Elliot Lake Collapse Public Inquiry

[DamsInc]

Refer to previous thread:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=324537

The public inquiry is currently ongoing and being streamed live at

http://www.elliotlakeinquiry.ca/

The structural engineer responsible for the design is on the stand right now. Should make for some interesting discussion. My apologies if this is against the rules.

 

[hokie66]

Wow! Sounds like this inquiry is one of five investigations underway. A real lawyer's picnic. I would have thought one engineering firm with all appropriate disciplines, plus a lawyer or two, would have been enough to get to the bottom of this. But at least with all this investigating, information will be made public, including these live streamed sessions.

 

[VoyageofDiscovery]

Just putting this out there, but shouldn't this be being carried out by the PEO as opposed to a public inquiry?

 

[hokie66]

The PEO is doing one as well. Reading the Commissioner's opening statement, there are separate investigations ongoing by the Police, PEO, Coroner, and Ministry of Labour. But I think it is good that at least one of these investigations is public.

 

[BAretired]

Why not by the PEO? Because the PEO has no jurisdiction insofar as determining fault or assigning blame. If the fault lies with anyone other than a professional member of the PEO, the PEO can make no determination. They can decide only whether the professional service was unskilled or unprofessional. If they make a finding of unskilled practice, their finding might be taken into consideration in subsequent legal proceedings, but it carries very little weight in the legal process.

BA

 

[hokie66]

This inquiry is broad based, and engineering issues are only part of the story.

 

[dik]

I went through a bunch of the exhibit documents and there does not appear to be an engineering sealed set of structural drawings. At best, all I could locate was a bunch of shop drawings without seal prepared by York Steel... I could not find Architectural drawings, either...

Dik

 

[dik]

From the earlier thread:

It gets more interesting, "A former manager of the Elliot Lake, Ont., mall says the owner was warned as far back as 2008 that if he didn’t make repairs to the mall roof it could collapse.

Brian England says he was with Bob Nazarian, the 66-year-old Richmond Hill businessman who owns the mall, when Nazarian was told of the consequences of not doing repair work to the mall’s roof.

“The architect plain and simply told Mr. Nazarian that if he didn’t proceed with these repairs,” said England, “that we could find that his structure was at the point of deterioration that it possibly could collapse."


Brian England is not on the list of Witnesses...

Dik

 

[DamsInc]

I'm hoping that somewhere the video testimony will be posted online. I think that people here would be amazed with the engineer's inability to answer any of the lawyer's questions.

 

[dik]

according to the web site, it's supposed to be posted... as well as transcripts.

Dik

 

[DamsInc]

Yes, it seems they posted the videos on the webpage today.

 

[miningman]

For the benefit of people who dont have much regular access to Canadian press reports etc.... and I wish I had bookmarked the relevant web page.... there was an article earlier this week where an engineer (I believe he was a field engineer during construction, rather than the design engineer) who stated that at the time of construction he had almost zero experience with membrane sealing of flat roofs (and he conceded he had acquired virtually zero experience in the last 30 years). The article also stated that this was the second mall collapse he has been associated with, and presently is under a restiction not to practice engineering, except under the supervision of another P.Eng.

I accept that published info is not always 100% factual or reliable, but there is likely to be an awefull lot that any practicing engineer can learn from this inquiry.

 

[dik]

From the Winnipeg Free Press:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/ca...ue-to-design-flaw-inquiry-told-196659321.html

Dik

 

[DamsInc]

That's a pretty damning article on the waterproofing company.

Here's one about the mall's owner:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...r_of_blatant_disregard_for_public_safety.html

I'm sure a number of people here have stories about dealing with similar owners.



Documents filed at the public inquiry into the tragedy show the former manager of the Algo Centre Mall and its adjoining hotel in Elliot Lake, Ont., quit after claiming owner Bob Nazarian pressed her to break the law.

According to the statement, Nazarian told her the city and fire department were conspiring to drive up costs related to the mall so that he would lose the facility, although why he might have thought so is not clear.

“Bob advised that he would not let that happen, so I was advised not to waste time or money following the fire department’s directions on the inspection reports,” she said.

"Nazarian, who is slated to testify in about four or five weeks, faces a contempt citation in Divisional Court on March 20 for failing to turn over documents demanded by the commission."

 

[dik]

That in conjunction with England's comment is likely digging a bigger pit... The OPP are likely following the hearing quite closely.

Dik

 

[hokie66]

The following attachment is the forensic report commissioned by the Ontario Police.

Warning: It is 140 pages, and takes a while to download.

http://www2.elliotlakeinquiry.ca/exhibits/mar_12_13/NL_E000010274.pdf

 

[connect2]

The NORR report comissioned by the OPP is very interesting. It lays out the events pretty well from design to collapse and all the parties involved in between. So is a good read other than periodically NORR get's a little 'rightous' in assessing fault. The PEO is pretty tight lipped about whose conducting their investigation at least I haven't been able to find much out about their end.

 

[ToadJones]

An animation + a video of the actual collapse in case no one has posted it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/03/21/elliot-lake-mall-collapse-video-algo-centre_n_2927511.html

 

[charliealphabravo]

I went through a bunch of the exhibit documents and there does not appear to be an engineering sealed set of structural drawings. At best, all I could locate was a bunch of shop drawings without seal prepared by York Steel... I could not find Architectural drawings, either...

Even if the sealed structural drawings do exist I have found that attorneys do not always appreciate the importance of presenting them in court or properly tracking versions. When I am doing expert testimony and someone pushes a report or a portion of an engineering report under my nose without a seal (even my own), I have occasionally objected and refused to comment. Engineers and engineering companies in many jurisdictions are required to maintain official copies for just this very purpose.

 

[dik]

The one news article indicated the NORR Report was 700 pages... is this just an executive summary? or was the news article wrong... Give me something to read tonight.

Dik