online engineering for sale 8

[JAE]

Came across this website -

http://www.virtualengineer.com/

- Nothing too exceptional about it but it got me to thinking -
Under US engineering laws, if one "sells" engineering consulting (i.e. "need a beam size" statement from the website) and the person asking, and the project, is in a state in which the online engineer is not licensed, and they provide a beam size, doesn't this violate the law?

 

[JAE]

That's true.
But "beam size" implies that any other design solutions are available as well I guess.

I'm not reporting the guy. It will be interesting to see if, in the coming years, we hear about engineering boards responding to things like this more often.

 

[itdepends]

This is not Malaysia. It's just not the same thing legally. It is the US, and the guy is licensed in California. He should know the law here, and, hopefully as the US citizen that he is, is certainsly subject to them. Even if yhe is not a citizen, he is still subject to, and bound by, the laws of the state in which he resides. Let the state boards decide on this one... again.

Hate to break it to you- but "This" or "here" (being Eng Tips or the web) is not the US either- it's a website accessed by engineers internationally. Local laws where the server/contributors etc are based will differ. I'm in Australia for example.

As a chem eng/metallurgist the first part of any answer I give starts with "It Depends"

 

[IRstuff]

The question is whether his website is considered to be an "offer to practice engineering" in a particular state. The answer, most likely, is no. Since the person is not physically in the other states; they cannot claim that he's "practicing engineering" "in" their state, particularly if the same activity is legal in the person's home state, and the person cannot be proven to perform these activities "in" a state where he's not licensed. So long as he is performing legal acts within the state where he is physically located, the fact that his customers are out of state would seem to be irrelevant, particularly if there is no federal law that applies.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[Forensic74]

Does providing a design solution immediately break licensing rules? ie, Are you required to stamp plans with beam or footing sizes that contractors use for estimating a project?

 

[JAE]

I don't think so in all cases. Some beam sizes might be for residential homes where an engineering stamp is not required.

 

[drawoh]

...

Hate to break it to you- but "This" or "here" (being Eng Tips or the web) is not the US either- it's a website accessed by engineers internationally. Local laws where the server/contributors etc are based will differ. I'm in Australia for example.

Then again this could be Malaysia, and the guy is not licensed to practice, as far as we know.

--
JHG

 

[IRstuff]

Which guy? The one in the OP's link? He is licensed in California for architecture, civil and structural, as stated in his website.

http://www2.dca.ca.gov/pls/wllpub/WLLQRYNA$LCEV2.QueryView?P_LICENSE_NUMBER=22159&P_LTE_ID=1010

http://www2.dca.ca.gov/pls/wllpub/WLLQRYNA$LCEV2.QueryView?P_LICENSE_NUMBER=23105&P_LTE_ID=741

http://www2.dca.ca.gov/pls/wllpub/WLLQRYNA$LCEV2.QueryView?P_LICENSE_NUMBER=2074&P_LTE_ID=737

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[msquared48]

Exactly IR...

He, the Architect/Engineer in question that posted the website, is licensed to practice in California in an A/E role, with all the limitations and priviliges of those titles, for projects that are in California - but nowhere else where licensure for similar projects is required, at least according to his website posting.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Then he can only prctice in CA - I have no problem with that. But many states say you have to "meet" with client and ascertain their real needs and survey the project. Kind of hard to do over the "Net"

 

[cvg]

Does providing a design solution immediately break licensing rules? ie, Are you required to stamp plans with beam or footing sizes that contractors use for estimating a project?

at least in some states, the answer is yes.

for one particular state, here are the rules and most other states are similar

Use of Seals
A. A permanently legible imprint of the registrant’s seal and signature shall appear on the following:
1. Each sheet of drawings or maps;
2. Each of the master sheets when reproduced into a single set of finished drawings or maps;
3. Either the cover, title, index page, or first sheet of each set of project specifications;
4. The cover, index page, or first sheet of addenda or change orders to specifications;
5. The cover, index page, or first sheet of bound details when prepared to supplement project drawings or maps;
6. The cover, index, table of contents page, or first sheet of reports, specifications, and other professional documents prepared by a registrant or the registrant’s bona fide employee; and

...
D. A registrant shall sign, date and seal a professional document before the document is submitted to a client, contractor, any regulatory or review body, or any other person, unless the document is marked “preliminary” or “not for construction.”

 

[msquared48]

And JAE, in your post of Feb 4 a few posts up you stated that "If they do that - and don't give a damn where the project is, and they provide a beam size for example, they are breaking the law if it's in a state where they are licensed."

I assume you meant to say "... in a state where they are NOT licensed.", correct?


Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[strucguy]

There are may countries I know that follow British standards and don't require an engineer to be registered to provide design services for minor buildings and in some cases for all buildings. Also, there any many states in US that don't require physical presence or even ask for personal interaction with client to deliver design services.

 

[IRstuff]

"for projects that are in California - but nowhere else where licensure for similar projects is required, at least according to his website posting."

Precisely, he's doing all his engineering in Mendecino, CA, so I still don't see where he's breaking any California laws, or any other states' laws. Moreover, in California, homeowners are exempt as well, providing they meed code and have proper permits. If other states have similar laws, then any homeowner can task this guy to draw up plans and use them without violating any laws. There are several companies that provide this type of service:

http://lindal.com/homes/gallery/home_plan_spotlights.cfm

TTFN
faq731-376

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[msquared48]

IR:

For me to do a project that is in California, I have to get licensed in California. Currently I am not. I would lose my license in Washington if I did so, if I was censured by the state board in California for doing so - they would let the Washington State board know.

This case is no different, just the players and states are changed here.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[FACS]

I wonder if he has picked up any new business with all the new hits you just gave his website...

Charlie

http://www.facsco.com

 

[strucguy]

msquared48 -

How can you conclude the professional under consideration is trying to do a project in a state that he is not licensed in. Just because he/she is offering his/her services online?? Why can't we just assume that apart from California, he may be offering services in those areas or countries that don't require an engineer to be licensed? That could be a possibility, right? Then, I don't see anything unlawful about the case.

 

[msquared48]

If that is all it is, I might agree, but I see no disclaimers or limitations advertised that would lead me there. Would it not be prudent for him to include such statements on his website so we do not have to have discussions such as this?

You know, I strongly suspect that when the state licensing laws in most of the states were written, the web did not exist with all of the ramifications mentioned here. I stll maintain that this issue will have to be sorted out by the individual state boards. It will not be solved here.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[GregLocock]

The safest assumption when dealing with engineers is that the other guy is not entirely stupid. I expect if you ask him to work on a project where he is not allowed to go beyond general advice, then he will specify that the calculations are preliminary only and the final design will need to be prepared by a PE in that state. As for overseas work, I am sure there are more than a few PEs doing precisely that.

Sure there is the potential to be breaking your closed shop laws, then again every time I get in my car I could break the law, the cops don't arrest me on sight.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[JAE]

I asked a couple of state boards in which I'm licensed about this question - Illinois provided a pretty strong response:

[blue]
Anyone offering engineering services in Illinois, whether it be on the internet or based in an office in either Illinois or another state, without being licensed in Illinois, could be considered to be in violation of the Act and Administrative Rules. If the office is in Illinois, it must conform to the laws regarding practice.
If a person is based in Illinois, and offers services out of Illinois, that person must meet Illinois requirements for licensure, regardless of whether the services are for Illinois or not.

The law of Illinois extends to anyone who "offers" services, therefore just the offering of services is a violation unless the person is licensed. A person offering services in Illinois, whether based in Illinois or not, is in violation of Illinois law unless licensed.

A person offering services from a base in Illinois must be licensed under Illinois law as the offering of services, not just the practicing is actionable.

The following is from the SE Act:
(225 ILCS 340/20.5)
(Section scheduled to be repealed on January 1, 2020)
Sec. 20.5. Unlicensed practice; violation; civil penalty.
(a) Any person who practices, offers to practice, attempts to practice, or holds oneself out to practice structural engineering without being licensed under this Act shall, in addition to any other penalty provided by law, pay a civil penalty to the Department in an amount not to exceed $10,000 for each offense as determined by the Department. The civil penalty shall be assessed by the Department after a hearing is held in accordance with the provisions set forth in this Act regarding the provision of a hearing for the discipline of a licensee.
(b) The Department has the authority and power to investigate any and all unlicensed activity.
(c) The civil penalty shall be paid within 60 days after the effective date of the order imposing the civil penalty. The order shall constitute a judgment and may be filed and execution had thereon in the same manner as any judgment from any court of record.
(Source: P.A. 96-610, eff. 8-24-09.)

[/blue]

 

[strucguy]

JAE -

Here's a scenario. Let's just assume person A is a licensed engineer in the state of illinois. And, that person A wants to provide engineering services via internet to projects in areas that don't require him/her to be a licensed engineer (in addition to the projects in his home state). Do you see anything wrong with that? I don't.

Now for that scenario what kind of disclaimer would you like to see beyond this one "I am an engineer licensed in Illinois"?