems to be cheaper in the US are milk, beef, chicken fillets, bananas and lettuce.
Somethings are actually much cheaper in Sweden.
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
Is going to university in Sweden expensive? In Spain I think it costs about 3000 € per year.
If you are self employed in the US, you will pay a very lot of money for health insurance. My brother pays over $1500 /mo. I have the same coverage as he, but pay $150/mo in Spain and no hastles from the ins co. If the doc says I am sick, they pay. I dont even see the hospital bills.
What about car insurance costs? US is expensive there too. Most places do not have effective public transportation, if any, so there is usually no choice. There can be high taxes for car license fees. The only good thing is gasoline is cheap.
God help you if you need a US lawyer.
If you are self employed in the US, you will pay a very lot of money for health insurance. My brother pays over $1500 /mo. I have the same coverage as he, but pay $150/mo in Spain and no hastles from the ins co. If the doc says I am sick, they pay. I dont even see the hospital bills.
What about car insurance costs? US is expensive there too. Most places do not have effective public transportation, if any, so there is usually no choice. There can be high taxes for car license fees. The only good thing is gasoline is cheap.
God help you if you need a US lawyer.
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
There is a registration fee and student union fee every semester but it is under 200$ for a year if your a EU citizen.
Its about 10 000 euro if your not a eu citizen per year.
Only reason why I know is a mate has a kid studying there. And there was some debate about what he was going to pay after the 1st of Jan.
I think all the scandi countries are basically no fee.
Its about 10 000 euro if your not a eu citizen per year.
Only reason why I know is a mate has a kid studying there. And there was some debate about what he was going to pay after the 1st of Jan.
I think all the scandi countries are basically no fee.
If you are a Swede or EU member the cost is zero.
If not there is a 88 EUR, 105 USD registration fee, and the study fee depends on university and program it varies.
If you are self employed you have free health care, (everyone has) but you only get sick leave pay the same way an employed person do, relative to the amount that you have taken out as salary from the company.
We have Road (Car) tax it can be everything from 4 EUR (my car ;-) ) usually 10 up to 2600 EUR.
They just remade the tax, the more pollution the higher tax.
Insurance max 800 EUR for full coverage.
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
If not there is a 88 EUR, 105 USD registration fee, and the study fee depends on university and program it varies.
If you are self employed you have free health care, (everyone has) but you only get sick leave pay the same way an employed person do, relative to the amount that you have taken out as salary from the company.
We have Road (Car) tax it can be everything from 4 EUR (my car ;-) ) usually 10 up to 2600 EUR.
They just remade the tax, the more pollution the higher tax.
Insurance max 800 EUR for full coverage.
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
I think your income numbers must be converted, because I don't know of many engineers that make over $3M.
Besides, public schools for K-12 are free in most places (not very good but free).
Yes, my employer pays a bigger part of my health insurance. Car license fees are not too bad.
But with paying for university classes, my employer will pay for some of them for me. For my daughter, I can choose which school she goes to (we picked a good engineering school).
But this has nothing to do with Texas wind power.
I still think this is a political problem, that the residences will have to pay for. Not having a backup is a cost that you don't have to pay everyday (but should). That's the lure of saving money.
Besides, public schools for K-12 are free in most places (not very good but free).
Yes, my employer pays a bigger part of my health insurance. Car license fees are not too bad.
But with paying for university classes, my employer will pay for some of them for me. For my daughter, I can choose which school she goes to (we picked a good engineering school).
But this has nothing to do with Texas wind power.
I still think this is a political problem, that the residences will have to pay for. Not having a backup is a cost that you don't have to pay everyday (but should). That's the lure of saving money.
no millions :-(
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
It's not just a Texas issue when a large % of the power can't be trusted and is limited to real power only.
I must admit I benefit. I have the grid on standby when ever I need it for 3 euro a month
I must admit I benefit. I have the grid on standby when ever I need it for 3 euro a month
My last trip to Sweden would've been 2016 when I was still working in Munich too much.
Comparing costs is indeed difficult. K-12 public education stateside is funded by real estate property taxes and thus shared by the majority of folks regardless if they have children in school or not. Its the same funds that generally cover local street maintenance, garbage collection, parks maintenance etc, which costs families ~$2k/year. College is ~$8k annually for full time students. 30 year fixed rate mortgages are common here, above 4% would've been a first-time homebuyer a decade ago, most folks are getting ~2% interest rates now. Homes under $100k cost are still common and I've had homes with monthly mortgage payments under $300, which makes for easy entry into the rental business. Cell and internet vary quite a lot bc they tend to be packaged with television and other services. My folks pay ~$15/month for both as senior citizens, my wife and I are ~$75/month for two phones and home internet. Health insurance for the self-employed does indeed have some silly statistics surrounding it but only bc ignorance skews things greatly. Bought individually yes, its pricy, however bought at a group discount as a member of a professional organization or union brings the cost down to be comparable with any employer / group-based policy. Usually if you ask the folks complaining about healthcare costs about professional membership you get a rant about professional organizations being a waste of money, and they are clueless about the healthcare or other benefits. I've BTDT as have many family members and thought $350/month was high enough. I'm not a fan of many organizations yet cannot argue the good they do for members in one way or another and have no issue with taking advantage for significant savings. Auto insurance is similar, many loudmouths never read much less understand their policy and willingly get ripped off, skewing statistics. As an avid car guy with ~$100k in my small collection, the most I have paid for insurance was ~$200/month, and that was bc until last year MI required us to carry silly amounts of health coverage for others. Prior to moving here I was paying ~$900 annually.
Looking at the big picture, the most expensive thing stateside is ignorance, same as anywhere.
In general I would say that many folks want too much, have no idea what most things should cost, and end up seriously overpaying. Unfortunately they tend to be a loud minority. My wife and I grew up poor and have no interest in being so again, nor in having to work through old age. We live very well on 40% of my income, pay cash for everything but houses, do our own taxes and most of our home/vehicle/other repairs, read/research expenses and shop around, and are more than halfway to being millionaires despite getting a late start on savings eleven years ago. I honestly don't believe I would be nearly as well off if I'd lived anywhere overseas.
Comparing costs is indeed difficult. K-12 public education stateside is funded by real estate property taxes and thus shared by the majority of folks regardless if they have children in school or not. Its the same funds that generally cover local street maintenance, garbage collection, parks maintenance etc, which costs families ~$2k/year. College is ~$8k annually for full time students. 30 year fixed rate mortgages are common here, above 4% would've been a first-time homebuyer a decade ago, most folks are getting ~2% interest rates now. Homes under $100k cost are still common and I've had homes with monthly mortgage payments under $300, which makes for easy entry into the rental business. Cell and internet vary quite a lot bc they tend to be packaged with television and other services. My folks pay ~$15/month for both as senior citizens, my wife and I are ~$75/month for two phones and home internet. Health insurance for the self-employed does indeed have some silly statistics surrounding it but only bc ignorance skews things greatly. Bought individually yes, its pricy, however bought at a group discount as a member of a professional organization or union brings the cost down to be comparable with any employer / group-based policy. Usually if you ask the folks complaining about healthcare costs about professional membership you get a rant about professional organizations being a waste of money, and they are clueless about the healthcare or other benefits. I've BTDT as have many family members and thought $350/month was high enough. I'm not a fan of many organizations yet cannot argue the good they do for members in one way or another and have no issue with taking advantage for significant savings. Auto insurance is similar, many loudmouths never read much less understand their policy and willingly get ripped off, skewing statistics. As an avid car guy with ~$100k in my small collection, the most I have paid for insurance was ~$200/month, and that was bc until last year MI required us to carry silly amounts of health coverage for others. Prior to moving here I was paying ~$900 annually.
Looking at the big picture, the most expensive thing stateside is ignorance, same as anywhere.
In general I would say that many folks want too much, have no idea what most things should cost, and end up seriously overpaying. Unfortunately they tend to be a loud minority. My wife and I grew up poor and have no interest in being so again, nor in having to work through old age. We live very well on 40% of my income, pay cash for everything but houses, do our own taxes and most of our home/vehicle/other repairs, read/research expenses and shop around, and are more than halfway to being millionaires despite getting a late start on savings eleven years ago. I honestly don't believe I would be nearly as well off if I'd lived anywhere overseas.What availability rate do you need for the grid to be "trusted?" Detroit here is the worst area I've lived in stateside for power, various sections lose 1-3 days of power every year. I find it a mild annoyance but not a huge deal, traffic jams and other occurrences impact life more.
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
See that, even in an ex soviet country is exceptionally bad.
Last time there was a power cut in our area for more than 12 hours was 4 years ago. We maybe get 1 cut a year of over 8 hours and less then 10 a year of up to 4 hours.
For me its trusted if you don't have to worry that all the food in your freezer is going to go rotten. Not very scientific I know but that gives a general tolerance.
Oh if they ever do ruin everything in my freezer I just have to take pictures of the old stuff and pics of the new and a receipt and I will get the cash back off the grid. Also if the grid spikes out voltage and blows up your router of other electronics you can claim for that getting fixed as well. Again its not happened to me yet because I have put over voltage protection etc in my place because a few people in the area have had dead electronics. And looking at the log on my solar inverter things are not that stable to be honest.
Last time there was a power cut in our area for more than 12 hours was 4 years ago. We maybe get 1 cut a year of over 8 hours and less then 10 a year of up to 4 hours.
For me its trusted if you don't have to worry that all the food in your freezer is going to go rotten. Not very scientific I know but that gives a general tolerance.
Oh if they ever do ruin everything in my freezer I just have to take pictures of the old stuff and pics of the new and a receipt and I will get the cash back off the grid. Also if the grid spikes out voltage and blows up your router of other electronics you can claim for that getting fixed as well. Again its not happened to me yet because I have put over voltage protection etc in my place because a few people in the area have had dead electronics. And looking at the log on my solar inverter things are not that stable to be honest.
- Thread starter
- #378
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Here in SoCal, at least since Enron is no longer in the picture, the worst thing that we can expect is to have our AC cycled more than once of twice a week during the hotter parts of Summer, late August - early September.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
See John that would be deemed trusted to me.
If you compare that with your apartment in Riga do you have other expectations then?
I agree trusted is as you say, not having to worry about food being destroyed or water systems frozen.
Anything that gives you a extra cost.
For me living in an apartment in "town" we might 4-5 power outages per year of total sum of max 1-2 hours.
Same thing here if they are to long you get deduction on price and you can claim coverage for destroyed things, no layers involved.
Best regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
I agree trusted is as you say, not having to worry about food being destroyed or water systems frozen.
Anything that gives you a extra cost.
For me living in an apartment in "town" we might 4-5 power outages per year of total sum of max 1-2 hours.
Same thing here if they are to long you get deduction on price and you can claim coverage for destroyed things, no layers involved.
Best regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
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