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PD coupling caps applied in same term box as Surge caps 1

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electricpete

Electrical
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On page 17 it states:
Retrofitting or installation of surge capacitors with high frequency current transformers is the solution for sensitive pd measurements on generators and motors. Furthermore, if surge capacitors are already fitted it is useless to fit additional coupling capacitors as the surge capacitors drain their signal energy.
We have this exact configuraiton: 80 pF pd coupling (sensing) capacitors applied in the same term box as 0.25 uF surge caps, although the pd coupling caps tap in closer to the motor.

Question 1 - Does anyone have any opinions on this configuration or the quote above?
Question 2 - Do you know of guidelines for installation of coupling caps together with surge caps to ensure the surge cap does not interfere with the coupling cap function?

Just thinking through this. If the taps were separated by 0.5 meter... round trip distance is 1 meter.... at 3E8 m/sec the round trip takes 3 nanoseconds. Probably the rise times of interest are considerably longer than 3 nanosecond which suggests there would be interference in sensing of pulses from the motor at the coupling cap if spacing is 0.5 meter.

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It's entirely possible that the surge capacitors will affect the signal you get at the coupling capacitors and measuring device like the quote suggests. I doubt it, but you won't really know until you try to calibrate the PD test circuit.

However a distinct problem with the surge capacitors is that they could be causing partial discharges themselves and it may be hard to differentiate if the discharges come from the test object or the surge capacitors.

IEC 60270 suggests using a balanced circuit arrangement, which can often "enable the observer to distinguish discharges in the test object despite discharges in other parts of the circuit".
 
I haven’t heard of pd from a coupling cap, but if it did occur, it wouldn’t be a bad thing to get some warning from your pd monitoring even if it initially steers you toward the motor.

What kind of calibration do you refer to?


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Corrections/clarifications in bold:
I haven’t heard of pd from a surge cap, but if it did occur, it wouldn’t be a bad thing to get some warning from your pd monitoring even if it initially steers you toward the motor.

What kind of calibration do you refer to? ... Inject pulses at the location of the motor leads?


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Yes, you need to calibrate the test circuit by injecting current pulses of known charge magnitude and seeing what you get at the measuring device. You basically want to verify that PDs in the range of magnitudes that you're looking for are accurately captured by the measuring device.

Well theoretically, any insulated item subject to stressful voltages can have PD, but to be fair, I've never seen or heard of PD on surge capacitors either. It was just something that came into my head as a potential issue (but probably isn't!!).

Anyway have a look at IEC 60270, which is pretty good (as far as IEC standards go) at describing PD testing. Also, this is a good discussion on partial discharge testing for motors:
 
Attached is a photo of what seems to be our worst configuration (8000hp vertical 13.2kv motor). Hard bus connects motor leads up top to 3 items below:
1 - coupling cap leads
2 - surge cap leads
3 - power cables (2 parallel)
Those three items are all connected together within a few inches. Coupling cap leads and surge cap leads are both around 1.5 to 2' long.

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 http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=b09ba1ae-118b-48c0-b909-16e75d7b0fb8&file=DSCF0006.JPG
Well here's why I don't think the surge caps will be too much of a problem. I've drawn up a simplified equivalent circuit combined with a typical test circuit (see attached).

Vn is the voltage source
Ci is the capacitance of an insulation system in the motor (say the winding insulation)
Cp is the capacitance of an air cavity in the insulation due to degradation
Ci' is the capacitance of the rest of the insulation around the air cavity
Cs is the capacitance of the surge capacitors
Ck is the capacitance of the coupling capacitors
M is the measuring system hooked up in series

At some inception volage, the electromagnetic field is strong enough to bridge the air cavity in the insulation and a partial discharge occurs. After the breakdown of the air gap, the rest of the insulation around the cavity (Ci) now sees the full voltage Vn and therefore the charge across Ci' increases.

This extra charge is provided by all of the parallel capacitances around it, e.g. in this model Ci, Cs or Ck, or the voltage source (but usually it's too slow to react). So the capacitances discharge a short pulse into Ci' to provide the extra charge. However doing so reduces the voltage across all the capacitances and the power source reacts by charging all the capacitances again (including the air cavity) to the normal voltage Vn.

When you calibrate the test circuit, you're sending a known pulse that simulates a partial discharge. Because of all the parallel capacitances in play and also because you have no idea what the capacitance of the air cavity (Cp) is, it's clear that the apparent charge measured by the coupling capacitor / measuring instruments isn't actually the charge of the PD. So during calibration, you're also looking for some kind of scaling factor.

My reasoning is that the surge capacitors are like any other parallel capacitance in the test object and as long as you calibrate the test circuit correctly, then they shouldn't be a problem. I guess it could prevent smaller magnitude PDs from being detected, but you won't know until you test it.

I've done PD tests before (mainly on dry-type transformers), but I'm by no means an expert. Maybe a PD expert could shed some more light on this and confirm whether my reasoning is correct, or just stupid.
 
 http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=7b70c11e-ea58-45be-aed3-ccd6f5e57dfa&file=PD_Equiv_circuit.jpg
Thanks for those comments. I can tell you that what is inside the box called M on your diagram would be a 150k-ohm resistor. The voltage pulses accross that resistor are measured and are typically in the range of millivolts. We hook up a coax to read the voltage accross that resistor into a vendor-furnished "black box" tester (i.e. I have no idea how that black box works). The output that we get from our black-box characterizes those pulses several ways ( phase of the power frequency votlage waveform at which the pulse occurs, repetition rate of the pulses, magnitude of the pulses as a function of phase angle and magnitude). But unfortunately rise time is something not shown on our output of our black box. Off the top of my head I can’t think of the rise times of the pulses that the box senses although I have a feeling they are in the neighborhood 0.1 usec (does anyone know the rise times sensed by Iris equipment?). With the 80 pF cap and the 150Kohm resistor, we have a high-pass filter.... I will check tonight what the frequency cutoff of that filter is (unless someone here beats me to it).

I also vaguely remember that other vendors use higher capacitance of their coupling capacitor which is supposed to allow them to sense shorter-rise time (higher frequecy content) pulses, but I dont’ recall exactly why that is (as long as you’re above the cutoff of the hi-freq filter formed by R/C, why should the value of cap limit you in terms of sensing some very high frequencies?). Sorry, that’s a little bit of a tangent.

I will think a little more about your circuit. My suspicion or intuition would be that if you treat is as a lumped circuit, then the surge cap interferes with the measurement. i.e. the surge capacitor acts like a short-circuit to the initial high-rise rate and slowly recovers... and may not recover until after the pulse has finished rising. My suspicion is also that the lumped circuit doesn’t tell the whole story and the time delay inherent in the travel of the wave may tend to help somewhat. I can’t visualize what happens in this circuit that includes Tees and additional length to each capacitor to the circuit, but it can be solved by textbook methods (with SWAG on the transmission line parameters like Z0 are somewhat unknown since the ground plane is not well-defined). I have in mind to try that next weekend just to see what pops out (maybe nothing... we’ll see how that goes).


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I will mention one other fact that may or may not be coincidental. This particular family of motors that has the apparent worst-case configuration of pd coupling cap tap closest to surge cap tap is also the same family that we have seen partial discharge symptoms by visual and electrical testing which did not show up on our on-line monitoring.

The last 3 motors we pulled for refurbishment showed visual indications of pd similar to shown here:
thread237-200716

Two out of 3 failed dc step voltage test at 28kvdc (went non-linear at that very last step).

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I see now your earlier comments referred to performing calibration to convert partial discharge measurements into coulombs at the discharge site.

I know there are different philosophies on that. The philosophy of the manufacturer of our pd test equipment manufactuer(Iris) has been to report and track measurements in millivolts, without attempting to convert to coulombs There is no calibration procedure. I think the logic is that the converions are unreliable/unknown, and the millivolts are what is directly accessible, and these can be trended accross a wide range of machines statistically (perhaps under an assumption that those unknown internal conversion factors are similar among machines). I may have botched up the explanation, but it’s something like that. Their database is in millivolts as you can see in Table 1 as well as figures 4 and 5 here:


You do have to get a little philosophical to figure out what you're after in terms of a calibration factor. I am not invested/committed to either approach (millivolts or coloumbs) and not particularly concerned about calibration factor as long as I can see a change (and we have seen distinct changes associated with later-confirmed problems on some of our machines). So I guess the question is really whether the presence of these capacitors can prevent us from seeing a change in pd activity (perhaps at certain frequency).


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Right, now I see where you're coming from. I've never seen this type of PD tester before and have no idea how it works. But if you're finding evidence of PD and it's not being captured by the monitoring equipment, then that's a problem.

One option is to try offline tests with one of the most affected motors and confirm if the surge capacitors are the problem. Other than that, I'm out of ideas!
 
juleselec - Thanks for your comments about measurement. I will check around to see what we might have that can work as a signal generator.

All - I have tried to do some modeling of our term box using simple 1-D transmission lines, modeled in LT-spice. Results are in attached powerpoint.

Slides 1 and 2 provide info about the term box arrangement. Note there are some corrections to previous-stated data on top of slide 2.

Slides 3 and 4 desribe the model I used. (1-D transmission line model).

Slides 5 and 6 provide a snapshot of calculations of characteristic impedance for the various Transmission Line (TL) segments in the model. These are very rough calculations, mostly using textbook geometry of rectangular coax which most of the conductors vaguely resemble. The outer conductor is the term box ground plane. The inner conductor is the cable or bus of interest. Lots of approximations in there.

Slides 7 and 8 show the basic result which we could probably anticipate without any computer. The 0.1 usec rise time is tremendously slowed down and (once the reflection from surge cap makes it back to the measurement location), the voltage doesn't rise any faster than the R*C = Z0*C time constant of the surge cap which is on the order of 9 usec.

We can see that will be a big problem for our PD sensing. I used a ramped step with the intention that we can create a triangle pulse but superposition of two ramped steps... the 2nd one would be inverted from the first and time-shifted by the pulse width. If you take the ramp step response and invert/time-shift it by a fraction of a micro-second and add it to itself... it is never going to get anywhere near the true value.

Slide 9 was just an experiment to see if my model of TRmeas had any significant effect... it did not.

Slides 10 and 11 show results without the surge cap. Now the 0.1 usec rise time is very evident at the sensing location.

Slides 11-13 are intended to answer the question: 'What if we move the pd coupling cap tap to the other side of the bus (right where the T-leads connect to the bus). The answer seems to be no significant change... from this model. We could probably also anticipate that since the travel time associated with that bus is small compared to Z0*C time constant of the coupling cap.

If any comments or questions on this analysis I'd be interested to hear.

This is the first that I have used LT Spice mentioned by Gunnar and others. I'd have to agree that it is pretty "slick" (easy to use).


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 http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=4c36e1b3-063f-4d08-ad9c-f77199659bc0&file=TermBoxSurgeAnalysisEngTipsPost.ppt
A lot of the conclusions that we might draw depend heavily upon the nature of the pd signal coming from the motor. There are two items discussed below depending on whether we focus on faster or slower rise-time pulses than were assumed in the simulation.

Item 1 - If rise time is dramatically faster (shorter) than I assumed, such that it's shorter than the round trip travel time from pd coupling cap tap to surge cap, then the sensed pulse has an opportunity to reach it's full peak before being affected by the reflection from the surge cap. Thus moving the pd sensing tap closer to the motor may help more than suggested by above analysis if the pulse rise times are shorter.

Item 2 - If rise time is dramatically slower (longer) than I assumed, then the signal may not be affected as much by the coupling cap which acts as a low-pass filter. We can see this because the response to a step hitting the surge cap is 2*(1-exp(-t/tau)) where tau is Z0 * C. That format of the step response can be guessed from the simulations, and can also be proved mathematically. The impulse response would be the derivative of that: 2/tau * exp(-t/tau). The laplace transform of that impulse respose would be 2/(1 + s*tau). Looking in the s-plane, this has a single pole at s = -1/tau. As we vary sinusoidal frequency along the vertical axis, the highest resopnse is at w=0 (low-pass filter) with decreasing response for higher frequencies. Half power bandwidth would occur at w = -1/tau since 45-45-90 triangle tells us the distance from this point to the pole is sqrt(2) higher than at zero frequency and the response is therefore sqrt(2) lower. To convert to hz instead of frequency we divide by 2*pi. So the half-power bandwidth of the low-pass filter associated with our surge capacitor and our associated cabling (as modeled) is 1/(2*pi*tau) = 1/(2*pi*Z0*C) = 1/ (2*pi*9 usec) = 17,700 hz. So for pulses with frequency content on this order or lower, the surge cap may not have dramatic effect (of course the low-pass filter model applies only after the time period required for the round trip time between pd coupling cap and surge cap, but that time would be negligible for the pulses with content below 17,700 hz).


At this point, it seems appropriate to revist the bandwidth of the hi-pass filtering effect associated with the measurement R/C circuit. Input voltage is applied to series R and C and output voltage is measured accrss the resistor. So we have:
Vout/Vin = R/(R+1/(sC)) = s*C*R / (s*C*R+1)
(where these are measurement circuit R and C... R=150K, C=80pF)..
This RC filter is a little more complicated filter than the last one because it includes not only a pole on the negative real axis (at s=-1/(RC) similar to the last pole) but also a zero at the origin. I am not sure how to get a closed form solution of the half-power bandwidth, but numerically I solved it for these specific values using Maple:
> Hfilter:=R/(R+1/(s*C));
> Hfilter1:=subs(s=I*w,Hfilter);
> Hfilter1:=subs([s=I*w,R=150E3, C=80E-12],Hfilter1);
> Hfiltermag:=evalc(abs(Hfilter1));
> whalf:=solve(Hfiltermag=0.707,w);
> Fhalf:=evalf(whalf[2]/(2*Pi));

This results in Fhalf = 13,300 hz.

At first glance (*), it looks like there is not a lot of room between the 13,300hz measurement system hi-pass filter cutoff and the 17,700 surge cap low-pass filter effect.... and therefore it doesn't seem like the surge cap will allow many pulses to be seen (other than those fast ones that reveal themselves before the surge cap low-pass filter kicks in as discussed in item 1). * I do realize that I need to be careful in characterizing waveforms and filters by a single number and will give that some more thought... but interested if anyone else sees a flaw in this logic.

I am left with a lot of questions mostly centering around what kind of pulses and waveforms do we expect to measure. I will certainly contact the PD equipment OEM to discuss this further and gather their insights.

Meanwhile... any other thoughts on the problem or the analysis?


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Previous simulation had a small complication factor from the source resistance inserted to prevent reflections from the source. That was an unnecessary complicaiton.... I repeated with a different source model that simply makes the source transmission delay long enough that source reflections will not occur during the timeframe of the simulation.

Attached are results:
Slide 1 - Base case / existing configuration
Slide 2 - Results for slide 1 configuraiton
Slide 3 - Circuit with surge cap removed/open-circuited
Slide 4 - Results for slide 3 configuration
Slide 5 - Circuit with pd coupling capacitor tap moved closer to the motor (other side of the bus).
Slide 6 - Results for slide 5 configuration.

Qualitative comparison of results still shows same conclusuions, but it is perhaps a fairer comparison among the waveforms. Note in all cases the input pulse (not plotted) would be the ramp rising from 0 to 1 in 0.1 usec. Slide 3/4 with surge cap removed is the only one where the quick rise time is seen by the measurement resistor.... We can explain that result (why one half instead of 1) using a simplified model which ignores the very short propogation times and the very short open stub, and simply connects the input pulse from the source to 3 other branches (one for the pd coupling cap and two for the output power cables). Then we have output characteristic impedance for 3 parallel lines approx 1/3 of input chracteristic impedance so the transmitted signal is (2* (1/3)/(1/3 + 1) = 1/2.

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 http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=f8c09ec1-1275-4dd1-91cd-2bc9e22ccf90&file=TermBoxSurgeAnalysisEngTipsPostR2.ppt
I realized the filter half-power cutoff frequency expression has the same form (w_halfpower = 1/(RC) or 1/(ZC) ), regardless of whether we are looking at the measurement high-pass filter or the surge cap low-pass filter ( but for different reasons). So the cutoff frequency that I calculated using Maple above for the R/C hi-pass (13,300hz) could have also been calculated simply as 1/(R*C*2*pi).

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