flex fuel 8

[mfgenggear]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicle

flex fuel engines

Mfgenggear

 

[mfgenggear]

what I would like to know is why can it be done in the states?
what are the modifications required for flex fuel vehicle.
my understanding it's all about the corrosive nature of alcohol.

Mfgenggear

 

[patprimmer]

It is done in the USA and I think almost all developed countries.

The fuel systems needed upgrading to avoid corrosion of metals and chemical attack of polymers used in the system.

As the different fuels require different a:f the EMS requires a source of data to correct a:f for fuel type. I am not sure what they use for a sensor or what happens if the sensor fails.

Regards
Pat
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[mfgenggear]

I am observing more Hybrids than flex fuel cars. and no areas to fill with E20 or above. it seems it just faded out.
more a combination of electric & gas motor, or full electric.
The electric cars are unbelievably expensive.

I live in southern california and it seems that there is BS happening with the gas prices here.
The fuel injection with alcohol & water was an interesting subject also.
it would be nice to be weaned off gasoline.(petrol).

Mfgenggear

 

[TD2K]

I'm of the understanding that E95 (the typical second fuel in a flex fuel vehicle) is mostly availabe in the Mid-West though this suggests it's more widely available than I thought:

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_locations.html

 

[mfgenggear]

it seems the nearest flex fuel is 15 miles, plus the an additional 15 miles from where i live so 30 miles.

mfgenggear

 

[mfgenggear]

there appears to be approx. 18 gas stations in california with alcohol.
what gives.

Mfgenggear

 

[MikeHalloran]

E85 became economically competitive only with a government subsidy to Archer Daniels Midland amounting to $6B/year. The subsidy has run out.

No worries; the corn lobby continues to suck on the big teat in DC.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[Lou Scannon]

FWIW, I've never seen E85 priced competitively with pump gasoline on a $/BTU basis. To be competitive energy-cost-wise, E85 needs to be about 70% of the price of gasoline by volume. Regular gasoline price in Michigan this week is about $3.50/US gal, minimum. A competitive price for E85 would be about $2.45/gal. Didn't get a chance to check E85 price lately but I'll bet it's close to $3/gal.

"Schiefgehen will, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[patprimmer]

I think with a compression ratio to take full advantage of 85% ethanol, beter fuel economy than the energy content suggests could result, but to keep an engine configured to run acceptably on a wide variety of fuels costs economy on every fuel vs a dedicated design. Sure tune adjustments can compensate, but will still not match the results from a dedicated fuel with the engine optimised to that in configuration and tune.

Regards
Pat
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[Lou Scannon]

Pat, I fully agree. Since almost every vehicle these days, flex-fuel included, is configured to run on regular gasoline, CR is definitely not optimised for E85. The only tangible improvement you might expect when running E85 in a factory stock vehicle is a little bit more knock-limited peak power, assuming that the engine controller is configured to run at the knock limit at WOT.

"Schiefgehen will, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[BigClive]

Are some of these engines arranged to automatically analyse the ethanol/petrol proportions of the fuel heading for the engine and adjust the amount of fuel injection to suit?

 

[patprimmer]

BigClive

I think so but I don't know how.

Regards
Pat
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[Lou Scannon]

I believe the strategy is something along the lines of, when the vehicle is restarted and the fuel level has increased significantly, any dramatic shift in air/fuel ratio that is detected by exhaust oxygen sensors is attributed to a change in the proportion of ethanol in the fuel, and special learning tables are set up to adjust the open loop fueling, so that the closed loop correction tends toward zero.

"Schiefgehen will, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[dgallup]

There are sensors in the fuel line that tell the ECU the percentage of alcohol in the fuel so it can make fueling adjustments. I don't know what principal they are using to sense it.

I've seen a few hot rodders build E85 specific vehicles that take advantage of the high octane level of the fuel. These are mostly trailer queens as you can not find a reliable E85 source in most driving areas.

Corn based E85 has never made sense to anyone but the pointy haired bureaucrats in Washington. At least they have taken the tax off imported Brazilian ethanol (I believe). Maybe some day when they perfect cellulosic (sp?) or other better non-food based ethanol production it will become something other than a tax payer boondoggle.

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[mfgenggear]

The gasoline price here in southern cal is at average of $5.65 imperial gallon.
I would gladly pay the $3.00 for a gallon of E85 if I had a flex vehicle.
plus less pollution right?

Mfgenggear

 

[dgallup]

Where can you buy an imperial gallon in the US?

E85 is over $3 for a US gallon here and regular is only $3.40.

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[mfgenggear]

dgallup
US gallon is not same ? oops
Bad on me.

I wish it was $3.40 a gallon here.
I would be saving $2.25 a gallon.

Mfgenggear

 

[patprimmer]

dgallup

Corn is mainly cellulose as is any other substance that alcohol can be made from via fermentation.

Regards
Pat
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[mfgenggear]

"I've seen a few hot rodders build E85 specific vehicles that take advantage of the high octane level of the fuel."


If I wanted to convert a pre 1967 style chevy vehicle (chevy 350 carbureted) engine to run on alcohol, what would be needed.
besides stainless steel lines. what type of hose connections, altered carburetor.
what if I made a still(methanol?) for personal use. where can I get a design to build it.

Mfgenggear