Partial Mall Collapse
Partial Mall Collapse
(OP)
...from the Winnipeg Free Press, "ELLIOT LAKE, Ont. - A roof partially collapsed at a busy mall in the northern Ontario city of Elliot Lake on Saturday, prompting a local state of emergency and a search for anyone who might have been injured in the cave-in.
The collapse took place at the Algo Centre Mall a little after 2 p.m., at a time when the centre was bustling with weekend shoppers."
Dik
The collapse took place at the Algo Centre Mall a little after 2 p.m., at a time when the centre was bustling with weekend shoppers."
Dik






RE: Partial Mall Collapse
look like the roof was a carpark.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Collapsed just to the left of the Dollar Store. Is this an indicator?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Pushed by whatever the reasons, I have seen prefab buildings standing on no other lateral strength than the cantilever action of the colums (no shearwall, no bracing, no framing). Tooo much children's architecture, ready to fall by any movement.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Too often I feel we go looking for the engineers mistake first, rather than taking all perspectives.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
We can speculate all we want, but looks like a probable corrosion at a connection issue, since the beam appears to have failed on one end. Both design and construction (except waterproofing), could have been proper....just failure to resolve the waterproofing issues and maintain the building...but then, was it maintainable?! All questions for the ensuing litigation.
Hope everyone was OK.
I assisted my former business partner in the investigation of the collapse of the roof of a Sears Store in a mall in St. John, Newfoundland in the '80's. That one had a reason....high snow load and some fabrication problems with the open web joists. It also had some warning...the ceiling tiles started to droop, then a pop was heard....the security people cleared the store in less than 5 minutes and as the security guard was opening the door to leave as the final person there, the roof caved in. He was thrown through the doors but not injured.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
So I am not specifically blaming designers, but what in my understanding has sometimes become sanctified practice of too little support or restraint. Even if hidden by the technics, it is our work to find sound structural proportions able to once and for all bar these failures that sparsely occur.
The failure being at an end, it suggest a support failure.
I am also wary of ANY "1 million dollars" or whatever reform. It is also well proven that lot of times reforms damage the structural systems and then it has not been corrossion but -who knows if criminal- negligence by some party what has caused the failure.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/06/25/ell...
http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/201...
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/25/elliot-lak...
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
To start off on a discussion about a failure as though it is possibly due to negligence on the engineers behalf does nothing for the engineers as a group. Sure you can say this is something your aware of with about this construction, but lets be realistic, you have never been to site, you are working off one or two photos and a few reports. You really have no idea about the building at all in regards to structure, foundations ect. I think it is self destroying as an engineer to start the discussion as thou the engineer is as fault. I think it would be better to start with a more open mind and realistic review of the situation.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ellio...
one confirmed death and possibly 20 missing.
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Really drives home the tremendous responsibilities on structural engineers when designing and trying to convince owners that inspection, maintenance and repair is required over the life of a parking garage. It has never seemed right to me that the owner, who may have not more than a grade 9 education, can make the decision of whether or not to carry out the engineer's repair recommendations, even though the public safety is at stake.
Although I would not use precast hollow core slabs for parking garages, I think it would be incorrect to conclude at this stage that there was a design error.
Very sad and tragic that they have had to discontinue the search because the structure is deemed unsafe, even though they hear tapping from the rubble.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Interesting that the emergency crew is expecting the owner to provide an engineering report to safely gain access and has stopped operations because it is dangerous without this.
A couple of years back I sent a letter to the PEO (prof assn). when there was a death caused by a masonry washroom wall collapse. With the stage collapse and now this, I think it's time to send more correspondence. We are charged with safeguarding the public... and we seem to be failing.
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Yet time and time again we witness things falling apart because of a proven lack of maintenance."
CAB:
I haven't stated it is an engineering problem, but it likely is... either from design, materials, corrosion, or whatever.
In any event the professional associations (around the world) should be involved if there is a collapse and a member of the public is affected.
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
I eventually closed my practice rather than gypo, and went to work for a 'dark side' D-B property developer as in-house engineer. I found it's not the developers, it's the contracted A/E's and GC subcontractors! The looting!! The looting!! One structural hit us for $500,000 in fees, and said to my face, "Don't worry about the (85% design submittal marked 'For Construction'), we'll take care of 'minor' design-detailing changes by CHANGE ORDER." Not for $500,000 in design fees we won't!!!
I found at least 20 lapses, a total lack of detailing, but all they'd give us to review with was the bulk computer printout, yet they were able to get a construction permit from the City B.O. with that 'engineering submittal'!! So we had to pay them for 'construction ready plans', then fire them from the CM portion of the project, ...but sure enough, we had to BUY OUT their CM contract portion.
Then GC subcontractor CO gouging ... O...M...G~! In the historical accounts of the Mortgage.Con, when we sit by the fire, nobody will ever know how many lives were saved from shoddy D-B gypos by that 'untimely' end to the Great R/E Bubble. I would never buy any property built in the 2000s.
Now it looks like a whole generation of graduating engineers will be lost.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
BA
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
What are "gypos"?
I think I decoded these:
OMG = oh my god
CO - change order
CM = construction management
D-B = design-build
GC = general contractor
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
There are many exceptions, but a lot of A-E (architecture-engineering) firms are more concerned with the monthly (not even yearly) profit than doing the design correctly. Many have the attitude that "the contractor can figure it out."
At my last company, there was a known issue with the drainage plans. Instead of fixing it on the design budget, they ignored it until construction so it could be fixed as part of the construction management budget. It cost the client over a million dollars in change orders. I have no idea how much of the money was recouped from the design firm, since I had left the company by then.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
We used to have a company president who refused to allow the use of abbriviations on the drawings. He never succeeded at that, but it was a good sentiment. How much time have people spent trying to decipher abbreviations, and how much time was really saved by not writing the full word?
By the way, not all of Bliman's words are really acronyms...I think many of them are abbreviations. Abbreviations are not the same as acronyms. I think that acronyms are generally pronounceable and each letter stands for a word. For example, NATO is an acronym; CO is an abbreviation.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Sounds like someone didn't require the structural engineer to define a scope and fee in a contract. So who's to blame for that?
I wish I could "hit" someone with a $500k fee but that isn't reality in my neck of the woods.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
A few others describe years of water leakage.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Perhaps this discussion should be in the language forum, but the definition of acronym has evolved so that there is not universal agreement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym_and_initialis...
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Brian England says he was with Bob Nazarian, the 66-year-old Richmond Hill businessman who owns the mall, when Nazarian was told of the consequences of not doing repair work to the mall’s roof.
“The architect plain and simply told Mr. Nazarian that if he didn’t proceed with these repairs,” said England, “that we could find that his structure was at the point of deterioration that it possibly could collapse."
Negligent Homicide, anyone?
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
And does not sound like an engineer failed. But I agree with other posts above - don't speculate too much. Wait for the investigation/reports.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
In 1980, the fee for Columbia Center in Seattle was 900K - a 76 story high rise. Bound to be a touch more today. Just thought you'd like to know...
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/112923-elliot...
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
my favorite part is,
"Major national chains, such as Zellers, apparently ignored the warning signs. So did the federal government, which had a Service Canada office there, as did the local MP and the local member of the provincial legislature.
Significantly, one of the mall’s anchor tenants, the Bank of Nova Scotia, moved out a few months ago. Previously the bank had ripped out the drywall because of mould and was down to concrete floors and walls.
Yet no one made the tough call to shut down the mall. Inspectors from the Ministry of Labour checked out the mall on a regular basis — six times in the past three years — but nothing happened."
followed by
"The blame game is pointless."
While I may be the only engineer left with any faith in our profession (Yes I believe that 99% of building designed by an engineer are not going to fall on my head), I can see no reason why lay people such as the National chains, Local MP and Inspections from the ministry of labour, would even think twice that a leaking roof could lead to a collapse of the building or why they should.
Yep hind-site says otherwise, but lets get our heads out of the clouds. truth is that the owner and any professionals engaged to review the building are the only people that should have reviewed the damage, all others are not in anyway responsible.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Now the people in white coats take care of me.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Sorry, but I thought the article was appropriate and well written. Your opinion is noted.
I don't think it is known if water intrusion contributed to the collapse, but water is the greatest enemy of buildings.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
BA
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
The failure appeared to be at a support.
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
I once was asked to look at some hollow core plank - the facility manager took me through an old abandoned plant - walked a ways across a large open room and down some stairs - underneath the very floor I walked I saw that the floor was comprised of hollow core planks - most of which had spalled the entire bottom "flange" off with multiple dangling strands hanging down as much as 15 feet. And I had just walked across it. This was an interior floor - no rain but probably daily washings as it was a meat packing plant.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Thanks for the added info... most damaged HC planks I've seen are at the ends or as a result of the core popping because of frozen trapped water... in this instance, I suspect that damage was due to movement or corrosion at the bearing ends.
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
i'm with dik on the corrosion mechanism. the steel beam at the door looks pretty bad in the photograph. can someone with more HC experience confirm the direction of the span? it looks like the failed HC panels were supported at the door but this is opposite to the direction of the remaining panels in the photograph.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
It would be of interest to know whether or not there was water proofing traffic topping on this structure or not, and if there was proper slopes tpo drains and if the drainage piping we all clogged up. I suppose there was a membrane or it would have leaked like a sieve, but it sounds like it had gone beyond its design service life.
from day one into the occupied space below.
dik: it makes little difference whether the concrete is in compression or tension, with respect to protection of the steel. The corrosive chemicals are absorbed by the concrete and eventually penetrate to the steel, irrespective of whether there are any tension cracks or not. Sherway Gardens Mall parking structure was recently demolished; in that structure some of the strands were badly corroding at mid-span of the tees where they were in compression. What really drove this home to me was the Place Bell Canada garage in Ottawa in 1983 or so, which was heavily post-tensioned so that the yop was in compression just about everywhere and there were virtually no cracks in the top surface, yet the this had some of the most extensive corrosion of the top reinforcing bars that I have ever seen.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Two women were killed on June 23 when the roof of the Algo Centre Mall caved in and plummeted two floors down into the building.
The provincial police force was assisting the Ontario Chief Coroner's office in its investigation into the deaths of Doloris Perizzolo, 74, and Lucie Aylwin, 37, but "as a result of information obtained," the police said Tuesday they are now also looking into the collapse as a criminal investigation."
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
From the Globe and Mail, "A class-action lawsuit has been launched in relation to the fatal Elliot Lake mall collapse, according to a press release.
The release says that specific details of the lawsuit will be released this afternoon at the Elliot Lake Hampton Inn.
A source speaking on background said that the City of Elliot Lake, the province, and the mall’s owner will be party to the suit."
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/395566/algom...
The firm who did the report has been sighted for professional misconduct in 2010, according to reports. The PEO is said to be investigating this report, and the collapse.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
It's also curious that they couldn't see the underside of a lot of the planks, due to the insulation. Seems like we may have a bearing failure here, likey the ends of the precast may have rotted out, or a beam flange went away.
This incident may have deep reprocusions in our industry, where it comes to condition assessments, and the liability we take on after.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
As part of PEO's assistance with the investigation of the Algo Centre Mall collapse, the following message is being sent to all licence holders in the province on behalf of the Ontario Province Police (OPP). Please contact the OPP directly should you have any information to provide.
Ontario Provincial Police
Criminal Investigation Branch
Criminal Investigation Services
777 Memorial Avenue
Orillia ON L3V 7V3
Thursday, July 26, 2012
Attention PEO Members:
On June 23, 2012 the roof of the Algo Mall in Elliot Lake Ontario collapsed claiming the lives of 37-year-old Lucie Aylwyn and 74-year-old Doloris Perrizzolo as well as injuring 19 other people.
The O.P.P. is investigating the cause of the collapse with the assistance of members of the PEO, who are conducting the forensic analysis of the building from an engineering perspective.
Our investigation to date has indicated that there may well have been a number of engineering assessments done in relation to the Algo Mall, for various purposes, since it was built in 1979.
There are obvious challenges associated with identifying the engineers who have conducted these assessments over such a time span and with retrieving related information and reports. For this reason we are asking for the assistance of PEO Members to attempt to identify and speak with those who may have been professionally involved with the Algo Mall.
While this is considered a Criminal Investigation, our primary goal is to provide answers to the people of Elliot Lake and, most importantly, to the families of the victims, as to what led to this catastrophic building failure.
If you, a colleague or your company has conducted an engineering assessment of any kind at the Algo Mall, or if you feel that you may be in a position to assist, please call the tip line at:
705-849-7246 or by email: OPPELLIOTLAKE.ALGOMALL@ontario.ca
Any information provided will be treated with the utmost regard and attentiveness to the sensitivity of its nature.
I sincerely thank you for any assistance in this matter.
Detective Inspector K.M. (Mike) Bickerton
Ontario Provincial Police
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1233666...
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
What is everyone's perspective on this? I know that we are often times hired to perform "visual" investigations of structures and we write reports outlining what we can visually see - if there are any visible distresses, cracks, flaws, etc.
Are we as structural engineers required to, or "allowed" to stop at visual examinations? Is our pledge to protect the public safety and welfare something that would compel us to recommend to an owner to do more tests, load tests, material tests, local destructive demo to open more lines of visibility?
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
I'm interested in this deliberation too. The question is even more difficult with shear failures like this one that may be sudden and experience minimal prior displacement. It's enough to give you cold sweats if you try to imagine a scenario where there are no warning signs if there is such a thing. The Hyatt Regency might have been close from a third party condition assessment point of view.
Aside from any standards that may apply, I foster a "follow your nose" instinct. Based on what little we think we know so far, this one stinks enough that an engineering survey that started out as visual should have long ago escalated into something more exploratory, so I say. Thirty plus years of documented leaks coupled with a steel frame under a winter parking lot over a food court would make you curious at the least I think. Add some quick span and bearing checks, pull back some insulation, probe or sound the steel and I have difficulty believing you wouldn't be worried by that point.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
YES. If the scope requires a visual then you provide a visual, and recommend further investigation as required from problems found from the investigation.
I don't subscribe to idea that as structural engineers we should go beyond our scopes in the name of good faith and NOT be paid for it.
http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
thread507-327024: guidelines for conducting structural assessments of exisiting buildings
During my practicing years, I avoided this type of work unless the client wanted me to look at a specific problem.
Usually the client wanted an engineering report to present to his bank for mortgage purposes and was not prepared to pay for a thorough engineering review.
The potential liability was the thing that scared me, so I tried to avoid that type of project.
BA
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
My question is more in line with - once the scope is completed, you've provided the services contracted for, and yet the visible things you've seen maybe suggest to you that there might be "more to the story", don't we have an obligation to recommend to the client that further study (i.e. more scope) might be necessary?
I'm not saying that I personally would be doing the additional work as the testing or methods might be beyond my expertise. It just seems that we have a moral, and engineering ethical duty to push for more study if we suspect danger.
That is the essence of the collapse story referred to above. Numerous engineers wrote reports over time. It seems to me that the engineers who stopped at their "scope" and just wrote a report, would be more likely to get sued than the engineer who wrote a report and then recommended further study. Sort of putting the monkey on the back of the owner instead of leaving the perspective that the engineer didn't go far enough in their study, or didn't bother to really look at the problems.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
I was contemplating an inspection that started out as visual; then, because of circumstances and observations or engineering instinct, resulted in the delivery of written recommendations to the client for further exploratory work. That is the engineer's professional and ethical responsibility barring some clear threat to life safety. If the engineer's judgement is overruled then in most jurisdictions that should start another ball rolling which ensures that the recommendation is not ignored.
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Dik
RE: Partial Mall Collapse
Obviously if they're not willing to pay you or anyone else to do it, then there's really not a whole lot to be done beyond that. If you're absolutely sure, could report to building department I suppose.