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Smart Grid 19

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No we're not dumb. We just realize that individual residential demand is not so variable that we need a more expensive meter to accurately capture it and charge separately for it. All wrapped up in the energy and basic charges. Same with power factor.

And it doesn't matter whether or not an individual residence is hitting its peak coincidentally with the grid. We can still cut the grid demand by preventing the water heater in that residence from cycling during that period even if nothing else is on in the house. The customer incentive would not be to reduce their demand charge, it would be to take advantage of a lower load control rate.

Please mark me down as being in favor of smart metering, both as a utility engineer and as a utility customer.
 
This only shows that accountants do have a place in engineering, after all! They are an effective counterbalance to some madness.

Another fact that goes against this smart meters for homes is that it is completely against the life style and expectations of the citizens, especially in the USA (and other developed worlds too). Shutting off individual residential power to manage demand is not an option (except in case of emergencies). If we come to that point, we will install new generation and capacity because we can. Asking to turn off a home water heater to manage demand or even save energy, is like asking Americans to give up cars to minimize carbon foot print, money or energy!!!

We all are excited to talk about being green and all, but going back to horse-carts is not an option, even if that is the greenest solution, including the dropping of the horses!

( I clarify Again, demand management has little do with energy savings.)


Rafiq Bulsara
 
Ah, now that is a useful statement. Demand management has little to do with energy savings in aggregate--absolutely true. Shaving peaks off tends to fill in the valleys on a load curve.

However, if you have ever purchased wholesale power in a perturbed energy market you will soon realize that demand management saves MONEY. If a utility does not have to either run expensive peakers or buy expensive wholesale power to cover a peak then that utility saves real dollars.
 
If you don't also cut off industrial, and commercial customers when you cut off residential customers, what exactly would you expect to happen?

At some point the residential customers will reason that since they pay more for electricty, they should have priority (sort of line natural gas). And because residential customers are normally also voters, they will over time get there way.

The only way that I see to make cutting off hotwater heaters, or air equipment is to make a transfer of money. This maybe a rate discount, or a peak time energy charge.
 
My utility (Excel in the US) offers a 15% discount on summer electrical bills in exchange for the privilege of installing a switch which will shut off my air conditioning (for a max of 1 hour at a time I think).

So, they obviously think that residential demand management is valuable (I doubt they're doing it just for fun), and are willing to offer the customer a deal to do so.
 
That's because it's to tehir benefit:
> No need to increase production
> No need to add transmission lines
> No irate corporate customers; while residential customers are voters, corporate customers are donors. Guess which one speak louder, particularly since the Supreme Court has ruled that a company has unlimited contributions.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
 
Corporate and industrial customers are already, an rightly so, part of the demand management. But not by force, but by offering them monetary incentives. Look up "Demand Response Programs". It works, because most industries, hospitals, and other large users have standby power generation on hand and they are willing use them, given a monetary incentive. This programs are offered to even a small customer with stand by generation, where it makes sense.

Even that has to qualify as an "emergency" measure, to allow to run standby generations spewing CO2 and NOXs.

Turning off power automatically to any one, even industrial customers, is not an option in the USA. We manage demand for maximizing use of the existing installations for economic reasons and not because we are poor and have no other alternative. Any "smarts" required for such demand management is already in use without calling them smarts.

Rafiq Bulsara
 
So is the smart grid thing a manaditory thing, or will we have a choice? I know how it is now, but what will it become?

I also don't understand how, or why so many people actually think the electric cars will be used to power the grid during mid days. It will take a two way inverter, and a communications medium, as well as a payback rate that everyone involved (utility, and car owner) thinks is fair.
 
Ya. There are no cars running around except at rush hours?

I see it like, everybody gets home, turns up the HVAC, flick the lights on, and plugs in their car batteries... making the residential peak that much worse.

**********************
"Being GREEN isn't easy" ..Kermit the [frog]
 
Lets see, you get home, turn on the HVAC, the TV, the lights, and plug in your car.

A moment latter the smart meter shuts off your HVAC, and the charger for your car. And maybe thell expand it to also turn off your lights, and TV.

That will feel good the sit is a nice hot house, in the dark, with no TV. How fast can you call yor congressman?
Oh, thats right, since your phone will be tied to your computer it won't work either.

That progress.
 
Smart meter talks to smart thermostat via Zigbee to have your house pre-cooled/heated when you get home. This is done on a rolling basis so that all HVAC units do not cycle together. When you plug in the car, inverter checks battery state, and if sufficient begins discharging it to offset the use of TV and lights. Later on when the TVs and lights are off and the t-stat is in setback mode, car battery is fully charged in time for the morning commute. When called, congressman will kindly ask you speak to the utility regarding their other more expensive offerings.
 
cranky108:
We and those before us, the lesser mortals, could not do it with just the battery/inverters/chargers on the garage floor, but now that smart people have invented the smart battery holder called the electric car, it will work now!! Stay tuned.

Rafiq Bulsara
 
I only wish things can be so rosey. But working for a utility for so many years has made me a realist.

Wind hasen't become anywhere near as promised, so why should any of us believe that smart grid will also.

Everytime I hear the tv ad about the wind on the plains, I wonder why those people by the sea are awake that late at night (joke is the wind on the plains blows mainly at night).

 
Turning off power automatically to any one, even industrial customers, is not an option in the USA.
Click to expand...
Interruptible industrial rates are common in the SE USA. The utility can interrupt the customer if there are shortages in generation or transmission capacity. It rarely happens, so it becomes a good deal for some industries.
 
jghrist:
Yes, I am aware of that. Interruptible rates exist even where there is no demand management crisis. It just a economic business structure on the line of you get what you pay for. Interruptible rate does not mean, interrupting at will or on daily or even monthly basis. But just that the load is not given a top priority like say a hospital would be given or no special measures for a back up feeders or automatic transfers are built by the utility. In a true sense all utility services are interruptible, as there is never a guarantee of no loss of power. Routine peak demand management does not constitute an emergency.

Even those participating in demand response programs are given at least 30 minutes of advance notice with a "request" to take action. We, as a developed nation, are fully capable of meeting the demands of "normal" business and industries. It is not the intent or in the interest of a developed country not to build capacities to serve what is needed. Demand management is only intended to use maximum extent of the installed capacity, not to stifle growth or restrict daily lives.

The difference between engineers, businessmen, accountants and politicians is very evident in this thread. Engineers want to use everything they "can" make, while market and society only accepts or adopts what is needed or useful.
Many "capabilities" of smart meters, such as automatic sensing and turning off power, are not really required nor have been embraced by the market for exactly the same reason.


Rafiq Bulsara
 
ATT was/is a participant in the Demand Response loadshedding programs. In Sept. 1991 in NYC, they brought down their major NYC leased-line facility when they moved to generators, and had "rectifier" trips. [Everything runs on BIG -48V battery strings.] Not an issue except ALL the power guys were at training for the new alarm system..

I've always wondered re: resi HVAC loadshedding. I'd think it would be a far easier sell if it was not in hour plus chunks, but say 15 min/hour man for a given house.
 
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