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Smart Grid 19

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Benefits of Smart Meters:
- ability to read remotely (cheaper)(Who will pay the bill for the meters)
- ability to easily disconnect people who don't pay their bills (Correct but who will maintain the equipment)
- prevents certain types of power theft (If they can stole the power they can always do no matter smart meter or not
- makes time of use rates possible/flexible (We tried in China in 1990s it did not work)
- allows users to see details of their power usage (via web interfaces, etc)(90% of customer don't carefull the details but the total)

Any thing new?
 
"I don't know where you get your information, but that isn't true. Our winter morning peaks wouldn't be in the 0500-0700 range if that were true. We've also watched out summer peaks track the growth in residential air conditioning. Residential can make a major difference."

Could be on top of the other loads
 
You're right that the utilities will benefit from smart metering. However, there are some theoretical benefits for customers:
- less outages (due to better grid management / faster restoration)(I think mixed outages and restoration time) forced outages can not be avoided)
- lower costs due to:
- cheaper meter reads
- less power plants due to load shifting (???????????? Are you sure )
- less grid equipment (being run closer to limits)(Nobody runs grid to teh limits)

All your statements are textbooks ideas.



 
I think people get hung up on the 'Smart Grid' thing because of the term, which is purely a marketing thing. 'Smart Grid' isn't really anything new, it's just a continuation of the trends that have been going on for the last 20 years and which are happening faster and faster due to digital technology.

Consider the technology that has changed in the last 2-3 decades on distribution systems:
- GIS, OMS systems
- SCADA data at substations (and increasingly in the field)
- multifunction digital relays
- fiber optic communications
- sophisticated billing systems etc.
Everything that's being said about the so-called 'Smart Grid' technologies was said about these but today virtually every utility, even small coops, have most of these technologies in place.

The following trends are happening right now:
- data collection at any point in the system (smart meters, MDM, more SCADA)
- remote control of more and more field devices
- DMS systems and closed-loop control of voltage regulation devices and switching
- more and smaller distributed generation (for both technical and political/social reasons)

Up to now the changes have been incremental, but my prediction (for what it's worth!) is that in the next decade or two we're going to see a huge growth in local energy storage. When this happens the changes in the distribution business will be dramatic because we can finally break the coupling between generation and demand. Even fairly small levels of power storage will lead to microgrids, increased choice in energy supply, better ability to integrate poor generation sources (like wind), etc.


Will it be cheaper for customers? - no.
Will it happen anyway? - yes.
 
Personally, I'm sure around here the government is paying a large chunk of the meter installation costs in the name of improvement and the utilities are just playing along because it'll make the collection side of things much easier for them once they can stop manually reading meters.

The new peak rate structure is this.

Code: 
Time Period              ¢/kWh 
7 am to 11 am Mid-Peak   8.0 
11 am to 5 pm On-Peak    9.9 
5 pm to 9 pm Mid-Peak    8.0 
Weekends & Holidays      5.3

I guess only time will tell if residential customers are willing to shift their usage. I might install a timer or 2. Presently, the ¢/kWh portion of my bill is about 1/3 of the total bill, so these price changes really won't have a huge impact. If other TOD demand charges are added as well then I can see taking more care.

 
"Has anyone consitered that much of the smart grid stuff is just a marketing scheme to get utility executives to fund marginal projects."

Like Broadband over PowerLines????
 
Lionel,

What's the rate between 2100 and 0700, is it 5.3 ?

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
 
I agree with the gist of what redfurry said in his last post (3 May 10, 16:30). I just don't have the patience to write that much.

Business and market absorb the best available technology available that meets business objectives and to that degree it is already happening. As for smart home meters, it not a matter of whether or not they work or whether they any better, but if they are needed. The answer is probably not, otherwise they would have been already embraced by the utility companies. They are in the business to make money too. If the customer wants to cut down his bills, he needs to find his own ways, utility or any other business is not going to do it for them.





Rafiq Bulsara
 
Biginch - yes, 5.3.

I'm wathcing to see if other items that are billed go to a time of day structure. The difference between 5.3 cents and 8 cents or even 9.9 cents will change my bill maybe about $10 to $12 a month if I do not time shift any loads.
 
I get more and more invitations to join seminars and meetings where the Smart Grid (or SG as even the DOE calls it these days).

I then remebered the outage around seven years ago (thread238-67677) and the discussion that followed. I was told that my ideas were unrealistic and not pratical and too expensive. What we see today is much more than I proposed or thought possible.

Anything we can learn from that?

Gunnar Englund
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
 
Personally I believe this thing has the potential, in the eyes of the voters, to make the 55 MPH speed limit look small.
 
I've seen some seminar programs lately that make it look something like 220 VAC internet is on the way.

**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
 
on the way .. out. Makes sense from what I've seen so far.



**********************
"The problem isn't finding the solution, its trying to get to the real question." BigInch
 
Wow, a couple of statements here just make me shake my head.

Residential peaks are inconsequential? What the? That is total nonsense! Our modest sized utility peaks just when you think it would, when people are getting ready to go to school and work, i.e. around 0800. I added a control area load plot that shows that behavior.

Obviously there are many variables involved with peaking conditions such as temperature, etc. The attached plot is indicative of a pure non-heating/non-cooling load behavior. Our temperatures are in the mid-60's right now. Note the ~500 MW swing that occurs. Presently we are peaking at the start of the business day--when it gets warmer we will see peaks around 1700-1800 or so.

Anyway, there are some really incorrect statements made about load behavior on this posting by people who must not be in the business of generating electricity. Hopefully this plot helps people understand the load behavior (which has numerous personalities to say the least).

No question on smart grid--it is political. However, that IS the reality of the world right now.
 
 http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=9020096d-e440-47d2-9551-c7a7d31aaf35&file=control_area_load.jpg
Do not confuse energy consumption, size of loads, system capacity, etc. with peak demand management.



Rafiq Bulsara
 
Energy consumption IS the driver of peak demand management! If you work at a utility you simply review historical SCADA information, plot your peaks, figure out what load components drive that peak, and manage accordingly. Every utility is different.

I suspect that you do NOT work at a utility since you tend to make blanket categorical statements. As I stated before, load behavior is influenced by many factors. Every utility is different as far as when peaks occur, and those peaks occur at different times throughout the year. Your statement that "residential peak is inconsequential" is simply incorrect. There may be some utilities where that is the case, however, as a general statement it is utterly false. As noted by others, and by myself, residential load behavior is absolutely a component of peak load (for certain service territories) and therefore, the management of peak load. Our total system peaks are driven by A/C and resistive heating loads--those peaks occur not during the middle of the day, but rather the shoulder hours when people start going home.

You need to support your statements with empirical evidence. Do YOU have any data to share?
 
Energy consumption IS the driver of peak demand management!
Click to expand...
.

That ends my interest for the discussion. Perhaps, all those utility companies, are dumb that they do not charge or care for demand on residential meters.

Rafiq Bulsara
 
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