Professional Ethics? Sealing Engineering Design

[connectegr]

Let be start by stating that my question is not racial or culturally biased in any way.

Simply stated, is it professionally ethical to purchase design calculations and analysis at grossly discounted rates from overseas (or anywhere), and apply your professional seal with no direct supervision of the design personnel?

This morning I received the 4th email this month offering such services. I am aware that many of these engineers are educated in the US and often have post graduate degrees. I have worked with large design firms that literally work around the clock via a network of worldwide offices and staff. But, their professional network provides licensed professional engineers providing on site supervision and guidance. I have attended seminars on the growing trend, outlining the benefits and obstacles. But, this is not the model that concerns me. I am concerned with companies providing the design calculations, but without the ability to seal their own product.

I know that some state license boards specifically prohibit the sealing of designs not provided under direct supervision. Our professional liability insurance would be unaffordable. I also cannot imagine sitting in a witness seat and explaining that we sealed a critical portion of a structure that was designed without direct supervision or even direct communication. All in the interest of discounted prices and accelerated schedules.

I know this forum represents the finest in our industries world-wide. Is this a trend that I should look at with a more open mind?

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[BAretired]

Simply stated, is it professionally ethical to purchase design calculations and analysis at grossly discounted rates from overseas (or anywhere), and apply your professional seal with no direct supervision of the design personnel?

According to my association (APEGGA) guidelines under the Code of Ethics:

A professional stamp or seal affixed to a document is intended to indicate that the document has been produced under the supervision and control of a fully qualified member of APEGGA, or that it has been thoroughly reviewed by a professional member of APEGGA who accepts responsibility for it. Professional stamps and seals shall be affixed, signed and dated only after the responsible member is satisfied that the document or component for which he or she is professionally responsible is complete and correct.

My interpretation of the above is that the professional may seal a document either by (a) having had control of production of the document or (b) having reviewed and accepted full responsibility for the document.

The purchase price for such work, in my opinion, has no bearing on professional ethics.


BA

 

[connectegr]

BA
Would you accept full reponsibility for calculations where were not prepared under your supervision or thoroughly reviewed by yourself. I expect not. But, this is what I see happening.

Actually I see this issue less in our Canadian work. Engineers, fabricators, and contractors request our qualifications before awarding the project. Maybe the US should require the APEGGA ethics test for a PE.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[BAretired]

connectegr,

I would not accept responsibility for work which I had neither supervised nor reviewed.

I am aware that it is happening, primarily in some of the larger firms. An engineer who is asked to seal drawings prepared offshore may be afraid of losing his job if he refuses, especially in a tight economy such as we have seen in recent years.

An engineer who has opted to take that risk can very easily lose his right to practice the profession if somebody takes the trouble to lodge a complaint with APEGGA.

The practice is clearly unethical.

BA

 

[mikesg]

And yet where is the difference between an office using labour abroad and an office having several "technicians"? Or you don't do that in the US? A recently graduated "engineer" does the real work, you as a PE review and stamp it. Does it really matter that it was done locally or abroad when anyway you were attending a meeting or doing some other work while it was done?

I believe it happens, and even though I live in a country where prices are far lower than in US, we still have companies offering even lower than the "normal" here.

But quality and professionalism find their way through at the end. Be professional, be a top performer and people (and money, and fame) will come to you.

No offence intended, but it is the same as having an original German (or US) machine and say a "Chinese" one. You choose and take the consequences.

Mike

 

[BAretired]

There is a difference. Supervision and control by a qualified engineer means reviewing the design and preparation of drawings and specifications on a regular basis. It may entail a daily or weekly meeting in which problems are discussed amongst the group responsible for the work. Discussion among team members must be encouraged in order for the team to be pulling in the same direction.

Teamwork is very important. No team member should be assigned a job which is beyond his capabilities. One or more members may be asked to oversee the work of junior members. The team leader will require a design review from time to time to ensure that the work is up to par and is on target for completion.

The team leader can be absent from the design office without affecting the quality of the work if the team has been created properly.

This atmosphere is usually lacking when an offshore group is responsible for the design and/or preparation of documents. The responsible engineer, i.e. the engineer who will ultimately place his seal and signature on the documents does not know anyone on the design team. The only discussion will be by email or phone and often there is a language barrier making that type of contact difficult and cumbersome.

I do not suggest that it is impossible to create an acceptable atmosphere with an offshore group, but to do it, the responsible engineer must have effective "supervision and control" even if it is at a distance. From what I have read on this thread, that is not generally being done.

BA

 

[connectegr]

Thanks for all the feedback.

I think BA summarized my understanding of professional supervision. Hopefully a disaster is not required to draw serious attention to this trend. I will certainly not provide any support to these companies. I believe that we should be held to the highest standard of professional responsibility.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com