Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

[connectegr]

Let be start by stating that my question is not racial or culturally biased in any way.

Simply stated, is it professionally ethical to purchase design calculations and analysis at grossly discounted rates from overseas (or anywhere), and apply your professional seal with no direct supervision of the design personnel?

This morning I received the 4th email this month offering such services. I am aware that many of these engineers are educated in the US and often have post graduate degrees. I have worked with large design firms that literally work around the clock via a network of worldwide offices and staff. But, their professional network provides licensed professional engineers providing on site supervision and guidance. I have attended seminars on the growing trend, outlining the benefits and obstacles. But, this is not the model that concerns me. I am concerned with companies providing the design calculations, but without the ability to seal their own product.

I know that some state license boards specifically prohibit the sealing of designs not provided under direct supervision. Our professional liability insurance would be unaffordable. I also cannot imagine sitting in a witness seat and explaining that we sealed a critical portion of a structure that was designed without direct supervision or even direct communication. All in the interest of discounted prices and accelerated schedules.

I know this forum represents the finest in our industries world-wide. Is this a trend that I should look at with a more open mind?

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[ash060]

My response to that is "Caveat Emptor".

You are not looking at it and have no idea who is really looking at it during design.

It could be a PhD or some computer operator who knows nothing more than running a program.

 

[connectegr]

I apologize that this is not a technical question, in a technical forum. But, I most appreciate the input of "real" engineers with proficiency in their field.

I am seeing this service used more often in the current economy. And it is surprisingly easy to find an engineer willing to sell their seal.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[Ron]

Not only is that practice unethical, it is illegal in the US. This does not meet the test for "responsible charge".

 

[ash060]

If it is illegal in the US, why do so many companies use it and why is it so openly discussed?

I have seen trade magazines that list the merits in out-sourcing.

 

[ToadJones]

Let me get this straight, you, as a PE, can purchase a design from over seas and then seal it as your own?

 

[DRWeig]

Absolutely, Ron hit the nail on the head.

Unethical, illegal, just say no.

Oh, and if you know of someone who didn't say no, you're also obligated to turn them in to the state licensing board in most cases.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

 

[connectegr]

ToadJones
For us, an engineering firm, your description would be the case.

But, I am also seeing contractors, fabricators, and detailers using these overseas companies directly. Then paying an engineer to "review" and seal the calculations.

DRWeig
I have never reported anyone to a state board. But, I do find this trend to be dangerously beyond the ethical line.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[DRWeig]

Connectegr,

I've never personally reported anyone either, but that's only because somebody beat me to it (twice in my career).

Plan-stampers somehow manage to goof up and get caught pretty darned often. It's amazing to me...

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

 

[ToadJones]

Let's be serious here...
This goes beyond an ethical line and hits us directly in the wallet.
Its no different than any other kind of outsourcing.

The part that has always irritated me about this type of stuff going on in engineering is the fact that engineers seem to hold themselves above other professions in terms of any kind of union or rights to work.
It is the only "profession" that can be practiced without licensure or certification...simply rendering not a "profession".
You can't even teach high school students without being certified.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

My simple answer - "NO" it is not ethical

 

[MiketheEngineer]

PS - You might want to post this in the "Professional Ethics in Engineering" forum.

 

[JedClampett]

First let me say that I agree that this is unethical behavior. I hope we never have to resort to this kind of practice.
But let's say you work for a large company with offices in multiple locations. To even out workload or whatever reason, you ask for assistance from another office. "Please design a 30'-0" long beam with a 4 kip/ft load on it for me." He/she does the calculation and you include it in the design notes. Is that really different from the examples above? What does responsible charge mean?
If you outsource calculations, you better dog gone be sure they're right. The results need to pass your "Spidey Sense." But that's the same whether they're done overseas or at the desk next to you.

 

[ron9876]

There are substantial companies whose business plan is to bag and ship. I doubt that any of them actually review the work. The state boards know it is going on and don't say anything. I don't think this is responsible charge but it is openly discussed.

 

[msquared48]

I have been complaining about this outrsourcing scenario for years to no avail. It is so prevalent, companies do it to remain competitive. Brings back memories of labor before unions in this country if you asked me.

The solution here is self-policing and permanently removing the offenders.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[woodman88]

If you are looking for someone to design for you I would say no. But if you are looking for someone to size for you?
The wood truss industry is a prime example of having someone size for you. The manufacturer inputs the loading conditions and available member sizes in a program to check if it meets the engineer requirements. Then they send it to the engineer to be designed based on these loading conditions and sizes. Now in this case it is the engineer's customer (who is not licensed) that is doing the grunt work of picking the structural member sizes to be designed by the engineer.
So should an engineer send a job overseas to get the grunt work determination of an acceptable design, structural members, connections, sizes, etc. so that they would only need to calculate/design once? I would say that this may be acceptable (you would need to check with the project's state engineering board).

Garth Dreger PE
AZ Phoenix area

 

[graybeach]

I have the same questions as JedClampett having worked at large company that spread work around the various offices. To me "Responsible Charge" might well mean someone doing calculations at a remote location, and a PE checking them thoroughly and possibly going back and forth a bit with the remote office before sealing them. I don't see what is wrong with this in theory - as long as the PE is totally confident about what he or she sealed.

 

[connectegr]

As I said, I have no problem with a design team working in multiple office. But, this is still under the supervision of the licensed engineer and the satellite offices probably have engineering management for supervision, with share company guidelines.

I have seen large industrial projects, that were literally worked on 24 hours a day. The model was stored on a server and pickup by different offices to continue analysis. But, still under the supervision of a licensed engineer for the project. And a significant coordination system is in place.

My concern is this "blind" out-sourcing to the lowest bidder. And companies that actually market this service to engineering firms, contractors, etc.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[bridgebuster]

"If it is illegal in the US, why do so many companies use it and why is it so openly discussed?"


A lot of things are illegal but the law hasn't put criminals out of business.

 

[connectegr]

It is all about the money. Somewhere being the most qualified was over powered by being cheapest.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com