Design Engineers Competency? 6

[dantalbot]

My Names Dan, I'm a Civil Engineer. In the UK we have construction design and managemnet regulations, which look at the competency of civil engineers. for example how is this assessed. Im specifically looking at the USA and France regulations. will anyone be able to help point me in the right direction for the USA or france regulations especially looking into design engineers competency.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

We need a degree in Engineering from an ABET accredited university, pass the EIT or FE Exam(same thing), four years of "apprenteship", at least four recommendations from PEs and then an 8 hour PE test.

All that done - and you can call yourself a PE (Professional Engineer) and sign and seal any project that through training or experience you fell capable.

Go to NCEES.org or .com and find all the details. I may have missed something!!!

 

[BigInch]

I was doing some research on that topic myself a couple of months ago and the best, really only information I found was from UK.

I don't think there are specific regulations in the US concerning competency, however there may be individual company policies and professional societies that address competency matricies of various kinds "privately", such as what SPE is suggesting here,

http://www.spe.org/training/competency.php

I did not find much else. NASA had the best overall, but still seems voluntary, stopping short of regulatory requirements.

http://www.nasa.gov/offices/oce/appel/pm-development/pm_se_competency_framework.html

The Professional Engineer criteria in the US is not (or was not at the time I went through the process) formalized towards either meeting a criteria for a wide general engineering branch, nor meeting any particular engineering competency skill completion matrix, but just generally confirms that the experience you had up until that point could be verified by other professional engineers as generally good enough verified professional experience to do pretty much anything that you think you are qualified to work on thereafter.

In the US, I think regulatory competency checks generally stop with testing for drug use.


From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."

 

[gbam]

I am not sure currently; but, the accreditation requirement was not in place nor was it required when I graduated from college and sat for my PE exam. My degree is not ABET accredited; however, I had to obtain an additional 2-years experience before I could sit for the PE exam. They only gave me 2-years of experience for my school.

 

[bank]

When I was in college somebody decided that the engineering curriculums were too technical. In Civil Engineering they added three additional semesters of English, two or three "cultural herritage" electives, and gave you a choice among many subjects that used to be mandatory. I am seeing the result in the quality of graduates coming out now.

They are coming out now not knowing how to do anything; get an entry level job somewhere for a few years; get a few "friends in the business" to vouch for them on SERs; then cram for the exam, maybe passing it on their second or third attempt. Then they come back to the job with their chests stuck out calling themselves Professional Engineers, but still not knowing how to do ANYTHING.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the people filling out the SERs could be held accountable if engineers they vouched for were ultimately determined to be incompetent?

 

[rconner]

In addition to what is required per the good answer of MiketheEngineer, I believe many states in the USA also require a certain number of hours of "qualifying" Continuing(ous) Education units/or PDH's(with some allowing some surplus to be carried over) per year, as well as some sort of formal affirmation of good standing/eligibility to maintain ones license.

 

[BigInch]

I think what dantalbot is looking for is something more specific on a per task basis, such as a qualification gaging if a structural engineer is actually capable of designing pipe racks, or boat landings for an offshore platform, or a 5000 HP compressor foundation. There is a movement in the international circles now to actually "mission qualify" individuals, rather than accept a general qualification similar to what a PE license, or Chartered Engineer signifies. The other side is that much of the world lacks "Chartered" and "Professional" registrations for engineers of any kind, so there is a rather large gap in determining.. and even greater in proving, who's actually qualified to do something and who's not qualified at all to do anything. Filling in the "competency matrix" is one way to gather and present the evidence.

From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."

 

[brandonbw]

California also has an extra test for the seismic/earthquake requirement to get your PE. I think Florida has similar but its for Hurricanes. Once you get your stamp in California you can get your license in most other states by taking an ethics test. Whereas a state without the seismic portion you have to take that to get your PE in California.

There are also some grandfathered in stamps from the older school that can also sign off on surveys. I think this was from the early 80's when the change happened.

To sit for the PE you need a certain amount of years of experience or first get your degree and pass the EIT/FE. That's why a lot of people seem to wait to take the PE so they qualify to skip the EIT/FE portion.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer

http://bwengr.com

 

[Nowaday]

Also by being honest, I must say that the civil engineering profession is so broad and therefore is more specialised here in U.S. For concentration in environmental, project management,and transportation, requirements are not more extrem. But for structural analysis and geothechnical/foundation engineering, a PE, SE or at least a EIT is needed. And with these last two, it is wise to like and have a strong base in algebra, geometry and trig since high school and at bachelor degre level. also civil engineering requirements get more harsh when comes about earthquake engineering, structural analysis of coastal, marine and off shore structures.

 

[rconner]

While I guess all manner of diplomas, exams, and certifications may be required, and who knows maybe authorities or governments "picking winners and losers" at some point, perhaps what is most persuasive in a practical sense is a resume' or stable of predominantly satisfied clients in the specialized fields!

 

[stanier]

In the piping discipline ASME B31.3 sets out the criteria for a designer. Do the civil engineering standards have such competency requirements?

"Sharing knowledge is the way to immortality"
His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

http://waterhammer.hopout.com.au/

 

[BigInch]

No. It's like pass the seismic test and you can do seismic anything, from a house of cards to a nuc plant.

From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."

 

[dantalbot]

Brilliant information, what it seems to me is that before you can be classed as a engineer in the states you need to go through what seems at least 8 years training and hands on work. in the UK everyone with a degree can be classed as an engineer. but we don't have to go for the chartered status as it seems you need to in the states. this is why i believe we have the regulations regarding competence in the UK and you don't have them there. as you need to be competent to be classed as a engineer. but in the UK this isn't the case.

If you would like more information on the UK guide heres a link.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/cdm/session7.PPT

 

[BigInch]

Stanier,

No. It's left up to the judgement of the PE to determine what s/he is qualified to do or not. As B31.3 lists its experience requirements, supposedly a licensed PE would adhere to those prerequisites. A P.E. would be subject to a complaint, hearing with the state engineering license board and a possible loss of licensure, a malpractice suit in civil court, or even criminal malpractice and prossecution, in the event of serious mishap.

dantalbot, Yes it is the same state boards that oversee PE licensure and subsequent practice. An engineer, or an engineering company, must have a license to practice as an engineer, a company by virtue of having a licensed engineer qualified in the discipline(s) they work in as a member of their staff. Certain projects, especially those falling somewhere within the public domain, federal, state and local government sponsored projects, although that is extended by further requlation into many private sectors, are mandated by law to allow only PEs to certify the validity of any engineering work carried out for them.

From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."

 

[cvg]

it's not just left up to the engineer to decide. Clients decide by using there pocketbooks and managers decide when they hire or staff a project. In extreme cases, licensing boards or judges may decide how competent an engineers is based on complaints. In addition, the engineering societies also place an emphasis through the codes of ethics. The ASCE and ASME codes are linked below.

http://www.asce.org/Content.aspx?id=7231

http://files.asme.org/ASMEORG/Governance/3675.pdf

 

[ukengineer58]

i have to disagree dan. there are no competency requirments you describe as i see it. CDM places some requirements that clients only appoint competeant engineers but how do they do this if they are not experts. some require chartered engineer sign off for this purpose. In uk anyone can pick up a calculator and design anything. The uk system is weak, much weaker in my opinion than US. Part of the reason our salaries are so low.

 

[BigInch]

I thought the only thing you needed to have to be a UK engineer was a screwdriver. Just kidding, but I think you must admit it's pretty close to true.

From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."

 

[bridgebuster]

@dantalbot - ASCE has nine engineering grades and publishes a "job description" for each. They're somewhat vague but it might give you a feel for what makes a competent engineer at a particular point in time.

 

[stanier]

Australia, apart from Queensland is no better than the UK. When the Institution of Engineers of Australia made representation to government concerning this matter the response was " It would be a restraint of trade to require engineers to design everything". So its fine for lawyers, accountants, doctors, roof plumbers and drainers, painters etc etc. to be regulated but NOT engineers.

However things are changing with the harmonisation of OH & S laws between the states. Now the engineer is in the firing line. Managers can hide behind the "I dont know about that its technical" defence. So engineers have to get a back bone from other than KMart and stand up to management in matters technical. Some interesting times a ahead but guaranteed to fill the lawyers pockets and make engineers even poorer.

"Sharing knowledge is the way to immortality"
His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

http://waterhammer.hopout.com.au/

 

[dantalbot]

to ukengineer58 - totally agree our system is weak compared to the US. But also you say that a client will get a chartered engineer to sign off another engineer as competent. In the US to class your self as a Professional Engineer it is the same as been chartered in the UK. Only problem in the UK is you don't need to be chartered, were as in the US you do. This i believe is the reason we have so many incompetent engineers and the need for the amount of emphasis in the CDM regs.

Im born and bread from Newcastle upon Tyne in the North east but even i have to admit the Americans have it right.

BigInch I'm sad to say its true. gutted.