New patio roof beam 7

[DoubleStud]

What do you guys typically like to do if you are doing a new patio roof? So you have a ridge beam and two shoulder beams. Do you nest these beams inside the wall on a studpack all the way to the foundation with king stud each side? Or do you install a full studpack in the wall and connect the beam to the studpack using some kind of a hanger?

 

[milkshakelake]

I use a bearing connection on the stud pack/post. I like to use bearing connections instead of side connections like hangers whenever possible. It's better structurally because of a direct, reliable load path. It also shouldn't be too difficult if you're using platform framing. It's also why I try to avoid balloon framing on principle.

When I use hangers or clips, it's because I don't really have a choice (like beam-beam or beam-joist connection).

 

[DoubleStud]

OK, I was just wondering maybe it is better to totally separate the structure.

 

[Eng16080]

My approach is the same as milkshakelake. I always prefer a direct bearing connection. It will perform better long term and is less error prone and easier to construct.

If it wasn't for architects needing to hide every beam within the floor on these projects, I would use drop beams everywhere for floor framing rather than a million joist hangers. (Of course, then I'd lose all the supposed money and free vacations these builders are convinced Simpson is giving me in commission!)

 

[milkshakelake]

OK, I was just wondering maybe it is better to totally separate the structure.

Clip angle or hanger connection from the side is not separating it, even if using a ledger. A separated porch with its own lateral system (i.e. some bracing) and some physical separation might be what you're talking about, but I don't really see the need for that. I don't see what you would gain. Maybe seismic gap, or better ability to insulate the building envelope? Those are valid, but it seems like overkill.

Of course, then I'd lose all the supposed money and free vacations these builders are convinced Simpson is giving me in commission!

Wait, you're not getting that money?

About dropped beams, one issue is blocking. It adds cost and complexity compared to hangers, even if it's a more reliable load path. The other issue, which is not that major, is that hangers are better for torsionally restraining both the top and bottom of the beam. So I'm not sure I agree 100% about the dropped beam thing. Of course, the bottom of the dropped beam is generally in tension, so I'm not worried too much. I'd just rather have that additional restraint than not have it.

 

[EdStainless]

Here in WI this would be free standing.
Since if it attached to the house it would need to meet the code requirements for a house, including foundation.
Decks and patio roofs usually built separate and to a lower standard.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

 

[JAE]

I like to use bearing over columns as well but for your extended roof you need to pay attention to lateral forces as well.
If you run a stud pack up to the bottom of your new beams, what keeps the entire roof system from pulling away from the house?
You need to ensure that there is a horizontal load path that can take this load into the house floor and roof diaphragms.

For your porch roof - the roof appears to be simply cantilevered out from the house with no other lateral bracing system.
This means that, as the new roof gets loaded laterally, the new eave beams will want to push and/or pull in a direction perpendicular to the exterior wall of the house.

A stud pack spanning from floor to floor, with adequate connections top and bottom is one method.

 

[kissymoose]

I've been specifying concealed flange hangers recently. Don't have to interrupt shearwall chords or corner studs, and for existing structures where you know where the studs are, you don't have to have to tear into the wall.

 

[Eng16080]

milkshakelake, those are all good points concerning the dropped beam. I was exaggerating slightly saying I'd use them everywhere. My typical detail involves solid blocking over the beam and some type of connection between the joists and beam, usually hurricane ties. The biggest downside is probably the lack of bracing at the bottom of the beam as you mention, although obviously it's not an issue if the beam is simply supported. The negatives of the flush framed condition are a less reliable connection, possible torsion on the beam, and possible differential shrinkage between the joist and beam (like in the case of sawn lumber joists supported by an LVL).

I agree with JAEs comment. You should have a load path anchoring the roof into the building, kind of similar to an exterior deck.

 

[JStructsteel]

On top of studpack, w/ Simpson caps. Usually the ECC family

 

[hokie66]

The one I designed and built for myself is free standing. But then, I like columns.

 

[SE2607]

I guess I disagree with the consensus. I would rather put a side load hanger, designing the post for the eccentricity than poke a hole in the wall. I know it's easier to design a concentrically loaded post and throw a "standard" detail on the plans, but I don't think that's the best detail nor do I think it's easier to build.

Just my two cents.

 

[SE2607]

On top of studpack, w/ Simpson caps. Usually the ECC family

A Simpson ECCQ44 is almost $90. A Simpson EPC4Z is about $25.00.

 

[DoubleStud]

JAE, correct. To be honest, that’s why I asked this question. If I nest it, 4 of the stud pack isnt really taking the lateral load, who knows how many king studs I need. But if I connect it with a hanger, all studs will span from diaphragm to diaphragm. But now I need to make sure the hanger can take the axial pulling load. I just want to know what’s best before I start detailing and run numbers. If I put it inside wall, and I have enough king studs to transfer the load, how do I connect it to make sure it doesn’t pull out?

 

[JAE]

If I put it inside wall, and I have enough king studs to transfer the load, how do I connect it to make sure it doesn’t pull out?

To install the king studs, the interior sheathing probably needs to be removed and perhaps some of the exterior sheathing around the beam penetration to allow the new studs to be installed.

The connection at the base would typically be steel angle brackets (Simpson has some) that would nail to the floor sill plate perhaps - then chase down to the diaphragm with extra nails.

At the top it depends on the floor framing above (joist orientation) but some means of strapping to floor joists or to the floor sheathing with blocking and straps might be necessary.

 

[Eng16080]

For the ridge and shoulder beams, as already discussed above, I think I would use direct bearing, although there are plenty of good arguments for the alternative.

For lateral loads, I'll typically rely on a ledger along the roof profile connected with wood screws into the center of each wall stud. The roof sheathing is nailed to the ledger with nails at 6" or 4" o.c. For roofs which aren't too large, this should be adequate to resist the lateral forces from the roof. For larger roofs or where the lateral loads are more significant, I might add hold-down connectors which are ideally anchored into the floor. In this case, I would expect there to be a location where each ledger crosses the floor framing, and that's where I might add a hold-down (if it's needed).

 

[JAE]

Even for small roofs, the horizontal load on the two eve beams could be substantial. Specially, when you consider the fact that an open patio many times is closed off with screens or windows, which would increase the lateral load on the porch.

 

[SE2607]

how do I connect it to make sure it doesn’t pull out?

You can use SDS screws instead of nails to connect the face mount HUC hanger to the post.

 

[phamENG]

SDS screws are great, but I'm pretty sure those hangers don't have any listed capacities for loads in that direction.

 

[phamENG]

I prefer a bearing pocket with full height studs on both sides for 1) stability at bearing and 2) resisting out of plane forces on the wall from the diaphragm chords of the porch roof. If I can get tension ties into a floor diaphragm (like the standard deck detail) I'll try for it, but sometimes that can leave you with an unacceptable aspect ratio in the porch roof diaphragm. And sometimes it's a great room with 20ft ceilings.

If it requires work inside, it requires work inside. As long as they don't have 200 year old horse hair plaster walls, it's almost always easier to make changes to the interior finish (though occasionally they are stripping the exterior to do a brick or stone veneer inside the porch). I have done some that act as independent structures, but when they see the cost of columns and foundations or the bracing/wall segments they have to add, they often relent and let the contractor cut some holes in the living room.