Defining a "Professional" 12

[ThePunisher]

We engineers, including doctors, accountants, teachers, and like, are considered professionals by virtue of our a) educational attainment which requires a body of knowledge obtained from years of study, b) have the work scope of analyzing and making reasoned judgment based on the application of these body of knowledge, c) follow professional ethics in the execution of our work, c) work with dignity, specialized knowledge not easily understood by other profession and (d) technically autonomous.

I have encountered lately some Trades folks, specifically electrical site foremen who are experienced and licensed electricians who are trying to get public clamour that they too should be considered as "professionals" and made themselves with the justification there are also titles like "professional" drivers whose licenses are "regulated". I have exhausted explaining the "professional" definition but it seems they use the term "professional drivers" as reference.

I am not that stupid to fall for it but I was wondering if someone in this forum have a better way of explaining it.

I am not supposed to take this seriously until these group of folks are already going to the level of clamoring such call to the professional regulating body in our country, as we are insisting that they should be regulated by the agency handling "trades" instead.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

In my mind the grey area between professional and trades comes down to the mental work required vs the physical work. If a licensed electrician or licensed plumber works to design the electrical or plumbing for a job and also installs it then they are a professional in my mind.

Also, you have (c) listed twice.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer.
(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)

 

[berkshire]

Remember Noah's ARK was built by an amateur,
The Titanic was built by professionals.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

 

[IRstuff]

The Titanic was designed by a professional, who died in the voyage, and built by trades people.
The Ark was designed and built by the same guy, so he's a professional ;-) G*d only gave the operational requirements.

TTFN
faq731-376

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

 

[SNORGY]

ThePunisher:

See attached thread involving similar issue(s).

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=374748

 

[moltenmetal]

A "professional" merely distinguishes someone who does work for hire from someone who does work for the love of it alone, without regard for compensation who is called an amateur. Regrettably, some "professional" bosses use "professionalism" as a whip to extract uncompensated work from their professional underlings, which by my definition is fundamentally UNprofessional!

What you're asking really is what defines a "regulated professional". A regulated professional is someone who practices a profession which meets two criteria: a) its practice affects the public health, safety or welfare and/or the security of their property against substantial loss, and b) the practice thereof is held in sufficient public regard that laws and regulations are put in place to mandate the requirement for a license with conditions related to who is qualified to practice this profession

Regulation/licensure requirements vary greatly by jurisdiction. Most engineers in the US are not regulated professionals. The only person determining whether or not most of them are fit and qualified to practice is their boss- or perhaps their boss's insurance provider. In contrast, most engineers practicing ENGINEERING in Canada are regulated professionals. Not all, but most. The vast majority of unlicensed engineering grads in Canada, which amount to somewhere near 75% of engineering grads, are NOT practicing engineering- because only about 30% of engineering grads here actually practice engineering.

Not everyone who has a license is a regulated professional. The public grants licenses and permits for lots of things- marriage, use of public space, selling goods etc. The licenses gather fees and confer legal requirements but are not necessarily associated with a practice carried out for hire that involves a public protection function. That begs the question: if a proprietor of a bar requires a liquor license, are they a regulated professional? By that definition, indeed they are!

What distinguishes a regulated/licensed trade from a traditional profession? The latter implies more significant educational requirements and intellectual activity than on manual practice, which the OP has articulated well. The distinction between an engineer or architect and an ironworker, welder or pipefitter is pretty clear along those lines. But you have to be careful there: a nurse will likely slug you one if you call their profession a trade!

Mushy stuff, for sure, and open to abuse in both directions. Here, interior designers were trying to obtain regulated professional status, requiring a license. Yet anyone here can call themselves a "builder" or a "contractor", with zero licensing requirement.

 

[TheTick]

It's juvenile to try to "Websterize" this by choosing a different definition of the word. In this case, a professional is one who engages in a recognized profession.

 

[urgross]

That sure is confusing. Is a prostitute considered a professional, especially if they are good with their hands? If someonee engages in the same activities as a prostitute not considered a professional unless they get paid?

 

[moltenmetal]

TheTick- I'd call that a self-referential definition. A professional is a person who practices a profession. What defines a profession? What people "recognize" as a profession. Not all that helpful.

The dividing line between a regulated profession and a regulated trade is a serious issue and one which is being blurred daily.

 

[SNORGY]

I *COULD* say...

"One prerequisite for "profession" = minimum of a specific, relevant, recognized bachelor's degree from an accredited university

One prerequisite for "tradesperson" = diploma from a trade school"

But I know better than to suggest something like that.

So I won't.

 

[btrueblood]

I have to agree with molten. A pro gets paid for work, as opposed to a volunteer or amateur. Professional football players, professional plumbers, professional engineers (with or without a license, though the capitalization of the term can change depending), and yes, sex professionals. Sorry, but doing it for hire means just that. Get over yourself.

 

[SNORGY]

I think we are all falling into the trap of first attaching a definition to a word given certain constraints imposed by the context, then altering the context to discredit the original definition.

I'm a farmer. I can have a cow. So, define "cow".

 

[drawoh]

We engineers, including doctors, accountants, teachers, and like, are considered professionals...

Are we talking here about the legal title "professional engineer", or is this about professionals in general? There is no title "professional teacher" that I am aware of. If the electrician keeps up and expands his training, works hard and makes a point of doing high quality work, I would call him (or her) a professional. If urgross' prostitute provides value for the money, and refrains from writing memoirs identifying her clients by name, I would call that professional.

--
JHG

 

[SNORGY]

Pretty much my point. The definition is not in the word, it's in the context surrounding the word.

I am of the opinion that, within the context specified by the OP, tradespersons are not professionals.

 

[berkshire]

Whilst within the context provided by the OP Trades persons may not be professionals according to a poster on another forum neither are engineers.

OK, here is the answer. Please ignore most of what the others have said, because they are wrong. A professional does not "do it for the money." He/she does it because he/she belongs to one of the three professions. And to responder "ev," it is not a matter of your opinion. It is a matter of definition that goes back several thousand years.

1. An "amateur" (from the Latin "amo" = "I love") is someone who does something because he/she loves to do it. I sing barbershop music. It is for amateurs...that is, people who love to sing the close harmonies of this form of a Capella music.

2. There are a number of words to describe what one does "for a living" or "for the money." The word professional is NOT one of those words! (Think "trade," or "Craft" or "occupation" etc.)

3. There are THREE, and ONLY three, professions: (a) Law (b) Clergy (c) Medicine. A professional is one who belongs to one or more of these three classic professions.

Professions are distinguished by having a complete and definite body of knowledge and specialized terms, standards by which someone can be a member of the profession or NOT be admitted to the profession, and a process of education, examinations, and similar procedures to test an individual's readiness or qualification to be a member of that profession.

By the way, don't bother with the Wikipedia site; it is wrong.

To summarize: An amateur does something because he /she loves it. Various people belong to a trade-group, a craft, a vocation, etc. and if they make money from it they are not amateurs, but they are not professionals either.

A professional is a lawyer/attorney/judge, a doctor/surgeon/ physician, nurse, psyichiatrist, psychologist, or a clergy person: minister/priest/rabbi). There is no such thing as a "professional athlete," a "professional teacher," or a "professional" garbage man, house painter, or auto mechanic.

Those of us who ARE professionals (I am medical as psychologist, and clergy as ordained UCC minister) are not happy when we get lumped together with "the professional house painter" or the "professional cook." (And by the way: Prostitution is NOT the "oldest profession." It is not a profession at all.)

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You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

 

[SNORGY]

ThePunisher:

How do you like the discussion so far?

 

[SNORGY]

This link seems relevant...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14987179

Maybe it would be just as well to remove "engineering" from being a subset of "professions" and just call it "Engineering", an exclusive set that is neither a subset nor a parent set of anything else, and then agree to a definition of *that*. I maintain that the reason we can't even do *that* is because we, as engineers (whatever that means), have historically and progressively cheapened our own self-worth to the point that we are prepared to let anyone do what we do (whatever that is), without summoning the collective courage or any semblance of guts to stand up for ourselves by agreeing on the definition, defending the right to title, and standing up for ourselves.

Because of that, sadly, if there ever does come into existence a FOURTH profession, it is likely to be an MBA before an "Engineer".

 

[glass99]

I would think of the language root of "professional" as "professor". Professionals are applied intellectuals. We are professors in practice. One important related aspect to this is we professionals are expected to be using our intellectual tools to be making decisions about how the rest of the world should conduct its business. This is also critically different to just being a boss who tells the world how to conduct its business, but does so based on their social power rather than intellectual prestige.

Language is a fluid thing, and people do know what you mean when you say "professional" football player. It means a football player who has reached a high level of sports excellence and who gets paid for it. There is no way that linguistic toothpaste is going back into the tube.

 

[CELinOttawa]

It is a bit passé to argue that there are only three professions... It is the equivalent of arguing that we should all be working in Latin. Technology was not sufficiently advanced at the time to include much else in the way of knowledge-dedicated works, but if we want to be reaching that far back, there is no need to stop short. A mere dozen or so hundred more years and we get to antiquity where the Egyptians and others had self-regulating engineering bodies.

More to the point, the most valid current-day definition of profession I have seen is "A self-regulating group applying specialised knowledge for the betterment of society, whether at the individual and group level". I couldn't find the original, so that's my ham-handed paraphrase. I do, however, believe that it is the only valid current definition.

 

[urgross]

Maybe, like berkshire, we should start with the premise that everyone but our own self is wrong. I would say he is wrong, as their is one trade that is called the "oldest profession". For the most part, based on experience, I see little difference between the "oldest rpofession" and lawyers. Well, even the "oldest profession" has some standards, I guess I'm wrong, too.