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Pilots Forgetting How to Fly 1

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ESPcomposites

Aerospace
Jul 27, 2010
692
Automation in the Air Dulls Pilot Skill:


The parallel is that engineers are also becoming overly reliant on computers and forget (or never learn) how to be engineers. Some of the younger generation do not see a need for "old school" classical methods. They want to use high tech software or FEM everything.


Brian
 
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There are some planes which don't even have pilots.

Just saying!

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I don't see how military or UAV are relevant. Those aircraft have very different objectives/inherent risk than a commercial aircraft.

Computers can be used to improve technology. That much is obvious. They can also be a detriment if they are abused or overly relied upon. That part is less obvious and also the point.

Brian
 
Commercial airliners are almost all FBW, and as such, the computer is flying the plane. Plane design decisions are based on "fighting the last war" so almost all the things that the article gripes about are related to previous pilot failures.

And again, my point is that there is no comparison; if a pilot wants to fly a commercial jet, it's computerized FBW and he has no choice. Engineers are freer to choose their poisons.

What makes the current crop of pilots weak is the limited amount of training, since training doesn't generate revenue, not to mention that previous generations of pilots flew in less reliable planes and were more likely to have had to deal with actual emergencies, unlike many of today's pilots who have never experienced any sort of major crisis in flight.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
 
I made my living for 20 years from pilots who forgot how to fly ( even for a couple of seconds) by picking up the pieces and patching them together, and ninety percent of them did not have a computer to help them.
With the degree of automation coming now, the odd landing incident will become a thing of the past, unless it is a minor hardware failure. A catastrophic accident with nothing to salvage is going to be the more likely scenario.
B.E.


The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
 
Here's an example of unintended consequences.

The "electronic" clearing of checks has just about killed the "time building" job of flying physical bank checks around the country for clearing.

Many thousands of pilots have honed their skills doing this grueling job. All kinds of bad weather, mechanical difficulty, crappy equipment, low pay, et al.

This experience pool has dried up.

I would hate to think I had to fly a vor these days.

God created the Garmin 530, and that changed everything!

 
Perhaps my wording could have been better. Nonetheless, is boils down to this:

- "The airline industry is suffering from "automation addiction," Kay said."

- The same might be said about trends in engineering.

Brian
 
"The airline industry is suffering from "automation addiction," Kay said."

- The same might be said about trends in engineering.

You have made a parallel based on personal experience and general consensus. I will have to agree with you for the most part. However, if you look more deeply into it we may find that these "new grads" that display the FEM addiction may be in fact the same fellows that never wanted to be an engineer or the so called "lower caliber stock".
At least I hope so [smile]

btw, FEM is a great tool. But it should be utilized with analytic methods which can decrease error potential and allow for some "feel".

[peace]
Fe
 
it happening Everywhere (i think you need to live in Toronto to understand that emphasis). anyways, most of us don't learn latin any more (or greek, or much of the "classics").

so too in our business ... people ar being taught to run FEA without getting a grounding in the basics. often, with experience, you can look at one of the pretty pictures (that tries so hard to impress) and say "well that can't be right" or at least "that doesn't look right".

and just as i think that anyone doing stress should be able to solve a SS beam using no more than a pencil and paper (and a small part of their brain), so too "older" pilots lament the loss of basic piloting skills.

and maybe hockey players too experience a similar thing ... too few skilled players chasing too many jobs paying too much money, which opens the gate to lesser skilled players ...
 
rb1957,

Ah, the good ol' days of the six team NHL. Now many people on this site have the vaguest clue of what I am talking about?

Automated cockpits and remotely piloted jet liners are a big issue with Patrick Smith at Salon.com.

Critter.gif
JHG
 
and the leafs won ... occassionally ... ahh, the good ol' days.

as for automatically polited people carriers, i'm not so sure. whilst i accept that they cause/aggravate many situations that produce "-ve outcomes", i like the idea that the guys up-front are really invested in not having that outcome. a remotely polited plane wouldn't have the same "comfort" ... consider the last 'com from the flight deck "... oops ... sorry, suckers"
 
I am in TO as well. haha. Damn those leafs :p. I now cheer for the Canadiens.

[peace]
Fe
 
rb1957,

I just re-read Deep Water recently. The book has very little to do with engineering, but I was thinking of Eng-Tips when I read it.

Basically, in june 1978, a tough-love school for boys ran a canoe trip up lake Timiskaming, and capsised all their canoes. Twelve boys and an adult leader died of hypothermia. Lakes in northern Ontario are very old in the spring. The trip leaders were found to be incompetent.

One of the adult leaders, fresh over from England, pointed out that he had not ever been in a canoe, and that therefore, he was not qualifed to take charge of one. He was told not to worry, he would pick it all up on the trip. He survived, but all seven of his boys died.

This was a Christian group, so the parents forgave him and the rest of the group. No one got sued.

Imagine carrying that one with you for the rest of your life.

In a lot of airplane crashes, something goes wrong. Indicators flash and alarms sound, but the pilots cannot figure it out. I am surprised that airliners do not have cameras aimed at the engines, or rear view bubbles in the cockpit. Imagine trying to debug a non-functioning aircraft by remote control.

Critter.gif
JHG
 
they (the lakes in NorOnt) can be dam'd cold in summer too ...

i agree, many accident reports imply that the pilots are overwelmed by the multitude of alarms they get in a crisis, so it's hard to decide which ones are priority.

when the QANTAS A380 had their engine explode on them, it took them hours to figure it all out.
 
"Indicators flash and alarms sound, but the pilots cannot figure it out. "

That sounds like a basic lack of training, which we know is the case. It used to be that all pilots had a certain number of hours on the simulator, specifically to get trained on things like that.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
 
One might also argue that up until 15 years ago or so you had a dedicated member of the crew that was worrying about the state of many essential systems. Automation did away with that guy, however maybe the level of automation isn't high enough/correct..., or the remaining crew need extra/different/better training or maybe really and truly, when all hell breaks lose that extra set of eyes, ears, hands.... really helped?

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IRstuff,

Think about that 747 crash in Japan quite a few years ago when the aircraft flew around for 20minutes to half an hour with the vertical stabilizer off. Over 500 people died.

All the crew knew is that their controls were not working. We have had a number of incidents where the crew flew around trying to figure out what control actions worked and didn't work. A bubble window or a video camera would have shown them what part of the aircraft had come off. Now you have a better change of solving the problem.

What sort of feeback would a remote control system provide to the pilot, especially after most of the instruments, possibly including the remote control, fail?

Critter.gif
JHG
 
I know use of aircraft surveillance systems by hijackers has been raised as a concern before - that they may see rescue attempts etc.

Overall hasn't flight safety improved with increased automation/technology, if so then arguably the trade of has been worth while.

However, I suppose the point is maybe the trade off didn't need to be made. Perhaps by requiring pilots to spend X hours running simulated emergencies on simulators per Y flying hours or similar, this effect could have been minimized.



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