Lack of traffic in this forum...why? 2

[hydromech]

Hello all...

Would anyone like to try to explain why this forum sees so few questions compared to some of the other forums on the site?

Lack of knowledge about the site..?

Nobody wants to know about hydraulics..?

Nobody has any hydraulic faults..?

I'm think of making a ghost name and posting some strange questions about fluid power...just to stir things up a bit.

I really enjoy helping people out or getting people deeper into trouble as is sometimes the case...!

Hydromech

 

[MadMango]

There are ~2300 members in this Group, that's not bad. I think many are probably like me, just visitors that read more than post.

Also, it may be the Group title needs a bit of work. While I deal with hydraulics on a daily basis, and have designed a few circuits and manifolds, I'd hardly consider myself a "fluid power professional".

I suggest not creating a 2nd identity here, as the site admins frown upon that sort of thing. I'd just post topics for discussion. Not every post needs to be a question.

[green]"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."[/green]

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[hydromech]

The 2nd Id idea was tongue in cheek...

Now that you mention it, the Forum title doesn't exactly invite the right questions...

I have noticed that many engineering questions that are Googled throw up eng-tip.com as a place to start.

If I was looking for hydraulic help...I would type hydraulic help in the search engine... There's a good name for a forum Hydraulic Help...

 

[budt]

Hydromech, have'nt you noticed the same situation on the other Fluid Power Forums. Usually the same types of questions about Log Splitters or what is this component or My tractor hydraulics are sluggish, under power, etc.

It is the best you can expect from a discipline that has very few trained persons and no recognized title in industry. Even most of the trained persons are not from Colleges like the Electrical Engineer or Electrical Maintenance persons.

Take a look at the Poll Question "What's the primary way that you learned about fluid power?" at

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/.

It is at the bottom left of the home page.

Notice over twice as many say there knowledge camefrom other than college.

I started selling cylinders in 1966 and quickly learned most sales came from designing circuits for people with a lot more titles than I had but little or oknowledge of Fluid Power systems.

I don't think it is the title that keeps people from posting, in my opinion it is the lack of knowledge about Fluid Power and lack of working with it.

Also, people have learned to live with Hydraulic circuits that run hot, even with a heat exchanger, that shake rattle and roll each cycle and require actuator and flow line replacement 2-3 times a year due to shock. And, many hydraulic circuits have a "Drip Pan" under them to keep the leaks from going int the walkway and causing an accident. Everyone knows all hydraulic circuits leak. The maintenance mechanics at a company I put on some Fluid Power training classes joked that they used Red Rags for high pressure leaks and Blue Rags for low pressure leaks.

As long as industry depends on the Fluid Power Distributor or Fluid Power Manufacturer to call the shots there will be very few changes. At least that is what I have gleaned from 40+ years in the Fluid Power field.

However, I don't think anyone is listening or, Of Course it could be I am All Wet and have not diagnosed the problem correctly.



Bud Trinkel CFPE
HYDRA-PNEU CONSULTING, INC.

http://www.fluidpower1.us

 

[hydromech]

All wet Bud..?

If you haven't found yourself all wet at some stage in this business, well...frankly your under qualified.

By "wet" I mean soaked to the skin with mineral oil...or worse...Skydrol!

12 months ago today I lost my job a Hydraulic Systems Engineer...as much as I try to get away from hydraulics...I can't, I have a passion for it. Does that make me strange?

I have 18 years of hard won, valuable experience of hydraulic systems...from design to builing and commissioning and servicing and fault finding and trouble shooting. Has it done me any good..? No!

As I see it, most people see hydraulics as a necesarry evil. They don't want to use it...they just have to.

I'm a bit cynical...can you tell..?

What do you think the next 10 years will bring for the Global fluid power business?

Hydromech

 

[budt]

Hydromech asked:

"What do you think the next 10 years will bring for the Global fluid power business?"

The same as it has for the last 40 years I have been in it. And that has been going backwards as far as I can tell if you take inflation into account. Not a pretty picture.

Take a look at this poll for Fluid Power outlook and check the "See Poll Results" link. At present it is 50/50 for Great Year and About the Same from the TWO replies. Really a lot of interest since it was asked 1/10/07.

http://forums.hydraulicspneumatics.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5821030121/m/5731070841

I'm not cynical though, just realistic and trying to get some feedback. However, it seems no one is interested.



Bud Trinkel CFPE
HYDRA-PNEU CONSULTING, INC.

http://www.fluidpower1.us

 

[EdDanzer]

Here are some if my thoughts about why people don’t visit this or other hydraulic forums.

1. Few people or companies modify or build new hydraulic equipment because of the risk. I have fixed equipment other companies have built and didn’t work well. The people who purchased the poor execution of applying hydraulics tend to not trust the next guy. Part of this is the costs to modify a bad design and most people want to trust that the manufacture of the machine or attachment knows what they are doing. Many manufactures continue to use a circuit or products because they work ok, not that it is the best design or best component for the job. Many of the fluid power people I have met have difficulties dealing with the actual requirements the customer needs by failure analysis.

2. Anyone can hook up hoses to used or cheep components to build a simple machine. We have built a hydraulic chain saw for over 20 years. People who want to purchase this to cut firewood have a hard time understanding the requirements to make it function correctly, and would rather do it the cheep way than the correct way. Then after much frustration, they call to bitch that the product didn’t work when they did not do all the required installation tasks. It requires about 1 ½ hours of time to sell one of these saws average. The last guy called to complain about the price of what he received, until is explained that he had spent over 2 hours with me on the phone to understand what had to be done to make it work, and if he had done what he planned the cost would have been far greater.

3. Fluid power companies prefer to not take any risks. When I talked to large manufactures about developing new digital hydraulic components and systems to increase energy efficiency and enter new markets, they believe the current stuff is as good as it can be. My 2nd company (

http://www.dehyds.com)

is developing these digital products. The problem is a lack of funding to speed up development.

 

[budt]

Ed Danzer wrote:

"Fluid power companies prefer to not take any risks. When I talked to large manufactures about developing new digital hydraulic components and systems to increase energy efficiency and enter new markets, they believe the current stuff is as good as it can be. My 2nd company (

http://www.dehyds.com)

is developing these digital products. The problem is a lack of funding to speed up development."

I agree Ed. This is the primary reason I have been pushing for trained Fluid Power Engineers and Maintenance Persons. If there was enough REAL feedback from knowledgeable persons in the field new products would be developed or the manufacturers would go belly-up.

I think feedback from knowledgeable persons is what has driven the Electrical Control and Power field. Manufacturers pay attention to feedback that has some reason to it. Feedback from Fluid Power users is too vague because they know it could be better but can't relate that to a way to accomplish it.

I will probably retire before this situation changes but I will keep jerking chains as long as I can.


Bud Trinkel CFPE
HYDRA-PNEU CONSULTING, INC.

http://www.fluidpower1.us

 

[hydromech]

"Fluid power companies prefer to not take any risks"

Hell that's true..!

To quote an example...I wanted a small Parker PV piston pump with a horse power controller and I wanted to run it on a very light duty with water glycol. The distributor said yes...Parkers sales engineer said yes but his boss said no. They would not give a warranty on it because its operating parameters were outside of those that the pump was tested for.

I ended up using a Yuken pump that actually cost less than half of the Parker pump.

The difference was not with the quality of the pumps, but with the approach to business by the two companies.

Parker - Our pump may work it may not, but we don't have to try, we sell thousands of these to lots of other people...why should we take a risk?

Yuken - We are new around here...we need the business. We think our pump will do the job. Here, take it and let us know what happens. If it breaks we will find out why and make it better.

What I found with Parker is the same with Rexroth Bosch and Eaton(Vickers). If the manual says it will work then you can have it...if it's not in the manual or it's risky you can still have it but with no warranty.

Do any of the big fluid power manufacturers still do any R&D?

The average age of people in the fluid power business in the UK is 55. Most of them have no desire to make it better. Making it work is enough to make some money from it...why risk less profit to make it work better..?

I am 34 and I still want to make it better...what are my chances.

Hydromech

 

[MadMango]

Large companies are not known for making one-off products for customers. Try asking Ford to put a hatchback on a Mustang, it won't happen. If they do, you usually have to pay for up-front work and components. Less known or smaller companies are more likely to support non-traditional requests, and are more willing to partner with customers to get to a working solution so they can get their "foot in the door." This is a trend in all industries, not just fluid power.

The real hurdle that I have encountered, is when you do find that one company that is willing to develop a solution with you, your upper management will resist this. They would rather go with a known (even at double the price) company rather than the unkown.

I tried to redesign our proprietary 1.75 ID cylinders. We have been using the same design for about 25yrs. The internal seals were sourced from Parker. The design is good, but there is room for improvement. I worked with reps from Busak+Shamban, as they are not that well known in the USA. We managed to get new seal designs (less components) for our cylinders, and even managed to change from a ductile iron piston and brass gland nut to both being aluminum.

We did extensive comparative testing of the old and new designs. Leakage was down, service life was up. They were even willing to provide assembled piston and glad nut assemblies for just in time assembly of our products. The up front cost was about a 3% savings, while service and repair costs would have been significantly greater. I presented my efforts in a report, and was told to contact our current vendor to see what they would offer. I did, and their efforts fell well short. The project died because no one in upper management had heard of B+S.

[green]"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."[/green]

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[budt]

Hydromech wrote:

"I am 34 and I still want to make it better...what are my chances."

Slim to none unless you start manufacturing your own brand of components.

Make them better and you will never lack customers.

It's hard to believe how long the Fluid Power industry has stayed "Status-Quo" and End Users keep putting up with it. Then again if you don't know you are being fed a sales pitch because you only have a 1 or 2 week course in Fluid Power from the supplier or manufacturer of the equipment I can see how nothing will change now or as long as End Users don't realize they have a problem.

In our neighboring state it is illegal to sell Alchoholic Beverages except in state licenced Clubs or in most counties bordering states that do sell the product. I used to think it was the good people of the state that kept the law in effect. But would you believe it is the Boot Leggers that keep the law from being repealed.

I think a simlar situation is going on in the Fluid Power world???????


Bud Trinkel CFPE
HYDRA-PNEU CONSULTING, INC.

http://www.fluidpower1.us

 

[zeusfaber]

As a customer, I would welcome substantial improvements in the technologies we're offered. As it is, most of my mob's (albeit limited these days) R&D funding is going on developing ways to eliminate high energy fluid power from our platforms at every opportunity.

The providers of some of the competing technologies are ever so eager to please.

A.

 

[EdDanzer]

MadMango,
Your management has a good reason to not trust B+S. They were running an advertisement of a U-seal FEA at high pressure. After looking at the picture there was no deformation of the seal in the groove. It took two calls and the threat of a false advertising suit for some one to admit the pressure used in the FEA was under 3000 psi and this was not high pressure. Also, if you have working or spike pressures ore 3,000 psi don’t use aluminum in hydraulic cylinders, and if you have working or spike pressures over 5,000 psi only use steel parts if you want best in class performance. One of the most common failures in hydraulic cylinders is at the piston / rod interface. Aluminum and cast iron will yield over the rod and allow the piston to come loose. Seal movement from pressure changes will wear the seal grooves in aluminum parts.

As to building a better product, some OEM’s prefer to sell parts than make a better product. Others believe if it works it must be fine. We started working on a rotary well drilling machine and had to add an auxiliary function. When I plumbed it correctly the system didn’t work. After contacting the OEM, the fan drive had to run over relief to power the auxiliary circuit. They became defensive when I told them how stupid this was, as they had been doing it for over 20 years. Six month later at a trade show they were touting the correct circuit would save 15 gallons of fuel per day.

 

[PNachtwey]

I think the major points have been covered. I want to second or third the following points.

1. Big companies don't take risks until force to.

2. People would rather search the internet where they can see pictures and diagrams and download .pdfs and other data.

I participate on another site that has far superior capabilities. One can post pictures, movies and attach files.

Since there are people tooting their whistle
ftp://ftp.deltacompsys.com/public/movies/CANFOR%20FORT%20ST.%20JOHN_0002.wmv
This shows hydraulic cylinders following camming profiles or splines that are executed as a function of the feed chain position. Logs are cut straight anymore.

I think movies and pictures are very good at getting points across. I have a sink that needs some work. I am going to take a picture and good to Home Depot with the pictures to show exactly what I need.

 

[hydromech]

Next time anyone asks me "What's the best way to learn mechanics"...I will tell them to spend a week in that factory.

Anyone that wants to know about hydraulics...I would recommend 1 year. Afterall we all know that fluid power systems are far more complex than mechanical ones..;-)

 

[PNachtwey]

"Next time anyone asks me "What's the best way to learn mechanics"...I will tell them to spend a week in that factory.
"
Actually you would want to part of the design team for the OEM. A week wouldn't cover what you need to but one would learn a lot.

"Anyone that wants to know about hydraulics...I would recommend 1 year. Afterall we all know that fluid power systems are far more complex than mechanical ones..winky smile"

I gave a 1 hour presentation to a mechatronics class at Washing State University. I played that video to get the students attention. The electric motor turn the chipper heads but the fine control is all done with hydraulics.

I know there are universities and colleges that have hydraulic courses. MSOE, Purdue, Spokane Community College. UBC in British Columbia. There seems to more interest on the west coast because of the lumber industry. Spokane Community College has a very nice lab.

I have more movies. GLK has some too. I think we need a way of getting peoples attention and provide some example of what can be done. Perhaps we need a hydraulic group on youtube.com we advertise hydraulic control by posting videos of our best projects. Maybe IFPS can build a DVD of submitted videos and pictures that we can pick up at trade shows and take home to show what can be done.

Back on topic. How does someone post pictures on these forums? If I search the web will the hydraulic forum be one of the top 10 links? These are the problems that must be overcome.

If I do a search for "hydraulic motion control" I don't see any forums listed in the first couple of pages. This is a big problem because the forums can't compete with the commercial web sites.

 

[ScottyUK]

Posting images: faq559-1100


----------------------------------

Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

 

[hydromech]

Also tinypic.com

Just upload the image or video and paste the link into the thread.

 

[doubletrouble]

I am very new to this web site. Has anyone ever researched the automotive Lowrider Hydraulics field?

There is alot to improve on for instance, It seems that the old gear drive pump head are a little out of date. I was wondering how many other forms of pumps are out there(like a worm drive?) the motors they use now are only 12 volt but they run as much as 120 volts to them to create more speed/pressure.

The price on the pump heads is about $100 and about $80 for the motors. The more you burn up the more you buy. I would love to take a course on fluid power.

 

[zdas04]

Doubletrouble,
It is not nice to tag a new question onto an existing thread. Why don't you ask your question in a new thread?

David