Legal Thoughts on Stamping Plans 3

[Bammer25]

I get asked all the time to stamp plans. Normally they are internet plans or plans some draftsman has come up with with very little structural information. I do it and people get their permit, I get paid, everything is great.

I fully realize I should seek out a lawyer and not some internet forum, but do you guys know the ins and outs of this as far as legal issues? I am stamping it saying I concur with the information, not claiming the work as my own. I never put my company logo on the drawings.

What do you think? I am sure this has been discussed.

 

[jerseyshore]

This discussion has bounced around a bunch of different topics with each new response.

Is OP bordering on "unlicensed practice of architecture" as well here?

I have known PE's that got caught S&S drawings outside their area of expertise (e.g. a civil signing electrical plans). I also know architects who got major fines for S&S someone else's house drawings.

But what is the legality of a PE signing and sealing an entire house set (ignoring the internet plan thing for a second)? This is assuming they are following the IBC/IRC. Anyone have experience with this?

 

[XR250]

I fully realize I should seek out a lawyer and not some internet forum, but do you guys know the ins and outs of this as far as legal issues?

Most lawyers would have no idea about this. You need to contact your Board and run the specifics by them.

 

[Bammer25]

@Bammer25 , kudos to you for asking questions and continuing to participate in this discussion. I do not want to "gang up" on you. I am curious about your circumstance though. Mainly, what exactly you are reviewing and why. You say that these are generic house plans, but you also mention the IBC (not just IRC) and occupant loads over 12. I am not an architect, but to my knowledge the IRC does not address occupant load in one and two family dwellings. I gather that these are probably vacation homes located in the smoky mountains region of east Tennessee. You mention that they are rentals. I know that vacation rentals often advertise sleeping capacities above 12, but those are usually just made up numbers with no codified basis. Are these buildings issued a residential or commercial building permit? I can only assume residential, otherwise it would seem that a commercial permit under the IBC would require much more than some generic stamped plans. So what is triggering these "reviews"? How does the AHJ even know these will be rentals? Who is calculating the occupancy load that is supposedly triggering the requirement for these "reviews", and where is this requirement even coming from? When you stamp these drawings, what exactly are you certifying, what information? I have certainly never seen a generic house plan that includes occupant load calculations.

Yes, they are overnight rentals. Tons of them here. When the occupancy load is over 12 and 20, there are different sets of rules. Plans sealed. Life safety and emergency lighting included. Sprinkled, etc. and yes, you enter IBC and it’s essentially treated as a commercial building. Also, the local codes enforcement and fire marshall have gotten very creative and have their own sets of rules that are constantly changing. It’s a bear in the contractor and the owner having to constantly jump through hoops.

They even recently made existing homes all come up to current codes or de-rate their occupancy levels to under 12 and have no overnights. It’s a lot to juggle.

None of that has to do with rubber stamping. Just the background. They require the plans to be stamped by an engineer or architect that they have reviewed them. Their rarely are any structural members called out, but that is not always the case.

 

[Bammer25]

Let me ask you guys this. I am not trying to argue or fight. I know a lot of you think it’s fun to jump on the OP and what not. And that is fine, but i am generally trying to find the truth and protect myself.

An architect produces a full set. It does not have structural. But it will have electrical pages. How do they get around that? They are not an electrical engineer any more than I am. I realize they are bland and cookie cutter.

I am thinking I can tell clients I can only sign off for the structural package that I develop, but that leaves them with a half or quarter set of drawings.

 

[gte447f]

Let me ask you guys this. I am not trying to argue or fight. I know a lot of you think it’s fun to jump on the OP and what not. And that is fine, but i am generally trying to find the truth and protect myself.

An architect produces a full set. It does not have structural. But it will have electrical pages. How do they get around that? They are not an electrical engineer any more than I am. I realize they are bland and cookie cutter.

I am thinking I can tell clients I can only sign off for the structural package that I develop, but that leaves them with a half or quarter set of drawings.

@Bammer25, as to whether or not a stamp is even required, my state has the following exception within the law for architects:

(b) Construction documents for the following structures do not require the seal of a registered architect:

• (1) One and two-family residences and domestic outbuildings regardless of cost;

and for engineers:

1. Nothing in this Code section shall be held to apply to any construction, including alterations, of which the completed cost is less than $100,000.00 or which is used exclusively for private or noncommercial purposes, or to private residences, or to noncommercial farm buildings, or to residence buildings not exceeding two stories in height, excluding basements.

The above is generally why plans for residences (private) are not required to be stamped by a licensed design professional.

As to how an architect might stamp a residential framing plan (which I have seen several times) or a electrical layout plan (per your question), maybe they are applying the following bolded part:

• (11) "Practice of architecture" means the rendering of or offer to render the following services in connection with the design, construction, enlargement, or alteration of a building or group of buildings and the space within and surrounding such buildings, which may have human occupancy or habitation: planning; providing preliminary studies, designs, drawings, specifications, and other technical submissions; the architectural administering of construction contracts; and coordinating elements of technical submissions prepared by others including, as appropriate and without limitation, consulting engineers, registered interior designers, and landscape architects. As part of the practice of architecture, a registered architect may perform such engineering work as is incidental to his or her work. Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit a licensed engineer from coordinating technical submittals related to the practice of engineering. Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit a registered interior designer from coordinating submittals related to the practice of interior design.

What is meant by and considered "such engineering work as is incidental..." is undefined and unclear to me. These things can get murky, as with all things in the law.

 

[Bammer25]

@Bammer25, as to whether or not a stamp is even required, my state has the following exception within the law for architects:

(b) Construction documents for the following structures do not require the seal of a registered architect:

• (1) One and two-family residences and domestic outbuildings regardless of cost;

and for engineers:

1. Nothing in this Code section shall be held to apply to any construction, including alterations, of which the completed cost is less than $100,000.00 or which is used exclusively for private or noncommercial purposes, or to private residences, or to noncommercial farm buildings, or to residence buildings not exceeding two stories in height, excluding basements.

The above is generally why plans for residences (private) are not required to be stamped by a licensed design professional.

As to how an architect might stamp a residential framing plan (which I have seen several times) or a electrical layout plan (per your question), maybe they are applying the following bolded part:

• (11) "Practice of architecture" means the rendering of or offer to render the following services in connection with the design, construction, enlargement, or alteration of a building or group of buildings and the space within and surrounding such buildings, which may have human occupancy or habitation: planning; providing preliminary studies, designs, drawings, specifications, and other technical submissions; the architectural administering of construction contracts; and coordinating elements of technical submissions prepared by others including, as appropriate and without limitation, consulting engineers, registered interior designers, and landscape architects. As part of the practice of architecture, a registered architect may perform such engineering work as is incidental to his or her work. Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit a licensed engineer from coordinating technical submittals related to the practice of engineering. Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit a registered interior designer from coordinating submittals related to the practice of interior design.

What is meant by and considered "such engineering work as is incidental..." is undefined and unclear to me. These things can get murky, as with all things in the law.

Thanks. Good stuff. I could not tell you what the exact laws are here for stamps and not. I can only tell you that the local jurisdictions where I am at have their own rules before giving a building permit. Joe blows home in xyz neighborhood certainly would not require it.

 

[gte447f]

Thanks. Good stuff. I could not tell you what the exact laws are here for stamps and not. I can only tell you that the local jurisdictions where I am at have their own rules before giving a building permit. Joe blows home in xyz neighborhood certainly would not require it.

@Bammer25 , this is all well and good, but I still question what it is that you are actually stamping. For example, what code provisions are you checking? What information is being conveyed by the drawings that you are stamping? I can stamp a blank napkin, but it is meaningless. Or someone can draw a circle on a napkin and then I can stamp it. What does my stamp mean? Does it mean that I watched them draw the circle? Does it mean that I certify that the circle is a perfect circle with a ratio of circumference to diameter equal to pi? What? The answers to these questions about what and why you are stamping have impacts on whether or not you are following the rules and laws.

 

[Ron247]

I would never stamp a set of plans made by someone else if they were not on board themselves. Sounds like trouble.

 

[LOTE]

I am not in the building industry, but I get where you are coming from. From what I hear, the AHJ is requiring an endless amount of paperwork that would cost your client half the cost of building the dang structure if they hired each of the specialties that would normally be required on a large commercial project like the AHJ is requesting for their small cabin with a couple sets of bunk beds.

What I do both to cover myself and to make clear to all parties involved:

1. Have a clear agreement/contract that clearly spells out what is included in your scope of work and, more importantly, what is not. No project is too small to not need a signed agreement/contract (and most insurances require it).
2. Specifically state in all of your deliverables what your design/review/seal is for, and what it is not. If all you are doing is reviewing a set of drawings brought to you by the contractor to ensure they meet IBC requirements for egress (this is not my line of work, so someone else may have a better example), it is probably best to put that in a sealed cover letter with the contractor drawings as attachments for reference only.
3. Don't put your seal on their drawings without clearly stating what your design is covering on that sheet and that you are not taking responsibility for anything else on that sheet. I don't believe the board requires that the polylines that make up a drawing were created by your mouse movements or someone's mouse movements that directly works for you, but rather that at the end of the day it is your design and you are taking responsibility for it.
4. My company information goes on everything with contact information for my company. The only place you will see my name is on my seal, in my email signature, and followed by "signing on behalf of ABC, LLC" or something along those lines. All my letters use language like "it is the stance of ABC, LLC...".

 

[gte447f]

From what I hear, the AHJ is requiring an endless amount of paperwork that would cost your client half the cost of building the dang structure if they hired each of the specialties that would normally be required on a large commercial project like the AHJ is requesting for their small cabin with a couple sets of bunk beds.

@LOTE , I agree with most of what you said except the above. Rather than a small cabin with a couple of bunk beds, these vacations homes can easily be very large (by residential standards) $1M+ properties that accommodate sleeping arrangements for 12-20 occupants. They often contain elements or materials that exceed the prescriptive limitations of the IRC and are often located on difficult, steep sites. Some of them really are more like a commercial building. They would actually benefit from design by real professionals rather than paying for a set of plans created by an unlicensed drafter, but real professional architects charge several tens of thousands of dollars to design $1M+ homes instead of just a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, and proper structural engineering of these homes should typically cost several times what the online plans cost.

ETA: This is why the rubber stamping originally posited by the OP is so egregious. It facilitates a general industry of design and construction of sometimes fairly significant structures by unqualified individuals and entities, by giving them the false legitimacy of a stamp for a quick, cheap dollar.

 

[JAE]

I know a lot of you think it’s fun to jump on the OP and what not.

I’m just trying to respond to your questions with facts as I see them. Not having fun.

 

[JAE]

ETA: This is why the rubber stamping originally posited by the OP is so egregious. It facilitates a general industry of design and construction of sometimes fairly significant structures by unqualified individuals and entities, by giving them the false legitimacy of a stamp for a quick, cheap dollar.

Yes.

This is the bottom line of this whole discussion.

Over the years I’ve worked as an engineer (+40) I’ve always been very disheartened when I see attempts by building owners to circumvent the requirements to have professionals designed their buildings and ask an engineer to stamp their drawings so they don’t have to invest in a proper design. Some owners get away with it and the buildings are just fine either by luck or by having a competent contractor build it. But other times there’s definitely a public safety issue.

I don’t enjoy seeing situations like this in our industry and, as I just posted above, don’t have fun pointing out the issue

 

[Ron247]

I am reviewing it. They are not structural plans. I am reviewing against IBC/IRC. It is required and they clearly state it can be done by an architect or engineer.

I think you need to confirm "What does your stamp imply" for the drawings submitted. First, if there is no structural information, you are reviewing for "part" of IRC, not all of IRC. IRC has framing member sizes. Is your stamp implying it meets all of IRC, that includes mechanical, egress, structural, foundations etc.?

They require a stamp because they want a responsible party to supervise and seal the design, not say "I officially okay nothing". I am not a lawyer, but I know many, and they thrive by making you sound REALLY IRRESPONSIBLE to a jury when something happens. My favorite was "a minor child fell through the rotted porch floor you failed to find". I was envisioning a child with pigtails and braces. When I met the minor child, he was 15 and on a high school football scholarship to a private school and looked like Refrigerator Perry. But he was a "Minor child".

So, here are 2 for you to consider how you would answer:
1) You did not contact the person who designed and drew these drawings to confirm any details or specifics of their design? Do you consider that to be "Due Diligence" and "Due Care". I mean, the drawings do not even say what type of wood to use for structural framing. Of course, they will not ask you that until after they have had you admit how important structural framing is to safety.
2) If you are stamping essentially no structural information, are you not participating in an effort to deceive the local building officials? Again, only after having you admit that the purpose of city inspection, oversight and jurisdiction is to ensure public safety?

I promise you, they will have no less than 20 more similar but on other topics.

 

[jerseyshore]

An architect produces a full set. It does not have structural. But it will have electrical pages. How do they get around that? They are not an electrical engineer any more than I am. I realize they are bland and cookie cutter.

I am thinking I can tell clients I can only sign off for the structural package that I develop, but that leaves them with a half or quarter set of drawings.

The practice of architecture includes things like structural, electrical, etc. but it doesn't work in reverse. The practice of structural engineering does not include much of the others however.

And if an architect designs an electrical or structural system that they are not qualified for (pretty rare on a SF house) they could definitely be practicing outside of their area of expertise and hit with a board notice.

 

[jerseyshore]

Also, here is a quick clip of the TN rules:

0120-02-.03 SERVICE IN AREAS OF COMPETENCE.
(1) The registrant shall perform services only in areas of the registrant’s competence. The registrant shall undertake to perform professional assignments only when qualified by
education or experience in the specific technical field involved.
(2) The registrant may accept an assignment requiring education or experience outside of the registrant’s own field of competence, but only to the extent that such services are restricted to those phases of the project in which the registrant is qualified. All other phases of such project shall be performed by qualified associates, consultants or employees.
(3) The registrant shall not affix the registrant’s signature and/or seal to any plan or document dealing with subject matter in which the registrant lacks competence acquired through education or experience, nor to any plan or document not prepared by the registrant or under the registrant’s responsibility.
(4) In the event a question as to the competence of a registrant to perform a professional assignment in a specific technical field arises and cannot be otherwise resolved to the satisfaction of the Board of Examiners for Architects and Engineers, the Board, upon request
of the registrant or by its own volition, may require the registrant to submit to whatever examination it deems appropriate.