online engineering for sale 8

[JAE]

Came across this website -

http://www.virtualengineer.com/

- Nothing too exceptional about it but it got me to thinking -
Under US engineering laws, if one "sells" engineering consulting (i.e. "need a beam size" statement from the website) and the person asking, and the project, is in a state in which the online engineer is not licensed, and they provide a beam size, doesn't this violate the law?

 

[strucguy]

Here's another scenario. There is a person B who starts offering Engineering services via Internet and operates from country C where the law of the land let's him run the business. How do you except our state boards will handle that situation? I am not trying to offend anyone here. Just playing a devil's advocate.

 

[GregLocock]

So the closed shop wants to defend its turf. Any union will try and and pull the same deal. Just because they say it doesn't make it so. When does Illinois cut its T1 cables to the world wide web?


Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[JAE]

strucguy - I think with both your scenarios the state would have to decide A) whether their law was broken and B) whether to pursue the person.

Might be a lot of different variables that they'd have to consider and take each case one at a time.

Greg - I'm not trying to defend the state's laws, just exploring how the current laws get applied to online/internet situations which, In my view, the laws don't define very well.
I think you are partially correct - I'd revise your sentence to read: "just because they say it doesn't mean they have the power, time or money to make it so."
Illinois is going broke last time I looked.

 

[Ron]

Greg...in general, licensed professional engineers are not unionized. It has been tried numerous times, but so far has not taken hold, fortunately.

The Illinois opinion is not unique. It is similar to the approach taken in Florida for such. The key is "offering" the services. If you do so, then you must comply with the state law in which the offer is made. For internet services, that means essentially anywhere.

Like you noted before (realizing of course that your comment was sarcasm, though accurate!), if the internet didn't cross state lines (country borders) then the issue wouldn't exist. Well, it does and it does.

 

[strucguy]

JAE -

Here's my take....the state boards can do NOTHING in both the scenarios.

In the first scenario the engineer is very well licensed in state of illinois and has the legal right to offer design services as long as he/she is not breaking laws of illinois or the laws of the jurisdiction his projects may fall under.

In scenario 2....the business is based in country C which is beyond our boards' jurisdiction. They best they can do is to have it blocked by feds. Good luck with that. If only talking a website down is that easy....you won't be seeing all these websites blatantly hosting pirated movies....which by the way is illegal.

 

[JAE]

First scenario - totally agree.

Second scenario - The state would be pretty helpless to do anything to the person out of country. However, if that person has other state licenses the state in question could possibly report them to the other states and those states could take action on their licenses (i.e. suspend the licenses). Also, the local state board could possibly notify cities and other local jurisdictions that the person is not licensed.

 

[strucguy]

Why do you think the person would carry any license if he able to deliver his services without one. The point I was trying to make....rather than chasing flies let's fix the system and educate the public about hiring a licensed engineer. And, if possible....let's deviate from the current protectionist licensing practices in 50 different states and have one unified and effective licensing authority. That's just my opinion

 

[JAE]

I think I heard a legal opinion once that one nation-wide license would not be possible without amending the US Constitution. States have the power to regulate their in-state commerce.

 

[woodman88]

So let's say I move to Illinois but offer to do structural engineering for projects in Arizona. Can I do this, offer and doing engineering services in the state of Illinois for projects in Arizona? After all the Illinois Act does not say anything about the projects needing to be in Illinois.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[strucguy]

Didn't the states agree upon a unified exam? Let them even agree upon a unified licensing requirements. And, let A body like NCEES handle all the paper work for the states. That way our boards can be efficient and effective. And, we engineers don't have to struggle to maintain multiple state licenses. I know multiple engineers who had to take their PE exam again to get licensed in a different state. All because some of the people in the boards lack commonsense.

 

[JAE]

woodman88 - per the blue quote I posted above from Illinois:
[blue]If a person is based in Illinois, and offers services out of Illinois, that person must meet Illinois requirements for licensure, regardless of whether the services are for Illinois or not. [/blue]

 

[IRstuff]

"Anyone offering engineering services in Illinois, whether it be on the internet or based in an office in either Illinois or another state, without being licensed in Illinois, could be considered to be in violation of the Act and Administrative Rules. If the office is in Illinois, it must conform to the laws regarding practice.
If a person is based in Illinois, and offers services out of Illinois, that person must meet Illinois requirements for licensure, regardless of whether the services are for Illinois or not. "

That's the answer. Nowhere does the site offer services outside of California, nor is that implied. Under standard business practices, you are offering product or services from your physical location, not the customer's location, unless that's explicitly called out by contract.

Note the weaselwording, " could be considered to be in violation," which is a less that strict constraint. That means that it has either never been tested, or only inconclusively tested.

TTFN
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[Forensic74]

You guys still haven't defined what "offering engineering services" is.

I have hired other engineers for their professional opinion on certain projects, much like how you give out your opinions and judgement albeit free. Are both considered to be engineering services? What defines this?

 

[IRstuff]

In the California PE act, we have:
"“Professional engineer,” within the meaning and intent of this act, refers to a person engaged in the professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education, training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures, machines, processes, circuits, buildings, equipment or projects, and supervision of construction for the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work."

TTFN
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[woodman88]

JAE
"woodman88 - per the blue quote I posted above from Illinois:
If a person is based in Illinois, and offers services out of Illinois, that person must meet Illinois requirements for licensure, regardless of whether the services are for Illinois or not."

The quote is from the board "pretty strong response" to your question. Is is not from the engineer act that was quoted there.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[racookpe1978]

All's well ... that doesn't break.

"I" would be scared to death of insuring this guy for ANY project in ANY nation or ANY state that used his numbers. As long as the house, sign, or room extension didn't fall down, sure, the guy would likely make money.

But when the house needs $150,000.00 in new work and drywall and replacement walls because the floor sags because the beam sags because the beam was resting on an un-reinforced masonry wall that had cracks and was already sagging ....