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Partial Mall Collapse
7

Partial Mall Collapse

Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
...from the Winnipeg Free Press, "ELLIOT LAKE, Ont. - A roof partially collapsed at a busy mall in the northern Ontario city of Elliot Lake on Saturday, prompting a local state of emergency and a search for anyone who might have been injured in the cave-in.

The collapse took place at the Algo Centre Mall a little after 2 p.m., at a time when the centre was bustling with weekend shoppers."

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Interesting... PS hollowcore plank over steel beams and girders with concrete encased columns.

Collapsed just to the left of the Dollar Store. Is this an indicator?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Supports for simply supported beams of whatever the kind in prestressed structures are sometimes not as good as required. I am always wary of small bearing support length for these items, that seem to go designed almost carelessly for malls where awesome amounts of people move daily.

Pushed by whatever the reasons, I have seen prefab buildings standing on no other lateral strength than the cantilever action of the colums (no shearwall, no bracing, no framing). Tooo much children's architecture, ready to fall by any movement.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Lets start with the assumption that the engineer design this building correctly and work from there for once and lets not assume it was incorrectly designed unless we have proof.

Too often I feel we go looking for the engineers mistake first, rather than taking all perspectives.

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

One reporter noted that the roof had leaked for years and even a $1M renovation hadn't stopped it.

We can speculate all we want, but looks like a probable corrosion at a connection issue, since the beam appears to have failed on one end. Both design and construction (except waterproofing), could have been proper....just failure to resolve the waterproofing issues and maintain the building...but then, was it maintainable?! All questions for the ensuing litigation.

Hope everyone was OK.

I assisted my former business partner in the investigation of the collapse of the roof of a Sears Store in a mall in St. John, Newfoundland in the '80's. That one had a reason....high snow load and some fabrication problems with the open web joists. It also had some warning...the ceiling tiles started to droop, then a pop was heard....the security people cleared the store in less than 5 minutes and as the security guard was opening the door to leave as the final person there, the roof caved in. He was thrown through the doors but not injured.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
...from Reuters, "Four people are injured as the roof of a shopping mall in Canada caves in. Paul Chapman reports. "

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

I do not use hollow core for exposed conditions. Its superb for interior spaces (hotels, apartments, offices) but for garages, and roof conditions it poses a problem for tracking down leaks. I prefer solid plank for those applications.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

In any case the deficient designs I refer to come from customary practice of tight support, this coming from required economies as historically mandated directly by the owner or as an effect of greed and cut throating competition.

So I am not specifically blaming designers, but what in my understanding has sometimes become sanctified practice of too little support or restraint. Even if hidden by the technics, it is our work to find sound structural proportions able to once and for all bar these failures that sparsely occur.

The failure being at an end, it suggest a support failure.

I am also wary of ANY "1 million dollars" or whatever reform. It is also well proven that lot of times reforms damage the structural systems and then it has not been corrossion but -who knows if criminal- negligence by some party what has caused the failure.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

ishvaaag,
To start off on a discussion about a failure as though it is possibly due to negligence on the engineers behalf does nothing for the engineers as a group. Sure you can say this is something your aware of with about this construction, but lets be realistic, you have never been to site, you are working off one or two photos and a few reports. You really have no idea about the building at all in regards to structure, foundations ect. I think it is self destroying as an engineer to start the discussion as thou the engineer is as fault. I think it would be better to start with a more open mind and realistic review of the situation.

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Hard to reliably tell from the photos, but it does look like there is corrosion at the beam connection. Not surprising since the collapsed roof was used for parking and I would expect corrosion due to the de-icing chemicals tracked into the garage, if the waterproofing membrane was leaking over a long period of time and not repaired. Newspaper reports talk about mall occupant complaints about leakage. The rate of corrosion increases with increasing temperature so the recent spate of very hot weather may have hastened the failure if it was corrosion related.

Really drives home the tremendous responsibilities on structural engineers when designing and trying to convince owners that inspection, maintenance and repair is required over the life of a parking garage. It has never seemed right to me that the owner, who may have not more than a grade 9 education, can make the decision of whether or not to carry out the engineer's repair recommendations, even though the public safety is at stake.

Although I would not use precast hollow core slabs for parking garages, I think it would be incorrect to conclude at this stage that there was a design error.

Very sad and tragic that they have had to discontinue the search because the structure is deemed unsafe, even though they hear tapping from the rubble.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Frankly, the loss of these people allows for my insistence. I don't blame any party in particular of the toll, nor I am starting any discussion leading to blaming engineers for failures in buildings, people in general has seen the connection even from Hammurabi times when the case is, so please, I am simply remarking that design of prefab structures in my view has gone too short on support. With the complex structural codes of today, one may spend too much time looking the tree and not seeing the wood.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
The BBC had initially indicated that as many as 30 people were missing. This has been reduced down to 9.

Interesting that the emergency crew is expecting the owner to provide an engineering report to safely gain access and has stopped operations because it is dangerous without this.

A couple of years back I sent a letter to the PEO (prof assn). when there was a death caused by a masonry washroom wall collapse. With the stage collapse and now this, I think it's time to send more correspondence. We are charged with safeguarding the public... and we seem to be failing.

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

I trust that we are all applying our experience and wits to a few grainy photographs as a forensic exercise, subject to future discovery. No need for anyone to get sensitive about it. If we start with the assumption that it was not an engineering failure then we really haven't taken all perspectives have we?

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
Received the following from one of the engineers in our office, "Time and time again we get told do the cheapest construction thing now as maintenance will take care of any issues in the future.

Yet time and time again we witness things falling apart because of a proven lack of maintenance."

CAB:
I haven't stated it is an engineering problem, but it likely is... either from design, materials, corrosion, or whatever.

In any event the professional associations (around the world) should be involved if there is a collapse and a member of the public is affected.

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Personally I think you should follow the evidence trails and see how the paths layout before any assumptions are made. Having been involved with many investigations of late into failed structures due to wind loadings and floods, I can tell you now that often what seems obvious reason for failure, is not quite so the case.

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

I agree with dik. I have had the same experience in my engineering career. Other than engineers, people do not appreciate or want to pay for durability in the design. The design is driven by architectural appearance and initial cost. Durability is way down the list, if it appears on the list at all. Irrespective of the cause of this collapse, there are plenty of other cases where no, or inadeqaute, attention was given to durability and then the structure became an unending and disruptive problem.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

dlk's "Time and time again..."

I eventually closed my practice rather than gypo, and went to work for a 'dark side' D-B property developer as in-house engineer. I found it's not the developers, it's the contracted A/E's and GC subcontractors! The looting!! The looting!! One structural hit us for $500,000 in fees, and said to my face, "Don't worry about the (85% design submittal marked 'For Construction'), we'll take care of 'minor' design-detailing changes by CHANGE ORDER." Not for $500,000 in design fees we won't!!!

I found at least 20 lapses, a total lack of detailing, but all they'd give us to review with was the bulk computer printout, yet they were able to get a construction permit from the City B.O. with that 'engineering submittal'!! So we had to pay them for 'construction ready plans', then fire them from the CM portion of the project, ...but sure enough, we had to BUY OUT their CM contract portion.

Then GC subcontractor CO gouging ... O...M...G~! In the historical accounts of the Mortgage.Con, when we sit by the fire, nobody will ever know how many lives were saved from shoddy D-B gypos by that 'untimely' end to the Great R/E Bubble. I would never buy any property built in the 2000s.

Now it looks like a whole generation of graduating engineers will be lost.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

BliMan, I am having a difficult time figuring out all your acronyms. Would it be asking too much for you to take the trouble to type out what exactly you mean?

BA

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

I got lost in the acronyms too.

What are "gypos"?

I think I decoded these:

OMG = oh my god
CO - change order
CM = construction management
D-B = design-build
GC = general contractor

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

My translation of "gypo" would be "one who gyps". BliMan's experience may be extreme, but I think we have all seen enough shoddy work to know that the construction industry, including the design side, has a lot of problems.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

My experience with good GCs (general contractors) is that they are more concerned with providing a good final product than the design teams.
There are many exceptions, but a lot of A-E (architecture-engineering) firms are more concerned with the monthly (not even yearly) profit than doing the design correctly. Many have the attitude that "the contractor can figure it out."
At my last company, there was a known issue with the drainage plans. Instead of fixing it on the design budget, they ignored it until construction so it could be fixed as part of the construction management budget. It cost the client over a million dollars in change orders. I have no idea how much of the money was recouped from the design firm, since I had left the company by then.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Having worn a few hats in the past 30 years, including GC, DB, and consultant (I didn't see a catchy acronym for that one) I think that like most things in life, it really always boils down to the individuals you are working with, not the acronym. There are good & bad builders, (design or bid), and there are good & bad designers & detailers. There are also always the extenuating circumstances: did the guy with the chequebook not understand construction & cut someone else off at the knees somewhere in the process? We don't know the details & likely never will so we just have to try & be sure we're not the ones everyone is talking about next year.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

My experience over the last 48 years is that the worst of the structural engineering profession has got worse. Dumbed down by the use of computers. It used to be only the best survived as good and adept designers. Now anyone can be a structural engineer it seems, if he can wield a computer, irrespective of how well he understandss what comes out of the computer, whether he knows how to do the calculation manully or whether he recognizes when the answer is wrong. Of course there are still good structural engineers around.

We used to have a company president who refused to allow the use of abbriviations on the drawings. He never succeeded at that, but it was a good sentiment. How much time have people spent trying to decipher abbreviations, and how much time was really saved by not writing the full word?

By the way, not all of Bliman's words are really acronyms...I think many of them are abbreviations. Abbreviations are not the same as acronyms. I think that acronyms are generally pronounceable and each letter stands for a word. For example, NATO is an acronym; CO is an abbreviation.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
It likely has to do with competition within the profession... we are doing more and more for less and less... something has to give.

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Quote:

One structural hit us for $500,000 in fees

Sounds like someone didn't require the structural engineer to define a scope and fee in a contract. So who's to blame for that?

I wish I could "hit" someone with a $500k fee but that isn't reality in my neck of the woods.



RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Quote (Quote from one of the links above...)

Several Elliot Lake residents the Globe contacted, including mall employees, spoke about the mall’s persistently leaky ceilings and said they felt the building was dangerous long before Saturday’s collapse.

A few others describe years of water leakage.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
It gets more interesting, "A former manager of the Elliot Lake, Ont., mall says the owner was warned as far back as 2008 that if he didn’t make repairs to the mall roof it could collapse.

Brian England says he was with Bob Nazarian, the 66-year-old Richmond Hill businessman who owns the mall, when Nazarian was told of the consequences of not doing repair work to the mall’s roof.

“The architect plain and simply told Mr. Nazarian that if he didn’t proceed with these repairs,” said England, “that we could find that his structure was at the point of deterioration that it possibly could collapse."

Negligent Homicide, anyone?

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Sounds like it.

And does not sound like an engineer failed. But I agree with other posts above - don't speculate too much. Wait for the investigation/reports.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

I would agree that we must wait...if reports are forthcoming. Most times, they are not. They get tied up in litigation and aren't released, thus preventing lessons from being learned. I think I will just continue to speculate, provided at least part of a story is out there. In this case, not much information about the structure seems to be available.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

JAE:

In 1980, the fee for Columbia Center in Seattle was 900K - a 76 story high rise. Bound to be a touch more today. Just thought you'd like to know... worm

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

This was an old building. Plenty of warning that things were wrong. Nobody did anything. A sad story of how a piece of faulty infrastructure can have a devastating effect on a small community.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/112923-elliot...

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Sorry Hokie but that story while it told a tale or two, was very poorly researched and was filled with more hear say than my gamma' morning tea's at the local lifeline.

my favorite part is,

"Major national chains, such as Zellers, apparently ignored the warning signs. So did the federal government, which had a Service Canada office there, as did the local MP and the local member of the provincial legislature.

Significantly, one of the mall’s anchor tenants, the Bank of Nova Scotia, moved out a few months ago. Previously the bank had ripped out the drywall because of mould and was down to concrete floors and walls.

Yet no one made the tough call to shut down the mall. Inspectors from the Ministry of Labour checked out the mall on a regular basis — six times in the past three years — but nothing happened."

followed by

"The blame game is pointless."

While I may be the only engineer left with any faith in our profession (Yes I believe that 99% of building designed by an engineer are not going to fall on my head), I can see no reason why lay people such as the National chains, Local MP and Inspections from the ministry of labour, would even think twice that a leaking roof could lead to a collapse of the building or why they should.

Yep hind-site says otherwise, but lets get our heads out of the clouds. truth is that the owner and any professionals engaged to review the building are the only people that should have reviewed the damage, all others are not in anyway responsible.

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Yup, whenever I come across a leak in a building I think "structural collapse!"

Now the people in white coats take care of me.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

RE,
Sorry, but I thought the article was appropriate and well written. Your opinion is noted.

I don't think it is known if water intrusion contributed to the collapse, but water is the greatest enemy of buildings.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Corrosion of the prestressing strand perhaps?

BA

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
The concrete surrounding the bonded pre-tensioned strand is nearly always in compression and located on the bottom surface of the slabs, so, I would think that stand corrosion is not likely a problem. With the water conditions, it is possible, however, to freeze water in the cores.

The failure appeared to be at a support.

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

dik,
I once was asked to look at some hollow core plank - the facility manager took me through an old abandoned plant - walked a ways across a large open room and down some stairs - underneath the very floor I walked I saw that the floor was comprised of hollow core planks - most of which had spalled the entire bottom "flange" off with multiple dangling strands hanging down as much as 15 feet. And I had just walked across it. This was an interior floor - no rain but probably daily washings as it was a meat packing plant.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
JAE:

Thanks for the added info... most damaged HC planks I've seen are at the ends or as a result of the core popping because of frozen trapped water... in this instance, I suspect that damage was due to movement or corrosion at the bearing ends.

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

i didn't see any sign of a vehicle in the photographs. that would suggest that the failure occurred under pretty minimal loads.

i'm with dik on the corrosion mechanism. the steel beam at the door looks pretty bad in the photograph. can someone with more HC experience confirm the direction of the span? it looks like the failed HC panels were supported at the door but this is opposite to the direction of the remaining panels in the photograph.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
The span appears between steel beams with HC slabs sitting on the flanges, and the grout space likely centred on the web. Usually, there are dowels between the HC panels (centred and perpendicular to the steel beams) I don't see any indication of these dowels in any of the photographs.

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

While I agree that leakage of non-contaminated water does not lead me to think structural collpase, leakage of water contaminated with corrosive deicing salts certainly would lead me to believe that extensive structural damage has occurred if the leakage has been occurring for a number of years and yes IT MOST DEFINITELY WOULD MAKE ME THINK OF STRUCTURAL COLLAPSE if it is not quickly repaired, depending of course on condition survey findings. The corrosive deicing chemicals are tracked onto the roof surface from the cars. I would urge any engineers not familiar with this to read CSA S413. Hard to believe any structural engineer in Ontario is not fanilliar with this. If salt was directly applied to the roof surface as a de-icer, then it would have made things much worse.

It would be of interest to know whether or not there was water proofing traffic topping on this structure or not, and if there was proper slopes tpo drains and if the drainage piping we all clogged up. I suppose there was a membrane or it would have leaked like a sieve, but it sounds like it had gone beyond its design service life.
from day one into the occupied space below.


dik: it makes little difference whether the concrete is in compression or tension, with respect to protection of the steel. The corrosive chemicals are absorbed by the concrete and eventually penetrate to the steel, irrespective of whether there are any tension cracks or not. Sherway Gardens Mall parking structure was recently demolished; in that structure some of the strands were badly corroding at mid-span of the tees where they were in compression. What really drove this home to me was the Place Bell Canada garage in Ottawa in 1983 or so, which was heavily post-tensioned so that the yop was in compression just about everywhere and there were virtually no cracks in the top surface, yet the this had some of the most extensive corrosion of the top reinforcing bars that I have ever seen.


RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
ajk1... well aware of chloride intrusion, thanks... tensioning and density of the concrete just helps a tad... big thing is the integrity of the membrane.

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
...from the Winnipeg Free Press, "ORILLIA, Ont. - New information has led the Ontario provincial police to deem their probe of a fatal mall roof collapse in Elliot Lake a criminal investigation.

Two women were killed on June 23 when the roof of the Algo Centre Mall caved in and plummeted two floors down into the building.

The provincial police force was assisting the Ontario Chief Coroner's office in its investigation into the deaths of Doloris Perizzolo, 74, and Lucie Aylwin, 37, but "as a result of information obtained," the police said Tuesday they are now also looking into the collapse as a criminal investigation."

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Uh oh.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
It starts...

From the Globe and Mail, "A class-action lawsuit has been launched in relation to the fatal Elliot Lake mall collapse, according to a press release.

The release says that specific details of the lawsuit will be released this afternoon at the Elliot Lake Hampton Inn.

A source speaking on background said that the City of Elliot Lake, the province, and the mall’s owner will be party to the suit."

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Therefore, we may never get to see reports of any investigative work.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
At the trial, the reports will probably be entered in as the records and should be available.

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Looks like they released the onigional engineering report here:

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/395566/algom...

The firm who did the report has been sighted for professional misconduct in 2010, according to reports. The PEO is said to be investigating this report, and the collapse.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
Thanks for the added info... I didn't see any dowels that are common between the HC panels and it may be that they were either cut in the caulking process by someone not aware, or possibly rusted at the HC joint, or maybe there just wasn't a picture showing them.

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Yes, I noticed that too.

It's also curious that they couldn't see the underside of a lot of the planks, due to the insulation. Seems like we may have a bearing failure here, likey the ends of the precast may have rotted out, or a beam flange went away.

This incident may have deep reprocusions in our industry, where it comes to condition assessments, and the liability we take on after.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
...from the PEO:

As part of PEO's assistance with the investigation of the Algo Centre Mall collapse, the following message is being sent to all licence holders in the province on behalf of the Ontario Province Police (OPP). Please contact the OPP directly should you have any information to provide.


Ontario Provincial Police
Criminal Investigation Branch
Criminal Investigation Services
777 Memorial Avenue
Orillia ON L3V 7V3

Thursday, July 26, 2012

Attention PEO Members:

On June 23, 2012 the roof of the Algo Mall in Elliot Lake Ontario collapsed claiming the lives of 37-year-old Lucie Aylwyn and 74-year-old Doloris Perrizzolo as well as injuring 19 other people.

The O.P.P. is investigating the cause of the collapse with the assistance of members of the PEO, who are conducting the forensic analysis of the building from an engineering perspective.

Our investigation to date has indicated that there may well have been a number of engineering assessments done in relation to the Algo Mall, for various purposes, since it was built in 1979.

There are obvious challenges associated with identifying the engineers who have conducted these assessments over such a time span and with retrieving related information and reports. For this reason we are asking for the assistance of PEO Members to attempt to identify and speak with those who may have been professionally involved with the Algo Mall.

While this is considered a Criminal Investigation, our primary goal is to provide answers to the people of Elliot Lake and, most importantly, to the families of the victims, as to what led to this catastrophic building failure.

If you, a colleague or your company has conducted an engineering assessment of any kind at the Algo Mall, or if you feel that you may be in a position to assist, please call the tip line at:

705-849-7246 or by email: OPPELLIOTLAKE.ALGOMALL@ontario.ca

Any information provided will be treated with the utmost regard and attentiveness to the sensitivity of its nature.

I sincerely thank you for any assistance in this matter.

Detective Inspector K.M. (Mike) Bickerton
Ontario Provincial Police

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

From that Toronto Star article - a key sentence:

Quote:

What’s not clear is if any structural issues could have been detected by these visual inspections, or if more was or could have been done to test structural integrity.

What is everyone's perspective on this? I know that we are often times hired to perform "visual" investigations of structures and we write reports outlining what we can visually see - if there are any visible distresses, cracks, flaws, etc.

Are we as structural engineers required to, or "allowed" to stop at visual examinations? Is our pledge to protect the public safety and welfare something that would compel us to recommend to an owner to do more tests, load tests, material tests, local destructive demo to open more lines of visibility?

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
S&B... good link...

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Quote (JAE)

What is everyone's perspective on this? I know that we are often times hired to perform "visual" investigations of structures and we write reports outlining what we can visually see - if there are any visible distresses, cracks, flaws, etc.

I'm interested in this deliberation too. The question is even more difficult with shear failures like this one that may be sudden and experience minimal prior displacement. It's enough to give you cold sweats if you try to imagine a scenario where there are no warning signs if there is such a thing. The Hyatt Regency might have been close from a third party condition assessment point of view.

Aside from any standards that may apply, I foster a "follow your nose" instinct. Based on what little we think we know so far, this one stinks enough that an engineering survey that started out as visual should have long ago escalated into something more exploratory, so I say. Thirty plus years of documented leaks coupled with a steel frame under a winter parking lot over a food court would make you curious at the least I think. Add some quick span and bearing checks, pull back some insulation, probe or sound the steel and I have difficulty believing you wouldn't be worried by that point.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

"Are we as structural engineers required to, or "allowed" to stop at visual examinations?"

YES. If the scope requires a visual then you provide a visual, and recommend further investigation as required from problems found from the investigation.

I don't subscribe to idea that as structural engineers we should go beyond our scopes in the name of good faith and NOT be paid for it.

http://www.nceng.com.au/
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

There is another current thread about this subject:
thread507-327024: guidelines for conducting structural assessments of exisiting buildings

During my practicing years, I avoided this type of work unless the client wanted me to look at a specific problem.

Usually the client wanted an engineering report to present to his bank for mortgage purposes and was not prepared to pay for a thorough engineering review.

The potential liability was the thing that scared me, so I tried to avoid that type of project.

BA

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

rowingengineer - I understand the idea of following your scope and getting paid for what you do.

My question is more in line with - once the scope is completed, you've provided the services contracted for, and yet the visible things you've seen maybe suggest to you that there might be "more to the story", don't we have an obligation to recommend to the client that further study (i.e. more scope) might be necessary?

I'm not saying that I personally would be doing the additional work as the testing or methods might be beyond my expertise. It just seems that we have a moral, and engineering ethical duty to push for more study if we suspect danger.

That is the essence of the collapse story referred to above. Numerous engineers wrote reports over time. It seems to me that the engineers who stopped at their "scope" and just wrote a report, would be more likely to get sued than the engineer who wrote a report and then recommended further study. Sort of putting the monkey on the back of the owner instead of leaving the perspective that the engineer didn't go far enough in their study, or didn't bother to really look at the problems.

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

Just to clarify, I wasn't speaking of doing something for nothing or providing engineering services beyond the client's scope.

I was contemplating an inspection that started out as visual; then, because of circumstances and observations or engineering instinct, resulted in the delivery of written recommendations to the client for further exploratory work. That is the engineer's professional and ethical responsibility barring some clear threat to life safety. If the engineer's judgement is overruled then in most jurisdictions that should start another ball rolling which ensures that the recommendation is not ignored.


RE: Partial Mall Collapse

(OP)
I was just thinking that the OPP appeal through the PEO may mean that the Mall Owner may not be cooperating with the investigation...

Dik

RE: Partial Mall Collapse

I would absolutely recommend to the client that further investigations be done. Make it clear that there could be significant problems and potential life safety concerns.

Obviously if they're not willing to pay you or anyone else to do it, then there's really not a whole lot to be done beyond that. If you're absolutely sure, could report to building department I suppose.

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