Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... 38

[waross]

So I am not sure what is lacking here or where there is a glitch in the system, something is missing.

This is Texas.
Fiercely independent.
Fiercely de regulated/self regulated.
Fiercely free enterprise.
And the rich get richer.
De regulation of a public utility is always`s preceded by an expensive public relations campaign tio convince consumers that de regulation will save them money.
Then the rates go up.
And the rich get richer.


Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[FacEngrPE]

The European grid is not immune to upsets that could create edge cases for the market.

January 9, 2021, 8 a.m. On Friday, shortly after 2 p.m., the alarm bells rang at the operator of the Austrian high-voltage lines, APG. Several power plants, including probably a Danube power plant in south-eastern Europe, have apparently suddenly gone offline. Suddenly, huge amounts of energy are missing. The power frequency drops. The European power grid is wavering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_European_blackout

How the European power markets would respond to an extended period of supply constraint that required shedding load has never been (and hopefully never will be) tested. In the above events the utility response was appropriate and the resulting outage period was in one case limited to a few localities, in the other the outage was widespread, but fairly short.

There are other examples - it seems when the lesson is painful enough it gets remembered. It is as true in Europe as it is in the US.

Fred

 

[Fischstabchen]

Waross,

Most of the people in the U.S. live in deregulated regions. People here want to make it about being deregulated when it is the most common arrangement and it isn't a Texas thing.

 

[human909]

The market failed because supply of electricity could not be made to meet demand AT ANY PRICE.

Exactly. The system was broken in many ways. Ultimately this is as much a failure of the regulation.

When the bulk of power users pay a fixed rate for their power consumption, intra day changes only affect producers and the few users that do pay a sliding rate. Having caps at a more reasonable level would be more equitable. Big consumers like industry 'should' be incentivized to be on variable rate. This might already be the case in Texas, I don't know...

In my state the main coal power plant has recently announced that it is shutting down earlier than expected (still 7 years away). The main reason is that power prices have crashed due to wind and solar. Dealing with dispersed and variable renewable electricity generation is a challenge many countries are and increasingly will be facing. It is an engineering, economic and regulatory challenge. Texas is how not to do it.

 

[Fischstabchen]

Human909,

You do realize there were rolling blackouts in Oklahoma and Louisiana for the same reasons as in Texas.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Market doesn't really work when after something like this most of your customers don't exist anymore and you are extremely unlikely to realise any of the peak money that you are entitled to.

It seems that ERCOTS can just shrug its shoulders and say they didn't pay us so we are not going to pay you.

Must admit I can see the reason why a substantial number of domestic Texans are going off grid. If your norm is power cuts which last longer than 3 hours and days of no power you have to do something. So the residential market will have shrunk again. They don't actually see much benefit residentially for Texas cheap energy its 8% less than average compared to the rest of the USA. Unlike the commercial users where its 35% cheaper. Which stinks to me that the little people are getting screwed anyway.

One person in the solar groups has been told because there are only 4 houses left on the radial that they won't be fixed for nearly 3 weeks. The other 20 or so are all now off grid with power. But they have been told it will be 5 months before the paper work will be approved if they installed solar tomorrow. And it will be a staggering 35k USD for a 10 kW system with crappy microinverters and no battery.

Even in ex soviet countries we do get power cuts mainly due to things failing but just checked we haven't had longer than 9 hours in 5 years.

BTW I think central Europe there will be a major crash in the not so distant future as well. Which will cause major political issues because certain countries will cut all the inter connects and look after themselves unless it originates in their back yard. This is a western world issue not just USA or Texas.

 

[Fischstabchen]

Allstair,

I don't know what you expect to get for 35k. Batteries are extremely expensive as backup power. A 90kwh bank will cost you 15-20k. You could buy a small generator for 1/30 the cost of a battery bank.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

My 8.5 kW inverter plus 9.61 kWp of panels cost 13k USD including all the paperwork and installation and was turned on when they left the site.

My second inverter which will going in this year 8.5 kW and 40 panels 12.8 kWp is going to cost 7k USD but its going to be a DIY installation.

My battery is in the same range of price but its LiFe4Po good for 25 years and 95% discharge instead of the wet cell banks of requiring only 50% discharge and replace the cells every 5 years.

Anyway the 35k was without battery it was 10 kWp of panels with enphase IRQ7+ and monitoring system plus roof racking and rapid shut down.

There is an organised lobbied set of regulations to make solar as expensive as possible to the small people. There is money to be made but very little of it is allowed to be made by the end user.

And they are rolling out regs so that your house will be condemned for unfit for human habitation if you go off grid. But the work round for that is have the fridge connected to the grid and run everything else off grid. But then they apply minimum billing and increase the connection fee. So you end up paying 1200 USD a year anyway to run just a fridge.

I might add the hardware I use is pretty much the same price as in the USA. Its the installation cost and approval which nearly triples the price.

 

[RedSnake]

How would the Swedish electricity market respond when enough power cannot be provided to meet demand? <assuming interconnections at borders are closed off, I.e. supply is finite, demand is effectively infinite.>

I am not shore if this answers your question..

Svenska kraftnät provides a fixed remuneration for the resources in accordance with the agreement entered into.
Upon activation, variable compensation is paid.
The costs for power reserves are paid through an additional fee on the consumption of companies responsible for the balance, excluding network losses in networks subject to concession.

The additional fee is charged weekdays between 06 - 22 during the period 16 November - 15 March.
The additional fee is charged to finance Svenska kraftnät's procurement and management of the power reserve.

How does it work when the power reserve is activated in the regulating power market?
To avoid power shortages in the electrical system, the power reserve can be activated for the power balance.
Activation and deactivation of bids takes place by Svenska kraftnät calling the contact specified by the plant owner.
It can be, for example, a balance manager or an operations center.

The offer can be activated and deactivated by Svenska kraftnät during the entire delivery hour.
The management is based on the guidelines that the Nordic system operators transmission network companies have jointly developed:
"Guidelines for implementation of transitional peak load arrangements"

https://eepublicdownloads.azureedge...ementationTransitionalPeakLoadArrangement.pdf

The power reserve is called up only after all commercial bids have been accepted.
Power reserve and the day before market
The power reserve is put into Nord Pool by Svenska kraftnät and it is only called off if there is a risk of shortening.

Today, only Fingrid in Finland and Svenska kraftnät in Sweden procure power reserves for cold winters in the Nordic countries.

How is the production part of the power reserve priced on the day before the market?
When activating the power reserve at Nord Pool, the power reserve price is set at the ceiling price at Nord Pool, which is 3000 Euro / MWh.

Best Regard A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Its not actually that much different apart from the amount of the power cap being half as much.

The only country in Europe that I know that has a system setup for selective load shedding down to system at consumer level is Germany which is why I can see something similar happening in central Europe.

 

[RedSnake]

I am not shore if we are taking about the same thing here.

System setup for selective load shedding down to system at consumer level.

The so-called power reserve is created by entering into agreements with players in the electricity market.

On the one hand, we can enter into agreements with electricity producers who have reserve power plants.
Then the agreement is about the electricity producer to contribute with additional electricity production.

On the one hand, we can enter into agreements with large electricity users and electricity trading companies, but then it is instead a matter of them reducing their electricity consumption.

The power reserve must be available between 16 November and 15 March, ie during the coldest season.

If above fails the same way as in Texas, there is a system for rolling blackouts (shedding) too.
It have never happened yet.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The system they have in Germany is that they can directly shed power from consumer systems selectively. I think they can also power stuff up as well. There are pots scrap iron in arc smelters on standby to soak up power if required. They cycle the production pots to keep everything hot soaked so no cracking. But as one comes empty its loaded up on standby and then left while another one goes prime production. Sites can loose high power systems but the rest of it can stay on. If there is things that would break then they go to reduced power mode or stay on. Building thermostats get reduced or air con turned off.

Robot production lines finish the job up to a point then stop etc.

They can also trigger hospital/airport backup generators so they are ready if a cut does occur. It generates a bigger window to get things fired up producing power and can quickly get rid of load in seconds if required.

They got absolutely hammered a couple of times with frequency drop when all inverters went off line at 49.8 HZ so they put through that retrospective change that they had to continue producing down to 49.3hz and all the ripple recovery stuff kicks in at 49.5hz or something like that. I think they still go off line at 50.2 though.

It was years ago it was explained to me and I only really understood it when I put my own solar in and was looking at the ripple receiver functions for my inverter.

 

[davefitz]

In addition to all the above, it is feasible to develop and implement smarter meters and load centers that will runback demand of individual households based on real time economic inputs from the ISO, and in extreme events,runback demand during supply disruptions. Prioritizing household demands such that high priority, low demand loads never suffer a "blackout" such as overhead lights, alarms , and furnace fans. Lowest priorites are assigned to high load items such as dryers, ovens, EV rechargers, etc. Finally, the EV batteries can be used to power the high priority loads in the event of a blackout.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I think the KNX system does all that stuff already dave for industry and its slowly going into new apartment blocks but no requirement for houses.

To add all the solar inverters have reactive power control as well and they can tell them to go to 0.8 lagging through to 0.8 leading again all from the central control room. They can also trigger them to release the battery to supply the grid at max discharge which is completely illegal and impossible to do without the control room releasing it.

 

[LittleInch]

This is good reading if you're into all this.

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=474711

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[RedSnake]

We do a lot of saving power stuff at the factory.
I reprogramed the cooling pumps so they stop when the cooling isn't needed and starts when it is necessary.
But this has nothing to do with the power grid.
We just do not want to pay for power if we do not have to

I think one difference is that here
According to the Electricity Act, an electricity supplier is obliged to deliver as much electricity as its customers consume.

And all power companies have a very good picture of how every costumers power consumption looks.
I can go back years and see the difference buy month, I guess the power company actually can se it by the hour.

Since we have much hydro power, that is what is used to balance the wind power and the solar energi and the high peaks.
It is mostly the hydro companies that build new wind power stations and offers solar cell solutions.
They have the means to balance it and uphold the Electricity Act.
For a company that only have wind power production this can be difficult, what they could do is have less costumers and sell the extra on the market, or make deals with another power provider that can garanti the balancing when needed.

If an effect shutdown (rolling blackouts) should be necessary.
This is decided locally in each region together with the transmission company how to proceed with premade planes.
The hospital and the district heating plant will probably be excluded.
The first thing that comes of line is the industries, if they are dissatisfied not our problem, they can get their own backup power if necessary.
15 minutes heads up an then we cut the power.
Households are switched on and off at intervals based on how long the indoor temperature can be kept above 0 degrees.
Let say 3 hours without power then another area becomes without electricity for 3 hours while the first area gets the power back and so on until the problem is resolved.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[cranky108]

Wind energy and solar providers here don't need to worry about balancing the grid. And that is part of the problem. They are provided tax breaks for installing a non-stable resource, and a place to sell it, with no need to balance that resource. On the other hand, ERCOT is required to balance that without the ability to make requirements, only cost for what they will pay. The assumption is the grid market is perfect and the price will make an incentive to bring more conventional generation when required.

The other side is the energy provider is only out to make money, so will do the least to get the best cost for the energy. Thus, freeze proofing is a cost that no one thought was needed.

On the third, the gas supply was assumed to be available for gas generation, and no fuel storage would be required. Just in time delivery works most of the time, and no inventory lowers the cost of fuel.

Although we have seen many times where just in time delivery, in other industries, has caused problems when deliveries can't be made on time, we continue to go that route in the electric industry, with depending on gas to always be there.

 

[waross]

De-regulation campaigns always promise better service and lower prices for consumers.
And the checks is the mail.
And the rich get richer.

There is more than one way that a free market may function.
Prices may be bid and set ahead of time.
Base loads producers may be required to operate at 80% capacity.
That would guarantee spinning reserves.
When the grid demanded that lest 20% the price would be greater but not unreasonable.
That is, a system based on the interests of of the consumers, not the profits of the producers.
What happens when a producer is unable to supply the contracted power?
Penalties; Not enough to bankrupt but enough to make winterization cost effective.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[1503-44]

Not much chicken makes it to the dinner table when the fox is running the henhouse.
When will we ever learn? When will we ...

 

[Fischstabchen]

Waross,

You are grossly over simplifying things with your statements that deregulation is bad. There are a lot of expensive to run generators that only exist in regulated regions. A deregulated market shifts the risk associated with changing fuel prices or the emergence of "better" generation to investors from the public. There are more than a few nuclear power plants that are operating in regulated regions when in a unregulated region they would be competing with wind, solar, and natural gas in the market, all of which can often generate at half the cost of nuclear. Most in this thread want green generation but that won't happen quickly if inexpensive wind and solar isn't allowed to squeeze the other generators out in the market.