Modifying sealed drawings 13

[PEN1460]

I had a heated discussion with my boss's son today (both non-engineer) and I told him I have evidence that they have modified stamped drawings when we get our final design back. He said that it was perfectly ok "if you make the member bigger". That's not entirely true because when I design portal frames, a W8X10 has a larger ry value than W10X12 or W12X14. Sometimes that pushes the kl/r ratio above 200. That's perfectly fine, IFF you design for it. What is your view on modifying stamped drawings?

 

[JLNJ]

It is never OK. Period.

 

[phamENG]

Absolutely not. If you need it revised, you go back to the engineer. As you mentioned, member size changes can have unintended consequences. That's especially true in seismic design with capacity based connection requirements, etc. Then there's concrete, where special consideration has to be made to balance area of the member vs. area of reinforcement (to name only one factor). Back to steel, sure - it's deeper and maybe even heavier, but is it still stable? Will that member now buckle laterally before the originally designed member? How does it impact discreet brace sizing (which has stiffness requirements based on load in the member AND factors like member depth, etc.) and connection detailing?

There a LOT of things that may not be immediately obvious. It may have no impact, or it may have a lot of impact. There's only person to make that decision - the person who has put his/her name on the line for the design. If another engineer wants to say different, they can put their stamp on it.

It's also very possible that modifying those drawings is violating state law. By changing the drawing and then trying to pass it off as though it was done by an engineer...something feels illegal about that. If anything goes wrong, your company will be on the hook for all of it if the engineer can prove you messed with his drawings.

 

[Enable]

JLNJ has it. Flat no. Run. Run very far away from this place and do not think twice. If someone is willing to tamper with sealed drawings, no telling what other kind of nonsense they are up to. You don't want to be part of that.

In case my position was unclear: Run. Run fast.

 

[WARose]

I left somewhere when I discovered the construction division of the company I worked for was doing that (without my knowledge). To do that without the knowledge of the EOC is big time no-no.

 

[phamENG]

Here's a case of NSPE concluding that a licensed engineer doing what you're talking about to be unethical, and as such could leave them subject to discipline by a state licensing board. The fact that your company is doing it without input from an engineer is even worse.

 

[dik]

In many jurisdictions, it is likely illegal.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Enable]

On second thought maybe these guys were on to something. I mean, why did I even need to go to school for engineering? Should have skipped the four years and just downloaded a PDF editor. Now that's efficiency!

 

[1503-44]

It is called "practising engineering without a license". Google your state's laws for that offense.

 

[PEN1460]

I have a contract with this company that he would pay my student loans and I would pay him back with a lower simple interest. He worded that in a way that if I leave for any reason, the entire amount would be due right then and there. I called the texas board, but they couldn't do anything about it since it happened in new mexico. I guess I could have called them too. Texas did say that if it happened again to let them know.

 

[gte447f]

Unless I'm missing something here (quite possible I guess), this situation is pretty cut and dry, and it ain't good.
Not sure why you are talking about Texas and New Mexico. Obviously you need to call the state where these folks are practicing engineering without a license, not some other state. Regardless, what these folks are doing is likely (99.999%) illegal and 100% unethical. You ought to disassociate yourself from characters like this immediately. The engineers involved should hit them with a civil suit. I would tell your former boss to kiss my a$$ on the loan situation.

 

[1503-44]

They can't force you to do or be associated with illegal activities. That might free you from a lump sum payback clause. Suggest you talk to a lawyer about it.

 

[Rabbit12]

I agree with 1503. You need to talk to a lawyer. These guys are exposing you and your license to potential problems.

And yes, you need to call the New Mexico board.

 

[WARose]

And yes, you need to call the New Mexico board.

I'd e-mail first....then call (as a follow up, if needed). And save a hard copy of all related correspondence. You want some sort of record of what these guys are doing. A complaint made before the fact looks much better than something goes wrong.....and then you told the board what these guys are doing.

 

[azcats]

I don't understand why they're changing your drawings if they're your employer. Why not just tell you to change the drawings? What is their motivation here?

I'm certainly not excusing their actions but this doesn't sound like your typical fraud or stealing of the seal.

I just heard from a former coworker that a client of his was taking sealed special inspection forms and changing the address and submitting to the city for the next site. When asked about it, the client didn't even realize they were doing something wrong (not that bright) and thought they were doing the engineer a favor by saving the time and effort. Obviously not the same as changing member sizes - but still modifying a sealed document.

 

[JLNJ]

Are nurses allowed to add things to a Dr.'s report if they make the patient's condition appear "worse"?

Are administrative assistants permitted to edit a lawyer's text as long as they "tighten it up a bit"?

Then maybe the flight attendants can fly the plane at higher elevations, you know, farther from the ground?

Or the pit crew can take over for the driver during laps under caution?

 

[kipfoot]

It's unanimous.

 

[dik]

The first thing I would do, is make a phone call to them... it's the most direct and the approach most likely to resolve this for all parties. I had a recent incident where a fabricator changed the drawing I reviewed from 'for approval' to 'for fabrication'... easy to resolve... he won't do it again... I explained to him what the problem was, and he apologised profusely.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[phamENG]

Now that we've firmly established that this is not okay - can you give some more details of the situation? Why did they did do it? Beam X was specified but you had a few of beam Y in the yard the last job? I'm curious...

 

[WARose]

The first thing I would do, is make a phone call to them... it's the most direct and the approach most likely to resolve this for all parties. I had a recent incident where a fabricator changed the drawing I reviewed from 'for approval' to 'for fabrication'... easy to resolve... he won't do it again... I explained to him what the problem was, and he apologised profusely.

According to the OP, it sounds like he is working with these people (i.e. they are closer than a phone call).....also, it doesn't sound like they are apologizing profusely. It sounds more like they are justifying it. (And may do it again.) [Correct me if I am wrong PEN1460.]

Definitely this calls for a e-mail to the board(s) involved. If I was the OP.....at this point....I'd be wondering: how many other times have they done this without my knowledge?

Best to get a paper trail started now then before phone calls about problems with designs appear. (As I said before.)

This sort of thing is why I keep a pdf of every drawing I seal.