Formula 1 Batteries 3

[mloew]

I was just looking at some of the technical specifications for the new Formula 1 cars and see that they are still using lead acid. Certainly there is a battery technology that can reliably deliver 12v 5Ah (Spec. for the 2003 BAR) in this application that is significantly lighter. Any thoughts?

Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew

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[GregLocock]

That is astonishing. Given that all it has to do is run the on board electronics, and so on, almost any battery technology would be a better choice. Silver Zinc is a reliable battery with high current cpaacity, much used in facy applications. Typically it would weigh 1/3 of the equivalent lead acid battery. The NiMH battery in your phone is an even better bet, as are lithium cells. Do they run an alternator? Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[patprimmer]

I would think that for roll over safty, that lead acid was out, regardless of other factors.
What is their ignition system, what other onboard electrical draw is there, including TV cameras.
I suspect that no charging system is required, as the races only go about 2 hours.
I am still finding hard to believe that they use lead acid batteries, while my cellphone and notebook both have lithium batteries.
I run my skiboat, with a 350 Chev, no alternator, and a points type ignition, for a long weekend without charging the battery, but I have a big battery, but then again, I stop start a lot and do probably up to 15 hours running Regards
pat

 

[mloew]

I was stunned as well. Especially with BAR - Honda! After all, they use nickel metal-hydride batteries (supplied by Matsushita Electric) in their production hybrids! Best regards,

Matthew Ian Loew

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[carnage]

actually as astonishing as it may sound lead acid battery technology is still the best solution for most atomotive uses. lead acid propperly done stores more energy per unit of weight than many other battery types. it also can push out 300 to 500 amps without damaging the battery whitch many battery types can't do. NiMH batteries are great, especially in a hybrid application with high voltage and low current, but i wouldnt want to see a NiMH designed to put out 500A @ 12V Lithium cells are also great for many apps but to get out that kind of amperage at 12v without putting cells in paralell (whitch you really can't do without isolaters for charging) seems like it would be very dificult.

I havent done any research into silver zinc, so they may be better suited for this application than lead acid.

The one thing I can't understand is why noone runs supercaps instead of batteries. supercaps currently cannot hold as much charge per unit of weight as lead acid, but can be fully recharged in a matter of a few seconds.
you could run an endurance race without an alternator, everytime you stop for fuel or tires top off the supercaps as well, and unlike battery cells caps can be run in paralell.

besides it would make the comentators taking about the pit stops more interesting.

 

[patprimmer]

I don't really know if the rules for formula 1 require the car to be started without outside assistance. If they do not, I can't imagine that a starter motor would be fitted.

If there is no starter motor, or no need to use it if it is fitted (say, by requirement of rules), then there would be no high current draw, so no need for lead acid, and therefore no posibility of sulphuric acid splashing about in a crash. Regards
pat

 

[evelrod]

I don't know the source of the lead/acid deal but, most formula cars from as far back as I care to remember have used gel cell batteries of some sort. Even formula fords use a gel cell mounted usually below the drivers knees. I HAVE seen a couple of 'school' cars with a lead/acid mounted out back by the gearbox. It wouldn't be legal for a race would be my guess.
Some race engines DO have onboard charging systems, as example, the Cosworth 'crank pully alternator'.
No on board starter is allowed on Formula 1, IRL or, CART race cars. I personally think they should be REQUIRED to self start. On the other hand, I rather liked the pneumatic starters of years past. I liked the sound.

Rod

 

[CoryPad]

I found a site that compares battery types:

http://www.technick.net/public/code...02&PHPSESSID=3d16a63ef42322771507356e203009f6

The stored energy per unit mass is low for lead-acid batteries, and high for lithium-ion. This agrees with current usage - production automobiles use inexpensive, heavy batteries while mobile computers and phones use expensive, light ones.

Regarding alternators, they are used on F1 engines. Here is one from Magneti Marelli:

http://www.marelli.it/racing/products.htm

According to the Formula 1 Technical Regulations, available at:

http://www.fia.com/homepage/selection-a.html

on-board starters are not prohibited. Teams choose not to use them to save mass.

 

[GregLocock]

<carnage> &quot;lead acid propperly done stores more energy per unit of weight than many other battery types. &quot;

You are confusing energy density with power density, they are not the same thing. Lead acid has just about the worst energy density of any commercially available battery type.

I've been arc welding with gel cells, so they can handle starter motor currents!

Typically Silver Zincs are less tolerant of high currents than lead acids, but in this application (no starter motor) they would be fine.
Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[carnage]

I didn't realis there was no starter, if that is the case then I don't understand why a race team would use lead acid either.

as for gel cells that term is a bit ambiguous when refering to chemical combo's for the batteries as there are a few different types that can be set up as gel cells.

and yes I was probibly confusing the two as it has been a long time since I have been dooing any EV or HEV studies.