Remote Control 3-way switch

[drewtheengineer]

Anyone know if a remote control 3-way light switch exists? I want to put a remote control switch on a brick wall and I don't want to screw around with running wire to it. I've seen a two-way remote control switch that runs on AAA batteries. Maybe if there is no 3-way remote control switch, is there a way to rig the 2-way to perform the same way?

 

[busbar]

It is possible that Lutron may have something... appropriately overpriced, of course.

http://www.lutron.com/spacer/single...&abbrev_id=&pf_id=&rt=overview.asp&device_id=

 

[skiier]

You could use 2 remote control motion sensors that come with some new outdoor lighting fixtures. Any good hardware store stocks these items now. They have an adjustable motion detector transmitter and a receiver at the light fixture. If the lighting system you have uses a standard 120V lamp then buy 2x120V control relays. Wire the relays into the lamp cct of each receiver. Then parallel 2xN.O. contacts off each relay and use these to drive your load - say turn on a lite.
You might just get lucky and find that each transmitter may operate both receivers. In which case you won't require any relays if the load you want to drive is within the range of the receiver unit.
There is a catch with 90% these devices however. They are electronic and in order to operate they must see a fixed load range. That load is normally a power consuming 50 to 150W resistive lite bulb. Connecting a higher impedance relay to the receiver almost always will ensure that the relay is always on or off. Your guess as to which state it takes on. You have to ask for motion sensors with relay outputs. A dry contact on the output takes away the guess work. Most manufacturer's don't make as many of these units so they are going to be more expensive than a receiever that drives a fixed load of 50 to 150W.
This is a not a typical 3WAY switch application but if set up right this arrangement will work exactly the same. What I mean is you set the on/off delay and sensitivty of each receiver so that it turns on your light whenever you enter the area you want to illuminate.
You locate the sensors so that they will detect movement when you enter or leave the area and hopefully you can also detect any motion in the area u want lit as long as you are in that area. The receivers have an off delay that can be set very low so that the lites turn off a few seconds after you exit the area. So in a sense u r only turning on the system and the system turns itself off. And it appears to act as a 3WAY switch without touching a button.

I have a customer who was getting tired of turning out the lites in his garage after his kids had been in there. I installed 2 motion detectors in his garage to detect motion at the 2 doors into his garage - one door to the house and the other door to his yard. Luckily with this arrangement I can detact any motion in the garage. The customer tells me he hasn't flipped a switch in the garage for months. He also has the added bonus of the lites turning on whenever one of his 3 overhead garage doors open. Also, as long as you are in the garage the lites stay on because they are constantly detecting your motion as long as you are in the garage.
I suppose you could set up a true 3WAY motion detector system but I think you would require some "latching circuitry" or memory of some type. A true mechanical latching relay would be the simplest solution but it seems that everyone wants to do everything electronically so few manufacturer's are making these anymore.
You could set the sensitivity of each motion detector so that you almost have to "touch it" to turn them on. Locate the switches just as you would any other switch. Each time you wave your hand in front of the motion detector you pulse the latching relay and change it's state. This works at each detector location and can work simultaneously- which can lead to other problems. This system has many control problems, as you can imagine, and is expensive to make. The trouble is no one at "Home Depot" is asking for this item so no one is making it.
Whatever you can dream up you can probably do now a days.
Have fun. Hope I helped.

 

[OperaHouse]

Just drive another external 120V AC relay with the remote. The 3 way switch is the same as a relay with both normally open and normally closed contacts. Just use a relay with appropriately rated contacts

 

[skiier]

Hey Opera house. Just how do you produce a memory or a set/reset operation with a single relay for a true 3 way application? The problem is not as simple as it first appears. Give it a try. I'll bet you find that it flat out won't work ( caused by improper impedance matching ) or your system design doesn't work the way you want it to. I mean the lites don't go on and off as u want them too.Hehehehe. Trust me, I've been down this road.
The control has to "remember" the last state requested unotherwise it won't work properly.
As for an off the shelf motion detector just how do you wire a 120V relay into the "remote" without running wires? He doesn't want to run wires. He doesn't want to run wires. He doesn't want to run wires. And when was the last time you wired a relay to a transmitter? A little more thought and regards to what the person is asking might be more helpful in future.

 

[drewtheengineer]

OK, so here is what I'm thinking (keep in mind I'm a structural engineer and know just enough about electrical to be dangerous).

I went and purchased the two-way switch with receiver. I was hoping that the reciever would be a simple switch device that I could modify so when the switch went to "off", I could just hook up the other jumper wire. No good on that. Just a circuit board with all kinds of resisters and capacitors and junk (way beyond my comprehension).

So I then took apart the wall switch. Here's what I'm thinking. I purchase a second two-way switch with reciever. Currently, if you push the top part of the switch it pushes a button on the circuit board to turn the reciever "on", if you push the bottom, another button turns it "off". So I set the first switch and receiver to signal "A" (they can be set to "A" or "B&quot. I set the second switch and reciever to "B". I install the second switch circuit board in the same switch box with the first (this will get creative). I will connect the "on" switch of board 2 to the "off" switch of board 1 and vice versa.

Here is what I think the result will be. When I press "on", reciever 1 will turn "on" (black wire), reciever 2 will turn "off" (red wire). When I turn "off", reciever 1 will turn "off" (black wire), reciever 2 will turn "on" (red wire). There's my three way switch?

 

[Madcow]

Try these links

http://www.smarthomepro.com/2531.html

http://www.act-solutions.com/pdfs/PCCSpecs/rs101as001_3way_spec.pdf

http://www.securityworld.com/homeapt/remoteappliance3.html

http://www1.shopping.com/xKW-remote_light_switch/NS-1/linkin_id-3040480/GS.html

 

[skiier]

Hey Drew. Give it a try. It might just work. Although I tend to think it won't work as you want. Experience has taught me that electronic devices can't just be jumpered.
Can you pls clarify a few things.
1/ Define this 2 way switch. Do you mean that the switch is a combination transmitter/motion sensor which is remote to the receiver? Or does this 2 way switch simply "turn on" a combination motion sensor/receiver which is remote to the switch?. Does this 2 way switch have settings to turn the "receiver" on and off at the switch remote from the receiver? A little clarity would help.
2/ What is the rated output ( in Watts) and volts of the receiver unit. Can you tell me if the receiever output is relay contact or electronic. The packaging might tell you. If you look at the load wires of the receiver unit you can follow these to the cct board. If the lead wires run to anything that resembles a cube shape, say 1/2"x1/2"x3/4" for example, this could be a relay. Examine the cube , a relay will generally have some type schematic ( even a tiny one). If all you see on the board is chips and transistors and amps and such then you probably have an electronically driven output. In which case the load on the receiver, in order for it to work properly, will have to be the rated load as given with the packaging or on the nameplate.

 

[skiier]

Thanks Madcow. all that writing just blown away by 4 links! Hehheehe. Thanks again

 

[OperaHouse]

Improper impedance matching. And they say engineers aren't funny. Where I live A 3-way and a 4-way are how you order your chili. Never thought 3-way was a good name for a single pole double throw switch. How they got 4-way is even harder to comprehend. The remote on off controllers (other than the older add on remotes for garage doors which are pulse) have the latch built in. So powering an external relay will serve to replace it. Only problems are the extra current wasted to operate the relay and the occasional power glitch that may reset it and turn on the lights. Personally things wasting power keep me up at night.

The real problem here is he wants something to plop in the existing wall box. Another possibility is splicing into the wires between the two switches. There you use a DPDT relay instead. The NC of one pole is tied to NO of the other for both sides. Like a motot reversing switch. This can be placed out of the way and kep the visuals neat. The relay switches the red and black wires. This allows you to still have the the two manual switches. Low tech that a neophite can figure out. I'd do it with an 8 pin microchip but you cant explain that or a bunch of relays on a board.

 

[skiier]

The trades have a way of naming things over time.

A "3way" refers to the fact that you need 3 wires to operate the system.
A 4way comes from opening the 2 "travellers" between the 2 switches in a 3 way cct. 4 wires are needed and this not a simple NO or NC contact arrangement. The 4 way has 4 terminals - 2 on each side of the switch. The line is into one side and the load is out the other side. In one postion the left terminals are shorted "straight" thru to the terminals on the other side. In the next position the left terminals are shorted "crossways" thru to the terminals on the other side.Try to duplicate this switching arrangement with a single relay. It can't be done.

 

[skiier]

I must qualify the previous statement. What I meant to say was a "latching" arrangement is not available with a normal off the shelf relay. It is easy to switch the contacts of a single relay containing 4 poles to make a "4 way" switch but you do not have the "memory" of what state was requested with a normal single relay. U need additional relays to create logical memory or you need a special mechanical latching relay. So when I wrote "try to duplicate this switching arrangement with a single relay. It can't be done" I meant to say that the logic required could not be performed with a single relay.

 

[nbucska]

Drew:
Do you want one or a lot ?

<nbucska@pcperipherals.com>

 

[drewtheengineer]

Just one

 

[nbucska]

You can assign three states to the three switch positions
-- one of them off --and step one on one pulse. It means
you may have to push the button twice.

Radio Shack had a 40Khz infrared receiver -- you can combine it with solid state switches.




<nbucska@pcperipherals.com>

 

[killabyte]

theres a lot of electronic solutions companies, just contact them, im sure theyll get a cheap solution for you.

regards

killa