Support the red yellow and blue 1

[oceanamber]

In the political madness and spin that surrounds the U.K. and its envolvement in Europe the political numbties who run the ship have managed to slip an amazing piece of legislation through that seems to have been accepted. For many years the U.K. has used RED, YELLOW and BLUE to represent L1, L2 and L3 of a 3 phase system with BLACK for neutral. O.K. we may be different to other places but these colours are everywhere. Cables, distribution boards, busbars, pylons, equipment, labelling around buildings - absolutely everywhere. The new legislation changes these colours so that red becomes brown, yellow becomes black (oops that used to be neutral) blue becomes grey and finally the old black now becomes blue. Am I alone in thinking that this harmonisation is not only totally unecessary but dangerous in the extreme.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I'm not in the UK, and I don't want to come off as bashing the UK, but it doesn't make sense to me, at least on the surface. I agree it does sound potentially dangerous, not just because of new colors, but primarily because of the redefinition of existing colors.

To be fair, why was this legislation proposed and subsequently passed?

 

[jmw]

Harmonisation is as much a game of politics as it is of sound engineering practise.

All is not necessarily lost, however. The original British water meter standard for clase a, b & c utility meters became the foundation of the new European standard. Perhaps surprised by this the British then imposed a new classification (d)for water meters unique to the UK.

JMW

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[corus]

Harmonisation with the rest of europe, and possibly the rest of the world, is nothing new. The introduction of the metric system and the change over from Fahrenheit to Celcius are two well known changes that have been made in the UK, something that the Daily Mail and UKIP haven't picked up on yet.

corus

 

[oceanamber]

Agree with JMW that harmonisation is generally good engineering practice but not when you are replacing an established system that has been around for years. In 30 or 40 years time there will still be distribution boards with the old colours on and the electrician will need to remember to connect his blue wire to the neutral and not to the blue phase connection of the board. The legislation gives us a transistion period between March 2004 and 2006 where either harmonised or non-harmonised colours can be used dependant on it being a new installation but not a mix of colours. Its all a bit vague about what we do in 2006 - do we start mixing colours then. There will be accidents due to this legislation and unfortunately electricians will either die or be injured during the course of their work. I really can't understand the merits of doing this.

 

[jmw]

In the EU there is a problem with latitude.
In the more southern latitudes they take rather more latitude with the rules, if you see what I mean.

Thus in the northern countries if the rules say black is neutral, then it will be neutral, until someone agrees on a new rule.

In Greece, or at least on some of the islands, I have noted with some reservations, the presence of 110vAC sockets actually in the shower cubicle.
Electricians appear to adopt their own individual conventions when wiring houses (or used to...?) as this meant that when anything went wrong, you had to call the electrician who wired the house and not someone else.

I am curious to know whether there will be an added longitude problem with the May arrival of so many former East block countries.

This isn't just wiring, by the way. It applies to everything.

The phrase "The rules are for the guidance of wise men and the observance of fools" has many meanings in Europe.

JMW

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[ScottyUK]

There is a 1-page article by the chairman* of the NIC-EIC, one of the UK's electrical contactor approval organisations, in the latest Power Engineer journal published by the IEE. One statement which stuck out was that he couldn't see any significant risk arising from wiring errors caused by incorrectly mixing the old and new wiring colour schemes. Perhaps he missed the possibility of 415V appearing at socket outlets, or the possibility of running 3-phase motors with a severe voltage imbalance (415-240-240). These mistakes should not occur, but man being the fallible creature that he is, they will occur. They will even happen to NIC-EIC members, because the membership is also made up of fallible human beings.

*I think he was chairman - last night is a lot of beers ago!

Part of the article which I found really concerning was that the insidious European Community had managed to get our unseeing, unknowing, political overlords to agree to a clause which forced harmonisation upon us, otherwise our UK standard BS7671 regulations would become de-recognised by the Eurocracy. I don't think that fact has been well publicised. I wonder how many other instances of EC meddling are hidden away from the public eye?

Harmonisation in this instance does not even bring overall economic benefits to UK cable users, because the flat twin & earth cable widely used in domestic and light commercial installations is unique to the UK!





------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[jmw]

This isn't the same as the change from imperial to metric in plumbing. It was a real pig mixing all those old and new pipes but there adaptors were available (at premium prices, of course).

Wiring is a bit differetn and perhaps, Oceanamber, you can enlighten us as to how the powers that be envisage the introduction of this legislation?

If the new standard is put in place, will it require:
1) that any existing wiring will not need to be replaced but it may not be added to.
2) any new wiring must be to the new standards and if added to an existing scheme then all wiring including the existing wiring, must be brought to the new standard.

That way, the integrity of any wiring scheme can be assured: it will either be all to the old scheme or all to the new scheme.

That then leads to an infinite poetential for profiteering.

The success of decimialisation of the currency was such a wonderful ploy for increasing prices through rounding up prices and changing package sizes (to make sure the less bright couldn't quite figure out how much of the price hike was due to rounding up and how much due to quantity change) that they want to have a repeat in the UK by changing from an already reasonably good deciaml curecny scheme to a new decimal currency scheme called the Euro. Fortunately, we have seen the French and the Germans try this and whinge like crazy about the profiteering.

So, now is the time to become an electrician.
Any simple job instantly becomes a full rewiring operation! "New light love? yeah, no problem but I'm going have to re-wire your whole house. It ain't me lady, blame the govermint. Now let's see, that'll be "£20, no £30k, no wait a minute, call it £40k."

JMW

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[oceanamber]

Thanks JMW

I remember the conversion from Imperial to metric pipe size together with some of the problems it caused. Apart from getting very cheesed off the only real risk to the plumber was death by drowning which was unlikely to be quick!

Harmonisation started in the U.K. many years ago when the red, black and green in power cords was changed to brown, blue and green/yellow. It was argued that because the colours weren't duplicated it was unlikely there would be too many issues. Brown was like red when viewed at night, blue was sort of cold like neutral and green/yellow still had a bit of green in it. It was then found that most people either could not change a plug or kept getting the colours mixed up so now all portable appliances sold in the U.K. have to have a fitted plug and mysteriously the colours are seldom seen.

The new harmonised colours came in on 1st April 2004 (very apt) and permit the installer to use either harmonised or non-harmonised on a new installation. This also includes the sparkies favourite flat twin and earth which changes from red and black to brown and blue. Now imagine a D.I.Y. guy and a ceiling rose! Check new I.E.E. regs and on site guide (brown cover)

From 31st March 2006 the harmonised colours are mandatory.

To extend an existing installation a single phase system needs warning notices at each end to warn that the colours used through the system will change i.e. red at the board mysteriously changes along route to brown!

3 phase installations must be marked at all ends with L1, L2 L3 and N.

Our experts assure us this is a good safe way forward.

 

[jmw]

At least I now have some dea of what "expert" means (apart from a large discussion group with conflicting views and less ability to compromise than the EU).

The prospect of mixed systems is quite alarming.

Labels have a habit of (a) not being read (how many languages do they have to be in) and (b) falling off.

However, these harmonisations usually take something like a century to be discussed (it seems that way) and then, despite all the advance warning, spring to prominance that has everyone blinking like rabbits in the headlights.

Despite the 7 or more years prior knowledge of the impending ATEX requirements, many companies still missed the deadlines for changeover.

It's a sad old world.

JMW

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[Ahr35181]

Where I work, we were planning to change over later this year, but have been forced to change over has from now because our cable supplier has depleted stocks of the ‘old’ colours.

I bet the IEE never thought of this when giving the two years grace!!!

Alan

 

[oceanamber]

alan

heard from a sales rep yesterday that the first death had occurred as a direct result of this madness. Again I need to check but I believe only another 2 countries have subscribed to this madness. I find it sad that our own I.E.E. (institute of electrical engineers) didn't block this on grounds of safety.

Noticed in a hospital the other day a socket with the reference E1/R4. Seems to me that this could be dist board E1 from way R4. Do we relabel this lot? E1/B4 could that a blue one that got missed or a black one that has been done. Once again the numpties have plunged us into unnecessary danger.

As regards your cable supplier I would suggest you kick him into touch and go with someone who can supply the non-harmonised stuff.

 

[jmw]

I am curious to know why it matters that our wiring codes and colours differ from other countries.
I mean, it's not as if a factory will one day get up and move to France and find itself confused.
If ever there were anything truly local, i would have though it had to be the wiring in a static building.

Sure, there are good reasons for harmonising some aspects such as power supplies, but who needs this with universal power supplies. Far more concenring is the need for a bunch of power and telephone adaptors when I take my computer overseas. But the wiring colours? The UK plug is quoite distinct from the European or US. So what does it really matter?


JMW

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[Ahr35181]

oceanamber,

Rather than using BN, BK & GY (we previously used R,Y & B) in circuit
reference labels, cable tags & core tags, we will be using L1,L2 & L3 for
phase identification & N for neutral (as these are un-changed).

Therefore an addition to circuit E1/R4 in the hospital mentioned would be
labelled E1/4-L1

I contacted the cable manufacturer direct with our problem in obtaining the ‘old’ cables & was informed……………

“80% of orders now being received are for cables with new core colours. As
such it is not economically viable for us and other manufacturers to
duplicate stock. However we can still manufacture cables with old core
colours but these orders will be subject to minimum manufacturing
quantities, manufacturing lead-times and a 15% price premium over standard
products. This should be known by your supplier.”

In other words because of the demand for the new cables, the old type is 15% more expensive & you’ll have to wait for it, therefore not a viable option in a competitive market.

Fortunately we was ready for the change, but didn’t expect it to be forced on us unknowingly, the contractors didn’t realise until they began to terminate cables on a new installation!!!!

Alan

 

[QCE]

Why don't we all us the metric system? Why don't we all drive on the same side of the road? Why don't we all speak the same language? Why don't we all use the same wire coloring (or colouring depending on were you are from)?

Some things should be different, so things should be changed to make them the same. Some people will resist the change, some will cheer it on. Most of us will roll along. This is progress!?!?

 

[jmw]

So, we already can't get old style wiring.

So does that mean that when someone is adding a new circuit they are also re-wrining all the old circuits?

I guess not.

Is it a recipe for disaster? I would guess so but since i haven't seen the IEEE handbook, or the guide to it or the guide to the guide, for some years (15th edition was it?), far less the actual new standard, I have no idea how carefully they considered theese issues and the risks nor what precautions, training, inspection etc they recommend.

Standards can and should change as part of the process of improvement. Indeed, in another thread I wonder if some standards don't persist too long and actually stifle change.

I have been concerned here by the question of why this particular change has been necessary or important, except to the wire manufacturers i.e. those who manufacture wire on the continent and who can now sell it to the UK.

But, before I get too taken with an ill-informed rant, can those that know adress any of these points?


JMW

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Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

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[ruggedscot]

Noticed in a hospital the other day a socket with the reference E1/R4. Seems to me that this could be dist board E1 from way R4. Do we relabel this lot? E1/B4 could that a blue one that got missed or a black one that has been done. Once again the numpties have plunged us into unnecessary danger.

First question - why were you in the hospital ? One of the first victims ? (;-))

Yes this is going to be a huge concern to any electrician here in the UK - We have loads of DB's over the country that have circuit charts marked up and noted with phase colours forming part of the circuit designation...

DB 214 R15 (25A)
DB 154 Y8 (6A)

so as you can imagine it is going to be an interesting time. Dont want to think of the number of near misses and accidents thats going to happen with this one - Blue changing from phase to neutral and black going from neutral to phase, a complete mess if you ask me. Harmonisation for what reason ? How often do we as sparkies in the UK twaddle off to France to fit a socket ? and twin and earth doesnt feature very much in europe although Ive seen it over in canada, white black and bare earth, at least black is a phase so maybe the US shouyld harmoise with Europe !


Rugged

 

[oceanamber]

No I wasn't a victim to this madness but I did have time on my hands - quite a lot when you start looking carefully at switchfuses.

Although this should not happen, according to the regs, installations are going ahead with a mix of colours. The confusion in a cable trunking system could be interesting.

I believe the new colours only affect L.V. wiring i.e. up to 1000V and beyond that the old colours i.e. red, yellow and blue remain. So the red phase of a transformer becomes brown phase.

We are now being told to label things up with L1,L2 and L3 as well as the colour.

Do the powers that be have shares in the funeral parlour industry?

Cheers guys and remember don't touch the black wire!!