Legal Thoughts on Stamping Plans 1

[Bammer25]

I get asked all the time to stamp plans. Normally they are internet plans or plans some draftsman has come up with with very little structural information. I do it and people get their permit, I get paid, everything is great.

I fully realize I should seek out a lawyer and not some internet forum, but do you guys know the ins and outs of this as far as legal issues? I am stamping it saying I concur with the information, not claiming the work as my own. I never put my company logo on the drawings.

What do you think? I am sure this has been discussed.

 

[RWW0002]

Outside of the engineering practice rules/lasw/ethics, there are likely some copyright issues with stamping someone else's work (if done without their consent/knowledge)..

What sort of jurisdictions require this sort of thing to be stamped? The IRC would not generally require a stamp for this stuff.

I am not aware of a reason or requirement to stamp house plans in TN.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I don't think it's all that uncommon to stamp another engineers plans / calculations.
a) This happens EVERY time you have a junior engineer doing work for you. It's just that the stamping engineering is taking "responsible charge" for calculations and plans. Presumably because they have been prepared under his / her direct supervision.

b) It also happens in larger companies where one office does the work, but doesn't have an engineer licensed in that state to stamp it. Therefore, an engineer from another office will stamp it. I have been the engineer doing (or supervising) the work who could not stamp the project in another state. To this day, I have no idea which engineer from our company stamped the drawings and calcs for this project. I always felt a little uncomfortable with that. I definitely treated it as if I had "responsible charge" and made sure calcs and drawings were good.... FWIW, the ONLY reason why we did it that way is because the client didn't want to wait the few months it would have taken for me to get licensed in the other state.

 

[Brad805]

Legal or not, do you feel it is a good business practice? Client selection is the best way to protect you from problems down the road, and here you seem to know little about who you are working for. I assume the fees are low, so one problem could eat up any profits you made. No thank you.

 

[IRstuff]

Some people would say that having insurance does make you more of a target for lawsuits for your busines

That seems crazy; having no insurance means that any suit loss will endanger your personal properties. I suppose you could try having no properties in your name, but there's risk there as well.

 

[jerseyshore]

After re-reading this thread, it feels like OP means that some of the drafting is done ahead of time, but it's basic. Not that they aren't doing the structural design and rubber stamping what someone else did (I think?).

So it comes down to OP receives plans before they are retained, they add structural info, and then S&S the sheets.

vs

OP gets hired and subs out the drafting themselves, and then adds structural info, sign & seals, etc.

 

[phamENG]

And that's why I said limits liability personally. I don't think there's anyway to have no personal liability, but if you operate as an LLC you at least have some protection and ability to get insurance. Some people would say that having insurance does make you more of a target for lawsuits for your business, but I'll take that chance over having nothing.

For sure. There's generally a misconception that an LLC shields your personal assets from everything. Just wanted to make it clear that, while that might be true for the baker and candlestick maker, the case is altered for licensed professionals like us. More for posterity than to try to correct you.

Some new information has come out...and yeah, this is just rubber stamping and not cool regardless of perceived legality. For better or for worse, in the residential world in a lot of places an engineers stamp means code compliant. If I put my stamp on a napkin, there are a few jurisdictions in my area that would approve the permit without looking to see if that's a drawing or just whatever I wiped off my mouth after lunch. So putting your seal on these "simple, water downed house plans" is essentially telling a "plan reviewer" that they don't need to look at, everything is good to go. If it's not an engineering plan with a little architecture, then it's not incidental architecture and you're probably violating board rules for stamping outside of your area of expertise.

I don't think it's all that uncommon to stamp another engineers plans / calculations.

Josh - your examples are good, but I don't think they're at all applicable to this discussion. Both of them involve employees or colleagues "under the same roof" where there's at least a reasonable expectation of collaboration, direction, and adequate exertion of control by the engineer in responsible charge. OP's case is downloading a file from the internet, looking over it for a few minutes, stamping it, and sending it with an invoice. VERY different.

 

[jerseyshore]

That seems crazy; having no insurance means that any suit loss will endanger your personal properties. I suppose you could try having no properties in your name, but there's risk there as well.

I guess it's not totally crazy if you're worried about the jobs where someone sues every single entity involved just because they have insurance and know a settlement is more likely than going thru the whole suit.

But a friendly engineer that I know got dragged into one of these lawsuits and didn't have insurance, and the insurance company suing them didn't care. They had to payout the whole thing out of pocket and it was a hefty sum.

 

[JAE]

I love the summary given by gte447f above and agree with all of it.

Since the OP referred to Tennessee - here's a quote from that state's website:
May a Tennessee registrant affix his seal and signature to plans and specifications prepared by an out-of-state design professional for submittal in Tennessee?
No. A Tennessee registrant may only apply his professional seal, signature, and date of signature to those plans and specifications that were prepared by him or under his responsible charge.
Also the state Engineering laws don't require residential (one and two family dwellings) to be stamped.

Here's the TN Board rules on
0120-02-.07 MISCONDUCT.
The registrant shall not furnish limited services in such a manner as to enable unregistered persons to evade:
(a) Federal, State and Local building laws and regulations, including building permit
requirements; or
(b) Registration requirements of T.C.A. Title 62, chapter 2.

AND
The registrant may not take over, review, revise, or sign or seal drawings or revisions thereof
when such plans are begun by persons not properly registered and qualified; or do any other
act to enable either such persons or the project owners, directly or indirectly, to evade the
registration requirements of T.C.A. Title 62, Chapter 2.

So by taking a floor plan with little or no structural information on it you are:
1. Stamping a plan that you had no direct supervision creating.
2. Stamping a plan that's not structural but primarily architectural - thus you are taking responsibility for a discipline you aren't well versed in.
3. Violating the above copied rules of the board.

 

[Rabbit12]

I love the summary given by gte447f above and agree with all of it.

Since the OP referred to Tennessee - here's a quote from that state's website:
May a Tennessee registrant affix his seal and signature to plans and specifications prepared by an out-of-state design professional for submittal in Tennessee?
No. A Tennessee registrant may only apply his professional seal, signature, and date of signature to those plans and specifications that were prepared by him or under his responsible charge.
Also the state Engineering laws don't require residential (one and two family dwellings) to be stamped.

Here's the TN Board rules on
0120-02-.07 MISCONDUCT.
The registrant shall not furnish limited services in such a manner as to enable unregistered persons to evade:
(a) Federal, State and Local building laws and regulations, including building permit
requirements; or
(b) Registration requirements of T.C.A. Title 62, chapter 2.

AND
The registrant may not take over, review, revise, or sign or seal drawings or revisions thereof
when such plans are begun by persons not properly registered and qualified; or do any other
act to enable either such persons or the project owners, directly or indirectly, to evade the
registration requirements of T.C.A. Title 62, Chapter 2.

So by taking a floor plan with little or no structural information on it you are:
1. Stamping a plan that you had no direct supervision creating.
2. Stamping a plan that's not structural but primarily architectural - thus you are taking responsibility for a discipline you aren't well versed in.
3. Violating the above copied rules of the board.

This is a good summary. Unless there is information not being presented this is pretty much what I was envisioning.

Doing what the OP is suggesting cheapens our profession and takes potential opportunity away from engineers that are following the rules.

 

[XR250]

That seems crazy; having no insurance means that any suit loss will endanger your personal properties. I suppose you could try having no properties in your name, but there's risk there as well.

My lawyer told me if I keep everything held jointly between me and my (now ex) wife, they can't take anything - as long as she is not part of the company. I suppose they could try garnishing wages etc.

 

[LittleInch]

Bammer 25: I do it and people get their permit, I get paid, everything is great.

My phrase on this is that " everything is alright whilst it's all right" But when it's not all right that when the trouble really starts.

It's basically risk. The chances of it going wrong are probably 1:100 or maybe 200. Or maybe 1000.

The consequence might be tolerable or could take you down, imperil your house and livelihood and if there's anything Insurance companies are good at it's limiting their liability to pay if you've even stamped it in the wrong colour... Never mind not actually doing or supervising the work itself.

Ignoring the ethical issue its basically your call as to your perceived risk level. But it definitely looks like you're running with wolves here.

 

[Bammer25]

What sort of jurisdictions require this sort of thing to be stamped? The IRC would not generally require a stamp for this stuff.

Based on the occupancy and if it’s an overnight rental, square footage, etc.

 

[Bammer25]

These two seem incongruent. I assume that when you stamp the latter, there is an implicit concurrence with the structural capability of the house to support the room and window sizes, i.e. shear walls are still functional, etc.

Yes that is true. But I was making sure the other poster knew I was not literally taking a structural design/calcs and stamping them.

 

[Bammer25]

Outside of the engineering practice rules/lasw/ethics, there are likely some copyright issues with stamping someone else's work (if done without their consent/knowledge)..



I am not aware of a reason or requirement to stamp house plans in TN.

It is 100 percent required if occupant load is over 12 or if it’s an overnight rental and many counties require it for 5,000 sq ft or above.

 

[jhnblgr]

Yes that is true. But I was making sure the other poster knew I was not literally taking a structural design/calcs and stamping them.

Then what are you stamping?

 

[Bammer25]

Then what are you stamping?

Generic house plans with no member sizes

 

[SWComposites]

Generic house plans with no member sizes

how can you stamp something that a) you have done no engineering work on, b) you have no info as to whether it meets any code ??

 

[Bammer25]

how can you stamp something that a) you have done no engineering work on, b) you have no info as to whether it meets any code ??

I am reviewing it. They are not structural plans. I am reviewing against IBC/IRC. It is required and they clearly state it can be done by an architect or engineer.

I am not 100 percent clear on the legalities. And I admit I need to brush up on them. That is part of the reason I am here. I don’t necessarily call it rubber stamping. I am reviewing them, suggesting changes if necessary, and stamping them. Maybe I need to have them reproduced on my own company border? Maybe I need to stop altogether since it’s gray area.

 

[gte447f]

These two seem incongruent. I assume that when you stamp the latter, there is an implicit concurrence with the structural capability of the house to support the room and window sizes, i.e. shear walls are still functional, etc.

IRstuff, there is no "implicit concurrence with the structural capability of the house" implied by stamping floor plans that do not contain or convey any structural information. The stamp applies to the drawing and the information contained in the drawing and nothing more. The stamp means that the drawing was prepared by a licensed professional. When an architect stamps a floor plan, they are not implying anything about the structural components of the building. The same goes for an engineer. When an electrical engineer stamps a wiring diagram (or whatever those sparkies are responsible for) there is no "implicit concurrence" that the building structure is adequate or that the building has adequate egress.

My statements above do not absolve the OP for rubber stamping floor plans prepared by unlicensed parties not under his responsible charge. In fact, maybe as a mitigating factor, it makes it worse that he is a structural PE stamping drawings that do not contain any structural info, because many, including clients/owners/jurisdictions might assume as you have that his stamp implies the structure is sound, when in fact (based on the facts the OP has presented) his stamp does not mean anything at all about the adequacy of the structural components of the building.

 

[gte447f]

I am reviewing it. They are not structural plans. I am reviewing against IBC/IRC. It is required and they clearly state it can be done by an architect or engineer.

I am not 100 percent clear on the legalities. And I admit I need to brush up on them. That is part of the reason I am here. I don’t necessarily call it rubber stamping. I am reviewing them, suggesting changes if necessary, and stamping them. Maybe I need to have them reproduced on my own company border? Maybe I need to stop altogether since it’s gray area.

@Bammer25 , kudos to you for asking questions and continuing to participate in this discussion. I do not want to "gang up" on you. I am curious about your circumstance though. Mainly, what exactly you are reviewing and why. You say that these are generic house plans, but you also mention the IBC (not just IRC) and occupant loads over 12. I am not an architect, but to my knowledge the IRC does not address occupant load in one and two family dwellings. I gather that these are probably vacation homes located in the smoky mountains region of east Tennessee. You mention that they are rentals. I know that vacation rentals often advertise sleeping capacities above 12, but those are usually just made up numbers with no codified basis. Are these buildings issued a residential or commercial building permit? I can only assume residential, otherwise it would seem that a commercial permit under the IBC would require much more than some generic stamped plans. So what is triggering these "reviews"? How does the AHJ even know these will be rentals? Who is calculating the occupancy load that is supposedly triggering the requirement for these "reviews", and where is this requirement even coming from? When you stamp these drawings, what exactly are you certifying, what information? I have certainly never seen a generic house plan that includes occupant load calculations.