House Review - Site Visit without report?

[Ben29]

Would you do a cursory review of a house without providing a report? I was contacted by a man who just wants a SE to walk a house with him that he is interested in purchasing. He doesn't want to pay for a report. Quite frankly I don't want to do a report because they are so time consuming. But I am interested in walking the house to point out structural issues that I see.

It all comes down to liability, I know. So if you feel a report is absolutely required, how can you write a report in such a way that it takes less than an hour and also has CYA verbiage built in?

 

[ANE91]

It is hard for me to believe any judge would side with the customer on this. It is a he said - she said situation. Especially since the customer chose not to get a written report.

It very much depends on the state, whether a jury is involved, etc.

 

[ANE91]

Excellent point, (even better, cursory review) it is funny how simple words can get you in trouble with a crafty lawyer. One of the biggest problems with defending your methodology and reporting skills in a deposition is when you get questions you weren't expecting and start your response with "Well, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh".

I see here you say it was "most likely not an issue", so you admit there was a reasonable chance it was an issue. Well, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

They have degrees in arguing. It’s their job to find something with which to critique you. You’re winning if they’re attacking your credentials, because it means that they found nothing else worth digging into.

 

[jerseyshore]

We do site visits only from time to time for people who don't want a formal letter. Sometimes we'll do short emails.

Single family residential is high liability no matter what we do. There's a reason why insurance costs are so damn high even for small outfits. Performing a site visit and not writing a letter barely changes that IMO. Most times I will still take photos so that I can go back and say "these are the things I looked at".

Only once did I have someone come back and say "I'm selling my house, remember 2 years ago when you said my 30 ft tall 4-tier railroad tie retaining wall is fine, can you write a report?". Yeah no.

 

[XR250]

We do site visits only from time to time for people who don't want a formal letter. Sometimes we'll do short emails.

Single family residential is high liability no matter what we do. There's a reason why insurance costs are so damn high even for small outfits. Performing a site visit and not writing a letter barely changes that IMO. Most times I will still take photos so that I can go back and say "these are the things I looked at".

Only once did I have someone come back and say "I'm selling my house, remember 2 years ago when you said my 30 ft tall 4-tier railroad tie retaining wall is fine, can you write a report?". Yeah no.

Basically same here. I have started showing my liability limitation on the invoice (fees collected). That way when they pay the bill, they have agreed to it.

 

[jerseyshore]

Basically same here. I have started showing my liability limitation on the invoice (fees collected). That way when they pay the bill, they have agreed to it.

Not a bad idea. Another local engineer that mostly does residential work has a nice little paragraph at the end of all of his reports that that summarizes what is and is not included in the evaluation, report, etc. It's something I'd like to start incorporating into our reports or even invoices is decent idea too.

 

[XR250]

This is what is at the bottom of my "non-verbal" consultation reports...

The conclusions reached in this report are based upon the condition of the structure at the time of the review. No warranty as to the future performance of any item is expressed or implied. No areas of the structure were reviewed other than those discussed in the report. The review was performed in accordance with generally accepted engineering principles and practices and used a standard of care consistent with other local design professionals limited by the scope and budget. No destructive or invasive testing or review of mold and mildew was performed. All opinions are subject to revision based on new or additional information. No responsibility will be taken for conditions that could not be easily seen or are outside the scope of this review. Any use which a third party makes of this report, or any reliance upon, decisions made in response to or in any way influenced by this report are the responsibility of such third party.. This report was billed hourly and has a liability limitation of 10 times fees collected. It represents the best judgment of XXXXX given the information available at the time of writing.

 

[racookpe1978]

I just spent a day on a Negligence & Liability course and they used an example that was similar to this.
The homeowner sued the pants off the engineer and the engineer had nothing in writing he could fall back on to prove his vague recollections.

Terrible idea, I would not recommend it. What you have is a client who wants the world but isn't willing to pay for it. Any decent client would understand that they should expect something in writing. Otherwise I guarantee you are getting in for a world of hurt, especially because residential pre purchase inspections are SO RISKY at the best of times (at least in this part of the world).

Now, a reasonable compromise is that you don't write a full report and just do a long email or a summary letter or something - we have done this several times before. It's just a statement of facts/observations and potential risks. You are careful to avoid definitive conclusions as to what the client should do - that's their job to figure out.

I wouldn't even do this for friends - heck, for my own brother I wrote him a 7 page report when I did a pre purchase inspection. I really think you're opening yourself up to an excessive risk for such little monetary gain.

Also very relevant: If you do no report now, YOU have no realistic way of effectively charging (later) for your time when the report is needed. (Lawsuit, claim, liability, taxes, assessment or rebate or tax changes or loan or total collapse or insurance claim - whatever.) "Oh wait, I can get you a report .. In four days." isn't going to satisfy a enemy lawyer's filing.

 

[ViaParadise]

As a very young and inexperienced engineer I have a question here for those answering this topic that is more of a situation than question. If you do in fact want to make money as an engineer on the side, and occasionally wouldn't mind walking through homes with someone. If not to say, "yes the floor/roof/whatever is likely supported like this so if you wanted/need to change/fix it you may end up needing to do such and such", at least just to tell the homeowner what you may see that is alarming but may be a non-issue upon further inspection. How would you do this? It seems like the answer to this question and similarly OP's is "don't, the client is not your friend and any desire to help should be disuaded by the possibility of being sued by those both too ignorant and arrogant of what an engineer can and can't do". Beyond the money, doing something like this does seem fun as a little side job and also even charitable in being able to give people your opinion in the hopes that it helps them buy a home. But, if the result is just litigation ending in stress, lost time and money, and even licensure issues then it seems ridiculously difficult to even TRY and be a 'good' engineer in this way.

 

[XR250]

Honestly, I have been primarily in the residential space since 1991 and have yet to be sued. Was threatened once with a lawsuit from a customer who was a lawyer but it never came to fruition.

 

[KootK]

it often isn't that much more work to copy-paste it into a proper letter template

I agree with that. Frankly, the main reason that I do email is simply because I lack sophistication with Word. In my current incarnation, the best up-skilling that I could do for myself from an ROI perspective would probably be some kind of Word power user training.

I do some work with a big building envelope engineering firm and sometimes use their report template. Those guys live and die by their ability to kick lout a quality report efficiently. And, man, does their template ever kick ass. Select the root job folder, click a few buttons, select some photos, type in the captions when asked and.... voila... you've got the thing 95% done complete with appendices, legalese and everything else. And very little chance for errors in the footers etc. I waste a lot of time PDF'ing, proofing, and PDF'ing again (I don't have admin help).

Like most reports, it's legit content in the middle third bookended by a bunch of BS front and back but, as we all know, that's pretty much just what you want.

As an aside, work where my product is a report tends to track about 3X as profitable as work where my product is drawings. Sad but true. Sad because I actually enjoy developing drawings. But my "profit weapon" is really the report.

 

[JAE]

As a very young and inexperienced engineer I have a question here for those answering this topic that is more of a situation than question. If you do in fact want to make money as an engineer on the side, and occasionally wouldn't mind walking through homes with someone. If not to say, "yes the floor/roof/whatever is likely supported like this so if you wanted/need to change/fix it you may end up needing to do such and such", at least just to tell the homeowner what you may see that is alarming but may be a non-issue upon further inspection. How would you do this? It seems like the answer to this question and similarly OP's is "don't, the client is not your friend and any desire to help should be disuaded by the possibility of being sued by those both too ignorant and arrogant of what an engineer can and can't do". Beyond the money, doing something like this does seem fun as a little side job and also even charitable in being able to give people your opinion in the hopes that it helps them buy a home. But, if the result is just litigation ending in stress, lost time and money, and even licensure issues then it seems ridiculously difficult to even TRY and be a 'good' engineer in this way.

No good deed goes unpunished.

It's an odd feeling that comes upon you when, after working with a client on a friendly basis (good chums!) you find later that all bets are off and the lawyerly fists come out.

Also - keep in mind that there are two possible outcomes if a client lawyers up at you:
1. Your little fun "side job" may create a situation where your personal possessions, house, bank account, etc. are subject to risk should you lose in court if you don't have professional liability insurance.

or...

2. Your little fun "side job" becomes a lawsuit that your place of employment gets embroiled in since the lawyers, and courts, may assume you were working under the auspices of your engineering employer and they want to go after their prof. liability insurance vs. your measly bank account. (this is the reason most firms I've been associated with forbid any side jobs or moonlighting. )

 

[Greenalleycat]

As a very young and inexperienced engineer I have a question here for those answering this topic that is more of a situation than question. If you do in fact want to make money as an engineer on the side, and occasionally wouldn't mind walking through homes with someone. If not to say, "yes the floor/roof/whatever is likely supported like this so if you wanted/need to change/fix it you may end up needing to do such and such", at least just to tell the homeowner what you may see that is alarming but may be a non-issue upon further inspection. How would you do this? It seems like the answer to this question and similarly OP's is "don't, the client is not your friend and any desire to help should be disuaded by the possibility of being sued by those both too ignorant and arrogant of what an engineer can and can't do". Beyond the money, doing something like this does seem fun as a little side job and also even charitable in being able to give people your opinion in the hopes that it helps them buy a home. But, if the result is just litigation ending in stress, lost time and money, and even licensure issues then it seems ridiculously difficult to even TRY and be a 'good' engineer in this way.

Agreeing with JAE: if you have ANY engineering side hustle, have it very clear where the liability sits, how it's insured, how it's limited, who is the experienced engineer in charge etc. I have an engineering side hustle too but I know the answer to all of those questions so it's ok.

In terms of helping people...I am a sucker and have helped many friends and family buy houses, which is harder than in most areas due to the complex post-earthquake insurance shitshow here. I love it and I love to help people, and worst of all I never get paid for it... My key thing is that anything important goes in writing and I do my best to stick a disclaimer/clarifier at the start. I also make sure I have chats with them in person so that they understand that there is risk to me in helping them, and that they are on the same page as to how much an engineering inspection can/cannot investigate.

A tip I use for doing site visits is to show people the kinds of things that I am looking for. That way you can argue the inspection is 'educational'. Sticking a laser on cladding to see if the bricks are level, taking measurements on floors and benches to see if the house has moved, getting into subfloors or roofs, shining a torch over walls. Show your client and talk them through why it is important. Tell them that you are there to highlight obvious risks, not to tell them whether they should/should not buy it. If you strongly feel that a place is bad, you can use wording like "I would not buy this myself based on what I have seen today" or "If my own son/sister/whoever asked me for my opinion on this house I would be advising them not to buy it". My Dad uses that one a lot when helping family friends' kids with buying houses (happens surprisingly often).

Something to be careful of is that, in my experience, most people don't actually want to hear that they shouldn't buy a house. I have watched people bid huge sums of money on houses that we have flagged risks all over the show. It is very difficult for most people to conceptualise construction risks as the timeframes for the failure are usually far in the future and the cost to remediate is nebulous.

We did have one client pickup from our report that his potential house was a lemon and not buy it though, so there are occasional wins.

 

[Tomfh]

As an aside, work where my product is a report tends to track about 3X as profitable as work where my product is drawings

Yep. I try and focus on reporting if I can. Reporting is easier and more profitable.