enginesrus
Mechanical
I wonder what started this?
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Ship fire 4
- Thread starter enginesrus
- Start date
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I wonder what started this?
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
It's a combination containership and roll on/roll off (car carrier). Cars have a long history of catching fire on ships. The fire is in the car carrying portion of the ship, up high above the engine room.
Spontaneous fires in vehicles have increased a great deal. One of the biggest causes seems to be the increased use of multiple separate control modules distributed throughout the vehicle. If the battery is not disconnected, many of those modules still get power. If the electronics fail it can draw enough power to start a fire, even though it isn't drawing enough to blow the fuse, just like a toaster can.
For example: and and and
For example: and and and
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Cars are shipped as they would sit in a parking lot. The only rule is 1/4 tank of fuel max. Keys are left in the ignition during transit. I don't know that fires have gotten more frequent. The HMMWVs were notorious for starting fires in ships because the seat springs would sag or break and short the battery terminals.
I spent some time sailing on a ro/ro ship. We did have one fire while I was onboard but it was an autotransformer for our emergency fire pump. The fire was in a hold with the cars. I had heard about the reluctance to ship the HMMWVs.
I spent some time sailing on a ro/ro ship. We did have one fire while I was onboard but it was an autotransformer for our emergency fire pump. The fire was in a hold with the cars. I had heard about the reluctance to ship the HMMWVs.
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
And since these cars were being sent where they were, it's very possible that they're used cars, which would provide even more chances that there could be problems with the electrical/fuel systems.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Also keep in mind that these ships usually have fixed fire suppression systems installed in the holds with cars. However, the marine envirment is hard on the ventilation dampers that need to shut for the suppression systems to work. These dampers are usually poorly constructed and do not use corrosion resistant materials for pivot points or they use plastic bushings sized incorrectly to handle moisture absorption or get constricted by corrosion on the OD of the bushing.
To add insult to injury, the operators love to throw their favorite "red" grease or penetrating oil at the problem and exercise the units before every inspection so that they always appear to function correctly... for that day. The grease ends up hardening in short time and the oils dry out and the exercise doesn't remove the corrosion products that are causing it to stick.
To add insult to injury, the operators love to throw their favorite "red" grease or penetrating oil at the problem and exercise the units before every inspection so that they always appear to function correctly... for that day. The grease ends up hardening in short time and the oils dry out and the exercise doesn't remove the corrosion products that are causing it to stick.
Murph 9000
Computer
Sal Mercogliano, a maritime professor, former merchant mariner, and volunteer firefighter goes into some detail about the fire, possible causes, firefighting challenges, etc:
That's quite a video.
If the FD hasn't had the proper shipboard firefighting training, for whatever reason, it seems the FD should have refused to fight the fire. Then, once the fire burns out and the ship is on the bottom, the need for proper training can be discussed.
Two men would still be alive.
Alternately, the Port Authority could have their own fire department.
spsalso
If the FD hasn't had the proper shipboard firefighting training, for whatever reason, it seems the FD should have refused to fight the fire. Then, once the fire burns out and the ship is on the bottom, the need for proper training can be discussed.
Two men would still be alive.
Alternately, the Port Authority could have their own fire department.
spsalso
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Fighting shipboard fire is all about sealing the fire off and then boundary cooling to keep the fire from spreading. The spaces are too hazardous to enter and move around in when blacked out and full of smoke. Entering hot spaces carries a very high flashover risk even if the fire is extinguished. If the fire affects the hull from the main deck down there must also be structural cooling to prevent the ship from breaking.
Interesting comments in this article:
"The fire was contained in an area of the 11th and 12 floors of the vessel, which has a Halon fire suppression system, city officials said."
I believe the 12th "floor" is the top, open, deck.
"One of the issues encountered by the firefighters was that their two-and-a-half-inch fire hose lines weren't compatible with the boat's one-inch connections, a source close to the investigation told ABC News on Thursday. Instead, the firefighters were forced to use the fire hoses on the ship, which output less water and pressure than they were used to, the source said."
The second quote is very interesting, considering Sal Mercogliano's comments about using shipboard hoses compared to the FD's own. I also do wonder at any fire system that would use a 1" line. Apparently, the ship's designers and appropriate certifying agencies thought it adequate.
Also wonder why the ship didn't carry appropriate hose adapters for the ports they visit. And why the FD of Newark didn't have them, either.
Wonder where the ship's engineer was--seems like he should have been chock full of advice and useful information.
spsalso
"The fire was contained in an area of the 11th and 12 floors of the vessel, which has a Halon fire suppression system, city officials said."
I believe the 12th "floor" is the top, open, deck.
"One of the issues encountered by the firefighters was that their two-and-a-half-inch fire hose lines weren't compatible with the boat's one-inch connections, a source close to the investigation told ABC News on Thursday. Instead, the firefighters were forced to use the fire hoses on the ship, which output less water and pressure than they were used to, the source said."
The second quote is very interesting, considering Sal Mercogliano's comments about using shipboard hoses compared to the FD's own. I also do wonder at any fire system that would use a 1" line. Apparently, the ship's designers and appropriate certifying agencies thought it adequate.
Also wonder why the ship didn't carry appropriate hose adapters for the ports they visit. And why the FD of Newark didn't have them, either.
Wonder where the ship's engineer was--seems like he should have been chock full of advice and useful information.
spsalso
There is supposed to be an international junction for the hose, from what I have gleaned at gCaptain and that forum.
It's a surprise - it is registered in Italy.
Also from gCaptain - this was the worst condition. At sea they would slam the doors shut and dump the extinguishers.
I feel horrible for the firefighters who died in there. They were going into a cramped area with chains across every gap to tie the cars down (tripping hazard every 12-18 feet) and treating what is essentially a fuel farm fire as a structural fire.
That is 1200 rather delicate cans of fuel. One gCaptain comment was there is a 4 minute rule - after the first car starts there is 4 minutes before the neighboring cars start. 1 - 5 - 13 and there are holes in the elevator decks that let the fire escape the deck to, I presume, the decks below as the fuel tanks melt or explode dumping fuel.
So sad to find the interesting details of how they get the cars aboard among the tragedy of lost firefighters.
It's a surprise - it is registered in Italy.
Also from gCaptain - this was the worst condition. At sea they would slam the doors shut and dump the extinguishers.
I feel horrible for the firefighters who died in there. They were going into a cramped area with chains across every gap to tie the cars down (tripping hazard every 12-18 feet) and treating what is essentially a fuel farm fire as a structural fire.
That is 1200 rather delicate cans of fuel. One gCaptain comment was there is a 4 minute rule - after the first car starts there is 4 minutes before the neighboring cars start. 1 - 5 - 13 and there are holes in the elevator decks that let the fire escape the deck to, I presume, the decks below as the fuel tanks melt or explode dumping fuel.
So sad to find the interesting details of how they get the cars aboard among the tragedy of lost firefighters.
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
1-1/2 inch is the standard hydrant size but the thread forms can vary between NH and NPSM. I believe ship are all NH and most municipalities are as well but some older regions still use NPSM.
Otherwise, there is an international shore connection as well so outside sources can charge the ship's fire main. It's the equivalent of 3 inch.
Otherwise, there is an international shore connection as well so outside sources can charge the ship's fire main. It's the equivalent of 3 inch.
- Thread starter
- #14
enginesrus
Mechanical
Of course no chance an Li battery is involved some how. Either one that powers the car or a tool or flashlight, shaver, old phone, or any other such thing left in one of the cars.
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- #15
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
It's not a prerequisite. Car carriers have always been fire prone. The trouble with lithium batteries in cars is that they make the currently installed suppression systems even more inadequate.
It should be noted that when sailing, the cars sometimes break loose and start smashing about. That same ship I was on had a forklift get loose before my time. It punched many holes in the side of the ship before the weather calmed.
It should be noted that when sailing, the cars sometimes break loose and start smashing about. That same ship I was on had a forklift get loose before my time. It punched many holes in the side of the ship before the weather calmed.
- Thread starter
- #16
enginesrus
Mechanical
One thing for sure is the fire had to start because of some electrical problem. Or someone smoking. Oils and petro fuels just don't spontaneously burn.
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Actually, piles of oily rags can spontaneously combust.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
I've seen a crack in an uptake fill compartment with a foot of soot and sulfur. Not particularly dangerous on a steamer where stack temps are in the neighborhood of 300°F but it could certainly be an issue on a motor ship where stack temps can exceed 700°F. Wet stacking can lead to stack fires that can really cause havoc in adjacent spaces.
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