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Forum Clutter - Students (and others) posting in this forum 3

human909

Structural
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
2,286
Location
AU
Hi 👋

Maybe it has become worse. Or maybe I'm just getting older. But there seems to be an increasing number of student or very inadequately trained engineers posting in this forum. Occasionally such posts can tangent to useful discussion but most of the time it is just clutter. Kootk posted quite strongly on this topic recently in one of the many threads posted by a student or severely inadequately trained engineer.

IMO the solutions is in our hands. Either;
  • REPORT the thread and rely on admin to remove it and/or;
  • have a strong direct reply and a strong request that nobody else replies so the thread dies a natural death or;
  • do nothing as a fix isn't needed.
At present many of these threads are kept alive but questions and answers that got in circles or by people who add to the replies telling them to post elsewhere. (I perpetuated this today.) I believe content could be improved if we all made a better effort to ignore such threads. The "Truss" thread I initially ignored as I wanted to let it die, then after multiple replies from others I perpetuated it by replying.

Any thoughts? A useful discussion? Or will this thread die quickly....

Personally I think a combination of the first two solutions could readily shut down poor quality threads. The second only works if people listen and agree that the thread is better off dead. I believe it would work a reasonable percentage of the time.
 
I have noticed it as well. I try to just ignore the threads. Many times I am astonished by how much response some of these threads get.
 
At present many of these threads are kept alive but questions and answers that got in circles or by people who add to the replies telling them to post elsewhere.
Not to mention that once the threads get long enough you start getting replies/solutions that were already offered earlier in the thread, but the new poster didn't catch up before posting.

Another solution I might add is to skim the comments before posting.
 
@human909 I applaud the sentiment on this but I fear that you are about to join me in floating down Rio Futilo.

REPORT the thread and rely on admin to remove it and/or

It is very rare that admin will remove anything that does not violate explicit forum policies. And it will be even more rare that admin will create forum policies that may have the potential to throttle site traffic. Yeah, I know... the golden goose, short term v long term thinking etc.

have a strong direct reply and a strong request that nobody else replies so the thread dies a natural death

I find that modern sensibilities trend towards almost infinite compassion these days. While that is mostly much needed progress, it also makes it next to impossible to do any communal forum policing. When I feel compelled to call out poor behavior, I find that the effort winds up being 5% callout and 95% defending the action from other members here who find me to be a discourteous, bullying, sociopath. I find the emotional cost of that to be quite draining.

Or maybe I'm just getting older.

Tell me about it. In the catfishing thread, I could feel myself drifting into a hybrid of Robert McNamara and Jack Nicholson's character in A Few Good Men. And I don't like that as I fundamentally consider myself to be quite tolerant and generous of spirit.

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I actually don't mind incompetence on the forum so much. Even extreme incompetence.

There are many engineers that do not have access to quality mentorship for various reasons and one of my favorite things about participating on this forum is that it gives me/us the opportunity to rectify that to some degree. We do the Lord's work here in that respect I feel. Or the Spaghetti Monster in my case. This is primarily what keeps me active on this forum as opposed to other, more exclusive spaces, where there is less clutter.

That said, I do feel that there is an etiquette implicit in any mentoring relationship that applies here, just as it would in a physical office. So, what I do mind is:

1) Any attempt at deceit or manipulation.

2) Failing to reciprocate a generous teaching investment by not making a commensurate effort to learn and improve.

3) Exploiting the generosity of mentors to, effectively, have them do your work for you.

One of my early mentors was brilliant and infinitely generous with his time but had this policy when it came to questions:

a) If I came to him with a question, I needed to have generated at least one possible answer myself beforehand.

b) If he taught me something, I was expected to learn it, even if it required some self study. Repeated questions were not looked upon favorably.

Nothing about that setup was hostile or intimidating. When my proposed answers were correct, I felt on top of the world. When they were incorrect, that was usually an opportunity for levity.

It's just an extension of the Golden Rule really. Value other people's time and energy as you would your own.

I find that majority of the junior engineers that come here seeking help get this intuitively. There's just the odd bad apple that does not spoil the bunch.
 
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Tell me about it. In the catfishing thread, I could feel myself drifting into a hybrid of Robert McNamara and Jack Nicholson's character in A Few Good Men. And I don't like that as I fundamentally consider myself to be quite tolerant and generous of spirit.

That's when it's time to take a step back and walk off the frustration rather than engaging further and feeding the trolls. I don't know if the forum has a block user option to prevent seeing any posts by them but if there is, i would strongly recommend you make use it of.

There's been more than one user that i've seen you continue to respond to way beyond what i'd recommend. Maybe you should take your mentors policy (b) and ignore repeated questions. It there's an itch to help further then i suggest pointing the questioner towards some appropriate reference material (books, youtube lecture, etc) and recognize that the lack of understanding on their part means they would benefit more from such structured learning rather than a back and forth on this forum.

i agree with XR250's recommendation of ignoring some posts and surprise that some conversations keep going and going
 
I appreciate all the comments included in this thread so far, but I highly recommend the approach of ignoring threads that you don't wish to actively participate in, that's the one skill I seem to be very well equipped in on this forum.

My concern comes from if we (or admin) start policing the forum more and delete threads, is that you might reduce/eliminate the participation in the forum. Look at the civil engineering forum, the place is quite barren, and I fear that limiting posting here may lead to that. Do I want to have something like the structural engineering reddit thread on this site? Certainly not, but I think the status quo strikes a good balance, and I don't think it needs a change at this time.

Though I don't post much, I do read nearly every thread, and I find much levity/humor in these threads that OP is specifically referencing, not the least any Hoshang threads, or the recent one by spicycheesecake about c-channels instead of a wood beam. Clearly not questions posted by those within the industry, but I think it allows the regulars to let their humor shine through, and keeps me from having to read yet another thread asking if "my base plate connection is capable of resisting moment?". While I tend to learn a lot from postings found in the latter questions, I tend to come back to the forum due to the humor and personality found within the former questions.
 
I would like a conditional autoreply that simply reads "Congratulations! You have just asked one of the top 5 repeated questions in this forum! Here are some results from the forum search utility that you may find useful..."

One of the best potential applications for AI in our field that I can think of..

I find myself not wanting to engage on threads with topics that are constantly repeated over the years or are obviously from non-engineers, but I feel like if there is not some sound advice offered from some of the generous mentors on here then the bad advice/discussion that fills in the gap may remain on the forum in perpetuity.. Luckily some of the heavy hitters around here generally come to the plate, but if everyone with experience disengages from these threads I wonder what/who will fill the gap. A layperson in 10years may not know the difference in a reply from JAE or KootK and one from CluelessStudent123.

Nothing these days could change the standard of care quicker than bad advice on Eng Tips..
 
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But there seems to be an increasing number of student or very inadequately trained engineers posting in this forum.
Regarding the increase in students posting, I agree. And I find that a bit rude since there is a student forum.

Regarding incompetence I think it is more complex. The person asking the question probably doesn't realize their own incompetence. But after a while it should be clear that some education outside the forum is more appropriate that continuing with "stupid" questions. But that is just an opinion :) .

Regarding the thread where Kootk posted some comments in. There can be a lot of opinions regarding how a forum should work or how users should behave.
That particular user started several treads and asked different questions, sometimes very detailed, and got replies. But I don't think the user ever replied in a thread that somebody else had started. If all users behaved like that there would be no discussion, at all. So that approach is from my perspective not very useful or acceptable.

I have over the years learned things just by reading threads. Sometimes a question asked by somebody else can be very educational. I have also asked questions myself and been helped that way. And occasionally I may also have helped others with their questions. I assume that others can recognize the same experience. The size of the forum is one of the strengths.
 
@human909 @XR250 @WhomeverElseCares

As long as we're talking forum clutter, I've been wanting to create some.

How would we feel about a thread dedicated the structural aspects of bicycles, bicycling, and the human bodies that do the bicycling?

I've easily got enough interesting content for 20+ questions but it would probably just be best to tackle them one at a time in just one, container thread.

No, these questions would not constitute paid engineering assignments for me. I wish. Although I may attempt a post-engineering career as a geriatric bike fitter.

Yes, I could ask these questions on cycling forums. And I have. I'm afraid that your average cyclist is not.... properly equipped to discuss this with me. Safety dictates that cyclists ought to stay in their own lanes after all.

I'm not a student if that helps??
 
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How would we feel about a thread dedicated the structural aspects of bicycles, bicycling, and the human bodies that do the bicycling?
As long as there is a long debate about whether a wheel hangs from its spokes or is supported by the bottom spokes, or some other combinations then I'm in and ready! :devilish:
 
As long as there is a long debate about whether a wheel hangs from its spokes or is supported by the bottom spokes, or some other combinations then I'm in and ready!

Hell yes, I'll add that to the itinerary. What I could really use is a great FEM model of a bike frame and a rear wheel (separately). Know anybody?? I'd like to be able to do this kind of stuff, just way better given that 200 years have passed since Trek volunteered that info.

Just gonna go out on a limb here but I feel as though you and @XR250 might also be interest in... the dynamics of MTB suspension systems??

The state of physics understanding in the bike-o-verse is bafflingly abysmal. Apparently, we've just now figured out that the additional leverage associated with longer crank arms isn't all that different from just shifting to a different gear. And that you can still breath if you clap your hands together in front of your torso. I guess all of the scientists were just too busy figuring out how to get to the moon during the Merckx era to bother with bike stuff.
 
The state of physics understanding in the bike-o-verse is bafflingly abysmal. Apparently, we've just now figured out that the additional leverage associated with longer crank arms isn't all that different from just shifting to a different gear. And that you can still breath if you clap your hands together in front of your torso. I guess all of the scientists were just too busy figuring out how to get to the moon during the Merckx era to bother with bike stuff.
We should be surprised that 'crank science' is common in the design of bikes, especially cranks. 😝 Alot, of ignorance too.

Just look at how many times we have gone around trying to design out of round (oval etc) chain wheels. Or the forever myth of the vast benefits of clip in shoes because you can pull up on on the upstroke. Or the typical physics teacher response that bicycles rely on the gyroscopic effect for stability.

Or the true fact, one the fools even most cyclists: Turning you handle bars to the LEFT initiates a RIGHT turn. And vice-versa.

There are papers looking at bicycle science but academic papers don't sell new bike tech so they don't get much attentions.
 
Or the true fact, one the fools even most cyclists: Turning you handle bars to the LEFT initiates a RIGHT turn. And vice-versa.

Given that, it's a miracle that children ever figure out how to ride bicycles. The percentage of parents that give their children accurate instruction on how, actually, to turn a bike has to be pretty close to zero. It's a testament to physical intuition I suppose.

My dad, like a lot of dads, told me to turn the wheel in the direction that I wanted to go and lean into the turn. When, really, you need to counter steer the bike out from underneath you and then kind of fall towards the inside of the turn as you bring the steering around to match the desired direction of travel and balance out the centrifugal forces. A diagram would have been spiffy.

My research has lead me to understand that the true masters of two wheeled vehicle physics are actually motorcyclists. They do it much better although not everything translates perfectly to bicycles because of the relative difference in weight between the rider and the vehicles.
 
I’ve noticed a dip in quality recently with some of the posts and also noticed plenty of repeat questions, but I still think this place is top notch.

I wouldn’t want a new (or old) engineer who doesn’t know something obvious to others (but wants to learn) to be afraid to ask a question.

In hindsight, I’ve also made plenty of dumb comments of my own.

With the repeat questions, that’s fine with me. Sometimes I’ll start to forget something that I once learned in great depth, and the repetition helps keep it fresh. Even just reading a question can be helpful.

In a few cases, the thread seems rather hopeless with the OP not putting in much initiative, and I tend to avoid those.
 
Or the true fact, one the fools even most cyclists: Turning you handle bars to the LEFT initiates a RIGHT turn. And vice-versa.
Learned countersteering early on riding motorcycles. Push right (i.e. right hand) , go right. push left, go left.
 
Learned countersteering early on riding motorcycles. Push right (i.e. right hand) , go right. push left, go left.

Curious, are you of the opinion that your motorcycle ever travels in any direction other than that which the front wheel points?
 
Given that, it's a miracle that children ever figure out how to ride bicycles. The percentage of parents that give their children accurate instruction on how, actually, to turn a bike has to be pretty close to zero. It's a testament to physical intuition I suppose.

My dad, like a lot of dads, told me to turn the wheel in the direction that I wanted to go and lean into the turn. When, really, you need to counter steer the bike out from underneath you and then kind of fall towards the inside of the turn as you bring the steering around to match the desired direction of travel and balance out the centrifugal forces. A diagram would have been spiffy.

My research has lead me to understand that the true masters of two wheeled vehicle physics are actually motorcyclists. They do it much better although not everything translates perfectly to bicycles because of the relative difference in weight between the rider and the vehicles.
I never instructed my kids how to turn (I've never thought much about the mechanics either, and maybe that's why?). Mine all started on strider bikes (no pedals) and had everything figured out so once it was time for pedal bikes (4 for the older two, might get it done before he turns three for the youngest), it was hold the seat when they figure out the mechanics of starting with the pedals ( both kids took 3 quick tries), and they took it from there. All this to say, sometimes its easier to just figure it out on your own, lol - also strider bikes for the win.

I'm not a big biker but I would still very much enjoy the thread if/when you start it.
 

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