Legal Thoughts on Stamping Plans 1

[Bammer25]

I get asked all the time to stamp plans. Normally they are internet plans or plans some draftsman has come up with with very little structural information. I do it and people get their permit, I get paid, everything is great.

I fully realize I should seek out a lawyer and not some internet forum, but do you guys know the ins and outs of this as far as legal issues? I am stamping it saying I concur with the information, not claiming the work as my own. I never put my company logo on the drawings.

What do you think? I am sure this has been discussed.

 

[jerseyshore]

I get asked all the time to stamp plans. Normally they are internet plans or plans some draftsman has come up with with very little structural information. I do it and people get their permit, I get paid, everything is great.

I fully realize I should seek out a lawyer and not some internet forum, but do you guys know the ins and outs of this as far as legal issues? I am stamping it saying I concur with the information, not claiming the work as my own. I never put my company logo on the drawings.

What do you think? I am sure this has been discussed.

Are you saying you are stamping them without your company logo so you take on the liability as an individual?

 

[RWW0002]

This (or similar topics) have been discussed on here many times. Rules vary from state to state and opinions/interpretations of state rules varies among forum participants. You might find some good information if you use the forum search tools, but ultimately you should read and understand the rules and laws of the state in which you are licensed. Most are available through the state licensing board. Most states have very explicit rules about what you can seal.

 

[jhnblgr]

Sounds like text book rubber stamping. You stamp it, you own it.

 

[EZBuilding]

I am stamping it saying I concur with the information, not claiming the work as my own.

This may vary from state to state, but when you sign and seal you are saying that this works was prepared under your supervision. If there is an engineering error, that would be your engineering error. There may be some more wiggle room in civil liabilities for omissions depending on your contract terms, but at the bare minimum you are an involved party.

 

[XR250]

You also may be on the hook for architectural things like egress, insulation, venting etc. I never stamp anyone elses plans. I import the outlines into my CAD system and create my own framing plans.

 

[Rabbit12]

This sounds like it is likely illegal in some states and possibly unethical.

Can you give us an example of something you do this on? Are you stamping home plans or something much more minor?

 

[Rabbit12]

Are you saying you are stamping them without your company logo so you take on the liability as an individual?

In reality isn't our liability individual? Certainly most of us are covered by an employers' or personal professional liability insurance but at the end of the day if things really turned south we could be sued personally as well correct?

 

[jerseyshore]

In reality isn't our liability individual? Certainly most of us are covered by an employers' or personal professional liability insurance but at the end of the day if things really turned south we could be sued personally as well correct?

Individual from a professional standpoint, yes, but I was referring to personally.

That's the reason why even if you are a sole proprietor you should operate as an LLC. That limits your liability personally. I know people who have gotten sued who don't operate as an LLC and they are personally on the hook for the total amount. No one should be risking their house for rubbing stamping an internet set of plans for $1,200.

 

[jhnblgr]

You are personally liable for all engineering documents you seal regardless of business entity

 

[XR250]

Individual from a professional standpoint, yes, but I was referring to personally.

That's the reason why even if you are a sole proprietor you should operate as an LLC. That limits your liability personally. I know people who have gotten sued who don't operate as an LLC and they are personally on the hook for the total amount. No one should be risking their house for rubbing stamping an internet set of plans for $1,200.

My lawyer says the LLC won't mean shit if you are the only employee. That being said, I am one - mainly for the tax benefits.

 

[phamENG]

That's the reason why even if you are a sole proprietor you should operate as an LLC.

Yes, but also no. All of this, of course, varies by state, but in general an LLC will only protect you from business liabilities. It will not protect you from professional malpractice and E&O claims. So if the lawsuit is filed against JerseyShore Structural Engineering, LLC AND Jersey Shore, PE (which they can do because you sealed the drawing and, therefore, they can claim professional malpractice against you), then the LLC doesn't protect you from the portion they want from you. As long as the business is on the hook to indemnify you personally, then it should work out, but it's a dicey situation and good to go through it in detail with a lawyer.

As for the original question - it's not necessarily "textbook rubber stamping" in the unethical sense. If @Bammer25 is fully reviewing the contents of the drawings and personally verifies everything on those drawings and agrees with them to the point that, if they prepared them personally, they would look essentially identical, then I don't think there's anything unethical. Anything short of that, and yes - you're on ethically shaky ground at best. Legally, on the other hand - well, all I can say is don't do this in Virginia, because that's 100% a violation of state regs.

 

[Bammer25]

Sorry guys, I was not clear. I am a single member LLC. I am not saying I would not have liability. I am fine with all the liability.

I am just curious how it works as far as someone else saying "that is my work, he cant stamp that," etc...Depending on occupancy and location/critical slope, etc, around here the plans sometimes need an engineer or architect stamp. So I supply that. It has never hurt me, but I don't want to get in trouble for it one day.

 

[Bammer25]

I will check Tennessee laws. I know I need to be more prepared.

 

[gte447f]

Normally they are internet plans or plans some draftsman has come up with with very little structural information.

I am stamping it saying I concur with the information

Your statements above suggest that you aren't doing much of anything. This seems to be text book rubber stamping. Every engineering board I have any knowledge of would probably not allow this practice.

not claiming the work as my own

To the contrary, in fact you are indeed basically claiming the work as your own. That is generally what is meant and understood by affixing your stamp to a set of drawings or any other engineering document.

I never put my company logo on the drawings.

Why not? What do you think you are accomplishing by not affixing your company logo to the drawings. If you think you are lessoning your exposure to liability, you might be accomplishing the opposite, assuming your company has professional liability insurance. Although, in the event of a claim against you, you might be screwed either way. I would be curious to know how an professional liability insurance carrier would handle a rubber stamping situation like this, and specifically whether there would be any coverage for this practice.

What do you think? I am sure this has been discussed.

You are right that it has been discussed many times. The answers to your questions are simple and straight forward. I am shocked that these basic questions get asked by practicing, licensed engineers. EIT's, sure, they should be asking these questions. They should add questions like these to the PE licensing exam as a pass/fail condition of licensure.

 

[Rabbit12]

Sorry guys, I was not clear. I am a single member LLC. I am not saying I would not have liability. I am fine with all the liability.

I am just curious how it works as far as someone else saying "that is my work, he cant stamp that," etc...Depending on occupancy and location/critical slope, etc, around here the plans sometimes need an engineer or architect stamp. So I supply that. It has never hurt me, but I don't want to get in trouble for it one day.

Are you doing a full review of the structural calculations for the things you are stamping? Can you provide some examples of what you are being asked to stamp?

 

[Bammer25]

Are you doing a full review of the structural calculations for the things you are stamping? Can you provide some examples of what you are being asked to stamp?

I have never stamped another structural engineer's plans or calculations. These are generic/watered down house plans showing room sizes, windows, etc.

 

[gte447f]

These are generic/watered down house plans showing room sizes, windows, etc.

What sort of jurisdictions require this sort of thing to be stamped? The IRC would not generally require a stamp for this stuff.

 

[IRstuff]

I have never stamped another structural engineer's plans or calculations. These are generic/watered down house plans showing room sizes, windows, etc.

These two seem incongruent. I assume that when you stamp the latter, there is an implicit concurrence with the structural capability of the house to support the room and window sizes, i.e. shear walls are still functional, etc.

 

[jerseyshore]

Yes, but also no. All of this, of course, varies by state, but in general an LLC will only protect you from business liabilities. It will not protect you from professional malpractice and E&O claims. So if the lawsuit is filed against JerseyShore Structural Engineering, LLC AND Jersey Shore, PE (which they can do because you sealed the drawing and, therefore, they can claim professional malpractice against you), then the LLC doesn't protect you from the portion they want from you. As long as the business is on the hook to indemnify you personally, then it should work out, but it's a dicey situation and good to go through it in detail with a lawyer.

As for the original question - it's not necessarily "textbook rubber stamping" in the unethical sense. If @Bammer25 is fully reviewing the contents of the drawings and personally verifies everything on those drawings and agrees with them to the point that, if they prepared them personally, they would look essentially identical, then I don't think there's anything unethical. Anything short of that, and yes - you're on ethically shaky ground at best. Legally, on the other hand - well, all I can say is don't do this in Virginia, because that's 100% a violation of state regs.

Great points as always.

And that's why I said limits liability personally. I don't think there's anyway to have no personal liability, but if you operate as an LLC you at least have some protection and ability to get insurance. Some people would say that having insurance does make you more of a target for lawsuits for your business, but I'll take that chance over having nothing.