Remove scale? 6

[ctopher]

I have been looking into updating our drawing templates.
I was thinking about the Scale block, and scale listed under views.
What do you think about not using scale anymore?
There isn't really any use for it anymore. Drawings are never printed full size, and they are saved as PDF's.
Who cares what the scale is anymore? After printing, the drawings are not to scale.
Thoughts?

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion

 

[JNieman]

If you have views at different scales, it's rather important. It's sometimes not obvious that a section or detail is blown up 2x, 4x, etc. At the least, a relationship of 'child views' to the base view is necessary, imo. It's not so much about "one inch on paper equals 12 inches of part" but more about relation at the bare minimum.

I don't know that there is an unambiguous, clear, and logical method to convey relation between views without declaring the first view to be at a certain physical scale. Otherwise what units is the scale in? "This view is 4x size of the base view" is a lot more words than "4x" and if your "4x" isn't indicative of the 'mutually understood' full-scale (1 paper [unit] = 1 part [unit]) (or whatever unit that's declared) then you have to explain it, and that is not something that should have to be explained.

Sure it's not going to be used to actually scale from practically speaking, but it gives context from which all subsequent labels are understood.

_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5

 

[ewh]

I strongly agree, but the logistics of denoting the subsequent view scale(s) when there are no standards whatsoever as to what scales are allowed for the main views makes for a difficult battle.

"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV

 

[KENAT]

While scaling from drawings should never be done, I occasionally am forced to do it.

So having a scale stated, and then being able to scale off given dimensions is occasionally handy. Our old template in the UK actually had a graticle on it which allowed you scale if ever required.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[drawoh]

ctopher,

Our inspectors have requested scale drawings from us. A plate with a lot of holes in it can be inspected very quickly for gross errors by sitting it on a scale drawing.

A lot of that "DO NOT SCALE DRAWINGS" stuff comes from the old drafting board days when we did not always have time to redraw things to reflect dimension changes. 3D[ ]CAD makes it easier (and necessary) to model and draw to scale.

--
JHG

 

[ewh]

As long as I have a drawn distance and an associative dimension related to it on paper, a measuring scale and dividers, other dimensions can be easily determined. Accuracy is another matter. ;-)

"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV

 

[CheckerHater]

It's interesting that ISO 7200, the standard on title-blocks, doesn't mention "scale" field. Not even as "optional".

I guess it all winds down to deliverables: if your customer wants to see scale and/or print your dwgs to certain paper sizes, what choices do you have?



"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[ctopher]

The old days we scaled hand drawings and the checker measured them to check scale.
These days, who does that? Sure, there are a few companies that plot full size and use them as a template, but that is the minority.
Scaling is a "left-over" from old school.
If you scale up a detail from another view, it's obvious that it is scaled. Do we really care that a view is 2/1 and the derived detail is 20/1?
If there are dimension involved, we can see by the dimensions the size of the part.
I also have not seen a standard that mentions that the scale is needed or optional.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion

 

[CheckerHater]

There should be Title block requirements (what is optional and what's mandatory) in ASME Y14.1 Inch Drawing Sheet Size and Format, but I don't have a copy.


"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[drawoh]

ctopher,

I try very hard to make all my fabrication drawings 1:1. I can do this because the stuff I design is of an appropriate size. I have my old drafting scales here, so even if the prints are not 1:1, I can scale off them.

You can still buy those metric drafting scale that go 1:1, 1:2, 1:5, 1:10, 1:20, and 1:50. This is the ideal gift for all those engineers who cannot multiply or divide by ten.

--
JHG

 

[cowski]

I nominate "graticule" as the word of the day...

 

[ctopher]

I found the spec:
ASME Y14.100-2004

"4.23 Scale
Scale expresses the ratio of the object size as drawn
to its full size. Drawings shall be drawn to a scale that
depicts all details of the item clearly and accurately,
except as noted in para. 4.23.3.
4.23.1 Selection of Scale. Drawings should show an
object or assembly to full scale. When full scale is not
practicable, drawings may be prepared to reduced or
enlarged scale. It is desirable, whenever practicable, that
detail drawings be prepared to the same scale as pertinent
assembly drawings.
4.23.2 Indication of Scale. The scale, or scales, to
which drawings are prepared shall be indicated on the
drawing. The scale to which the majority of views and
sections are drawn shall be entered after “SCALE” in
the space provided on the drawing. For multisheet
drawings, the predominant scale used for each sheet
shall be entered after “SCALE” in the space provided
on that sheet. The options for depicting scale, fraction,
ratio, or decimal are indicated as examples below. The
scale of each view or section drawn to other than the
predominate scale shall be entered directly below the
title of the view or section. For example:
SECTION A-A
SCALE 1/2
SECTION A-A
SCALE 1:2
SECTION A-A
SCALE .5

4.23.3 Drawings Not to Scale. In the case of diagrams,
pictorials, cable assemblies, and tabulated and other
drawings not prepared to any scale, the word “NONE”
shall be entered after “SCALE” in the space provided
on the drawing format. Drawings consisting predominantly
of textual content need not have an entry in the
scale block."

I feel with digital data that this may be eventually revised.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion

 

[MikeHalloran]

It's usually, but not always, obvious when an auxiliary view is at a different scale from the main drawing. I'd rather err on the side of caution and make the difference explicit somehow.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[ctopher]

I know what you are saying Mike.
But, my argument is do we really care?
I have done CNC machining, inspection, etc. Scale of details and views are not looked at and nobody seems to really care.
It's more of a visual clue for the reader to know how big a detail is to another view. So, why do we care? It's obvious there is a difference.

I'm not saying it's wrong showing a scale, I'm only saying with digital media these days the scale isn't relevant anymore.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion

 

[ewh]

As JNieman put it so well... "It's not so much about "one inch on paper equals 12 inches of part" but more about relation at the bare minimum."
The actual scale is no longer as important as it was in the past, but the knowledge of the size relationship between views does aid in easier drawing interpretation.

"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV

 

[ctopher]

I agree that it has been easier drawing interpretation. But, if I made the scale "NONE", I believe most would know there is a scale difference and not question it.
Since the spec indicates there should be a scale on the views, it allows NONE for the sheet.
I'm going to change the template to show "NONE" as the default and go from there.
I have asked a couple vendors, customers, and machinists' about this, they don't seem to care either way. Scale is not important to them.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion

 

[ewh]

Most would know that there is a scale difference, but they wouldn't know what that difference was other than larger or smaller, and some may not even realize that.

"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV

 

[weavedreamer]

While scaling from drawings should never be done, I occasionally am forced to do it.

So having a scale stated, and then being able to scale off given dimensions is occasionally handy. Our old template in the UK actually had a graticle on it which allowed you scale if ever required.

You did mean graticule, yes? Learned a new word today. Thanks.

 

[ctopher]

drawoh,
I still have all of my scales too.

KENAT,
Also a new word for me.

ewh,
Having the scale smaller or larger doesn't really mean anything to many, as long as the detail makes sense.

It would be interesting to have a poll/test to see who notices scale throughout a drawing. They would notice that there is something different, but not exactly what the scale is, nor would they care.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion

 

[SDETERS]

Ctopher you mentioned something about printing out PDF's. Are you printing your PDF's to the same paper size that your drawing is? Is printing to a PDF any different than printing the file to a plotter?