Engineer?
Engineer?
(OP)
Nearly every time I get into a career/job conversation with a few of my friends I find it interesting how they hold so tightly onto job title definitions that have nothing or little to do with engineering. They didn't go to engineering school, they don't know how to solve even the most basic static force system (in any engineering discipline), can't revolve a vector into components, etc. etc... Yet, they are continually offended that I make the claim that their title should be stripped of containing the word "engineer".
Is this an issue worth defending? If "yes", what is the most sound way to argue the point?

Is this an issue worth defending? If "yes", what is the most sound way to argue the point?






RE: Engineer?
Is this a chat over a few beers with buddies, or is there some sort of office politics involved? How badly do you want these people to be your friends? What sort of authority is coming to them through their use of the word "engineer"?
--
JHG
RE: Engineer?
If you don't believe me:
thread730-181246: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK
thread731-180126: UK Engineers Petition Downing Street
thread730-28395: Who Owns The Phrase "Engineer"?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineer?
drawoh: They are good friends discussing over a beer, and they are MCSE people.
RE: Engineer?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
- Steve
RE: Engineer?
In others, particularly Scotty's UK, the term is liberally applied to repairmen...hence Scotty's upgrade to surgeon.
RE: Engineer?
mind you, do lawyers/accountants have similar complaints of some of their fraternity ?
another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
RE: Engineer?
I like the photo of that "Engineer", CheckerHater. His look of "gotcha" is great.
Maybe I will change my title to "Building Chiropractor"
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
If you are selling services then it is a different matter.
The guy that did my new septic system says that he provides engineering and design, and yes he is a PE Civil and a damn good dozer operator. If he wasn't a PE in the state where he operated:
1. He wouldn't be insured (either none or voided because he misrepresented himself)
2. The state board would sue him
3. the county wouldn't issue a permit, they don't don't require an engineer for this work, but if say that you are then you had better be.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Plymouth Tube
RE: Engineer?
https://www.rugdoctor.com/
http://www.drroof.com/
http://www.plumbingdoctoronline.com/
etc etc.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
To do otherwise only serves to cheapen ourselves and perpetuate the cancer that is destroying this profession.
Why do we continue to put up with what others don't?
You teach people how to treat you. What are we teaching the public about us if we roll over and let them have their way with our title?
We may as well not even bother going to university - unless it's to get an MBA or something.
RE: Engineer?
Something the public is more likely to be concerned about, and yet still happens.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineer?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineer?
Snorgy,
The question for me is how do I explain that in a respectful manner to my friends who are MCSE and the like? I certainly feel similar feelings at times, as you expressed. But, they won't respect my opinion if I am perceived to be pooping on their profession/abilities.
RE: Engineer?
True - very true - even our Association locally here could never define it. Yet, somehow, universities seem pretty comfortable with being able to define the curriculum that leads to the degree.
I'd be happy with a definition that starts with that: a person having a degree in engineering from an accredited institution.
No DEGREE, no ENGINEER.
Pretty simple in my books.
I am sorry I come across, to some at least, as so passionate about this, but the industry (at least the one in which I work) is rampant with unqualified clowns running the show and doing reckless, ignorant and just plain stupid things - just because our laws are too "inclusive" and "tolerant". It's nothing short of blasphemy.
RE: Engineer?
1. Engineering Degree approved by ABET?
2. ?
3. ?
.
.
.
99. ?
RE: Engineer?
If you stop at (1.) and do / state nothing else, that would solve a lot.
It really is, or can be, that simple.
RE: Engineer?
As I've said before some of the best engineers I've ever worked with did not have a degree. They'd gone the apprenticeship route back in the day with city and guilds qualifications etc. and decades of experience.
Some of the worst 'engineers' I've had to deal with not only had a degree in engineering but the equivalent of 'Professional Engineer' status.
Now there may be an argument that I'm referencing anecdotes not data, and that they are isolated cases or that true engineers that went through apprenticeships are a dying breed... but I'll need some convincing.
Additionally many of the gread engineers of yesteryear didn't necessarily go the degree route etc.
thread730-152809: Definition of an Engineer was one previous effort - search functionality seems to be playing up or I'd give more.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineer?
If you stop at (1. Engineering Degree approved by ABET?) and do / state nothing else, that would solve a lot.
Then you do not think that a national/state test is required to be an engineer?
Because if a test is required than anybody should be allowed to take it, after meeting some minimum requirements.
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Engineer?
Guys and gals, understand that I see the world through glasses that are tinted to a shade reflective of my own biases.
You haven't lived until a non-engineer steals your credentials and masquerades as "you", since she / he has none of her / his own, and lived through the damage that THAT causes.
RE: Engineer?
It would be nice if the careers advice people in schools knew where an obsession with STEM subjects might take an unusually brainy and introverted kid.
- Steve
RE: Engineer?
"You haven't lived until a non-engineer steals your credentials and masquerades as "you", since she / he has none of her / his own, and lived through the damage that THAT causes."
How is having a degree going to stop someone from stealing your credentials?
The only thing that can help is having your picture attached to your PE license on the states board of engineering. Even than you would need people to check the web site to verify that it is you.
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Engineer?
A veterinarian is not a veterinarian until he or she has a degree in veterinary medicine.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she has a degree in law.
A teacher is not a teacher until he or she has a degree in education.
Sorry, folks - in my books, an engineer isn't an engineer until he or she has a degree in engineering.
I am not saying that there aren't a bunch of smart folks who probably *could* do what engineers do; there *are*. The issue is whether or not it ought to be allowed, let alone encouraged. I personally don't believe it should be. I believe that by not restricting the title, we are only contributing towards the erosion of the profession, and that the further we allow that erosion to proceed, the more meaningless the word "engineering" will become.
RE: Engineer?
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Engineer?
"...Sorry, folks - in my books, an engineer isn't an engineer until he or she has a degree in engineering....
....I believe that by not restricting the title, we are only contributing towards the erosion of the profession, and that the further we allow that erosion to proceed, the more meaningless the word "engineering" will become."
Real funny.
Look you really look at what was required to be an engineer in the pass (at least in California) you would find that the "erosion of the profession" is occuring as the requirements to get a PE increases.
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Engineer?
We don't bother making all grads write the three ten-hour examinations. Instead we accredit programs at institutions, both locally and internationally. Your program or institution isn't on the list? Based on an interview, you are assessed one or more of those three hour exams. Some people don't think that's fair, but I do. It's certainly more efficient than making everyone write the same exam. Even if you did that, some people would think that the ones who wrote the exam fresh out of school had an unfair advantage over anyone coming in from abroad.
At that point, an immigrant engineer can obtain a provisional license- something that says to employers that they've met the criteria for licensure but lack the 1 year of mentored experience required to grant them a license. That gives employers some comfort, because at least the licensure body has some familiarity with the 2000 or so degree-granting institutions worldwide, and which ones are frauds and which ones actually give legitimate engineering degrees, whereas few if any employers could have a real command of that subject and hence would simply prefer locally-educated folks. Even if an immigrant cannot get a license, they can still get a job as an engineer under an employer who has a Certificate of Authorization (i.e. a patsy engineer willing to take "professional responsibility" for all the professional engineering work done by that firm), or an employer who is working under the so-called "industrial exemption" which still hasn't been repealed here. But in both of those cases, they have no right to the title "engineer", and if they use it they are subject to fines and other enforcement action. So they get called other things: "designer", "project manager", or just have business cards saying "B.A.Sc. mechanical engineering" (which, if factual, cannot be argued with irrespective of how disreputable the degree granting institution may be).
The reality is, we get thousands of immigrants every year who feel they have every right to practice engineering here and call themselves engineers the moment they arrive. Some of them are amongst the very best engineers in the world- and they don't have a problem obtaining a license by and large, though they may not like the process and the time it takes. Some of them couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag, which of course can be said of some local grads. Others are frauds- they have no real degree or knowledge, they are just looking to get a career here through a "Catch Me If You Can" trick.
RE: Engineer?
woodman88 (and others), I certainly mean no disrespect to you or your opinion, since I cannot speak from a position of strength about how things work in the USA or the UK, whereas you probably can.
The problem that I have with this issue, and I do believe that it occurs to varying extents on both sides of the border and on both sides of the Atlantic, is that through soft legislation and our subconscious, gracious tolerance of what we are allowing the public at large to do / say about us, we are making it far too easy for unqualified or unscrupulous individuals to short-cut the qualification process and call themselves "engineers" when they really are not worthy of the title. I know of a number of technologists (and, in fact, high school graduates) who would claim that "...we are just as good as, in fact better than, engineers because we have more hands-on practical sense..." and all the rest of that tripe. I know a great many more, by contrast, who know when things are getting to the point where what they are undertaking is better left in the hands of those with the higher - yes HIGHER - level of credentials, namely, a Professional Engineer.
I aced my fetal pig dissection and examination in high school with a perfect score. That doesn't mean I am qualified as a veterinary surgeon.
moltenmetal alludes to frauds and stops just short of opening the topic of diploma mills. I have seen one of those "engineers" first hand as well; this one was well into a 20+ year career before being found out. How does that happen? Well...it does.
In my Province, the profession is self-regulated. Therefore, the only people who can put a stop to this kind of nonsense is us - the engineers. With each passing year, I become more appalled and disenchanted with the observation that we are doing the exact opposite, and encouraging the "inclusivity" to the point where the "profession" is becoming nothing more than a growing mob of non-credentialed non-professionals. It is beyond disturbing.
Maybe we should just hand them a beaver stamp and force them to use it. That would weed out a good number of them.
RE: Engineer?
TTFN

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
RE: Engineer?
A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she has a degree in medicine.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she has a degree in law.
An engineer isn't an engineer until he or she has a degree in engineering.
isn't quite valid. A lawyer and medical doctor get a BS degree in whatever, then go to law and medical school. An engineer just requires a bachelors degree. The comparison isn't quite fair. I understand your frustration certainly, but to say someone with a BS in chemistry doesn't know enough to be a chemical engineer, or a BS in physics doesn't know enough to be a mechanical engineer, I would argue isn't so.
I like the idea of requiring a test for licensure, but allowing a broad level of education (say a 4 year science/engineering/technology degree) to sit for the exam.
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Engineer?
A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she has a degree in medicine.
A veterinarian is not a veterinarian until he or she has a degree in veterinary medicine.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she has a degree in law.
A teacher is not a teacher until he or she has a degree in education.
----------------
We know that teachers do NOT need a degree in education.
We know that lawyers do NOT need a degree in law.
Why do people make claims that are demonstrably false in order to support an argument? It doesn't help the argument if 50% or more of your examples are false.
RE: Engineer?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineer?
You are right in finding the flaw in that logic. There has to be a better way to argue the point.
RE: Engineer?
http://www.cvu-uvc.ca/HowToBecomeaTeacher.htm
Maybe there is a flaw in my logic simply because I am Canadian.
My last post. Thanks guys.
RE: Engineer?
So, two points:
> All those currently industrially exempt CEs, SEs, EEs, and MEs will become licensed and will be able to compete with the existing pool of PEs, and if anyone thinks that that their compensation is being adversely affected now, just wait until then.
> PE laws are written with "In order to safeguard life, health, property, and public welfare" as the purpose, nothing in there about protecting the profession; it's all about protecting the public. That makes dinking around with the law to do the former is inappropriate and mostly doomed to fail.
TTFN

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
well, train drivers, heavy equipment operators, steam plant operators - yep, all called "engineers". The rest of us nerds are just tag-a-longs.
US, Alaska State law, (probably the same for most states - following the model codes) engineering for hire requires a PE ticket. A university degree is not required. As I recall (that's code meaning I don't remember the exact requirements):
Degree from an accredited university, four years experience, including two years with responsible charge, FE exam (8 hours), PE exam (8 hours)
With no degree from an acredited university, 8 years(? - I think) experience, 2 years responsible charge, FE and PE exams.
If one works for the company, then they can do engineering for that company - some restrictions on public access facilities, waste water, and drinking water systems. The company can make anybody they want an engineer.
Me? PE, EA, some other alphabet soup. I design as little as I possibly can. I have no anamosity toward design engineers - without them I'd have made a lot less money.
I work with plenty of engineers who's main job is keeping track of the budget. Do they have a degree in engineering? I think most do. But so what? I think the owners would have been as well off hiring acountants - or better yet, promoted up smart bookkeepers.
And - I remind myself that I was not one bit better the day after I got my PE than I was the day before. My super power makes the money - the PE ticket just gets my foot in the door. And the regulators like the PE ticket. They think it means I know what I'm talking about - adds credulence.
As already said, when I'm showing out, I tell all I'm a grade A nerd - electrical grade A, none better ~
ice
Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction
RE: Engineer?
If they left something like the below in there, technically it's illegal and anybody who does it can be fined. I'd imagine it's rarely enforced other than people actually practicing engineering and claiming to be an engineer when they're not. And even then, probably not often. Most jurisdictions will modify their law to clarify that it only applies to unlicensed people purported to be 'professional engineers' or 'consulting engineers' or whatever. Think Illinois is like this. Looks like California is too from a brief glance. Looking at Texas's, looks like they give outs for new grads who are working under engineers (so they can have 'engineer' in their job title) so long as they are degreed from an ABET accredited institution, NASA employees, and utility companies. But don't allow people who maintain mechanical equipment (usually called 'building engineers') to use the title.
NCEES's model law states:
150.30 Grounds for Disciplinary Action
—
Unlicensed Individuals
A.
In addition to any other provisions of law, the board shall have the power to fine and recover costs
from any unlicensed individual who is found guilty of:
1.
Engaging in the practice or offer to practice of engineering or surveying in this jurisdiction without being licensed in accordance with the provisions of this Act
2.
Using or employing the words “engineer,” “engineering,” “surveyor,” “surveying,” or any modification or derivative thereof in his or her name or form of business activity except as licensed in this Act
http://cdn3.ncees.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Model_Law_2014.pdf
RE: Engineer?
some are even afraid to calc anything, because they will be responsible for that.
i has a degree, not to worry.
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
I am sorry, but nothing you have said above makes sense.
hydroman247 - you "like" to be called an engineer. That is a problem - it seems you have decided that it sounds better to call yourself that, rather than to acknowledge that you may have a tough time qualifying yourself as such. And your logic about the vagueness - I don't buy that the current status quo SHOULD be accepted as such. That is a lazy way of thinking. The point, to me, is that the word is being hijacked in so many fields for the same reason you give - they "like" to be called an engineer. Microsoft "likes" to call their people engineers, because it gives the customers a nice fuzzy feeling that they are dealing with a high caliber, qualified, and competent person. Of course the clients require and deserve those qualities - but, why does that require using the word "engineer"?
I'd "like" to be called a materials expert and a thin and in-shape guy. Call yourselves what you are, not what you want to be.
RE: Engineer?
Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.
RE: Engineer?
TTFN

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
RE: Engineer?
I have plenty of non engineer friends that use the term engineer loosely. I laugh to myself when they say it since only Architects and Engineers will make it clear if they are not licensed in conversation. I asked my partner if he wanted PE on his business card? He laughed and said no, why? If you want the title don't become an engineer. I just want to be called rich and happy.
B+W Engineering and Design | Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer http://bwengr.com
RE: Engineer?
Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.
WWW.amlinereast.com
RE: Engineer?
Your comment stinks.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
RE: Engineer?
You don't need a degree, only to be a member of the professional order recognized by the government (there is only one for each profession); although it might be difficult to be accepted without one. For engineers, when you apply for the permit, you have to use the title «Junior Engineer» for at least 2 years where you can perform activities reserved by law for engineers, but only under the immediate supervision and direction of an engineer. Then you can apply for your Enginner's permit.
What is an Engineer? Again there's a law, the Engineers Act, where it says:
RE: Engineer?
Nobody gives a monkey's.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Engineer?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
But, why is bailiff on the list? In the US, I think they're usually deputy sheriffs. I see that in Canada, they can be private companies; interesting.
TTFN

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
RE: Engineer?
When I was in school, the forest engineering students generally were the hardest partiers, great bunch to spend time with.
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
Now to convince the wife... :/
RE: Engineer?
I've stopped caring. I've known engineers who are absolute geniuses with physics and possess an ability to constantly have a visceral three dimensional consciousness of the project at hand which enables them to see any issues that may arise, before they arise. Some that know what the weak points are, and what areas don't require exhaustive calculations because they are "over built" to an extent that it's not worth worrying about (unless it is required by an authority to prove it) and all the while maintain the ability to force software to output realistic analyses while still maintaining the ability to do the work by hand to spot-check results to ensure accuracy.
I've also known people with the same on-paper qualifications (multiple degrees, managerial/senior titles) who couldn't size the main beams on a generator platform given the footprint and weight of the equipment.
I've also known people with nothing but a high school diploma who fell into the same category as my first paragraph.
I feel there are protections the public must have. However, "job titles" are not in such a realm. If someone is claiming to be an engineer in order to sell their services to an unknowing member of the public, then yes, that is unfortunate. I also believe there should be an avenue to achieve 'engineer' status legally (though not with lesser testing) without getting a degree as I believe it's an academic circle-jerking scam that denies a great percentage of the population the opportunity.
The only people I've known to get literally offended by someone claiming status of "engineer" without having a BSME/BSCE/etc, are people who are either very insecure and feel titles validate themselves, or people so elitist and vanity that it reminds me of the hoity-toity restaurant patron who would complain to management if someone wasn't wearing a necktie with their suit jacket.
_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5
RE: Engineer?
TTFN

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
RE: Engineer?
When I went from technology to engineering, the difference was huge.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
Manufacturing? In my world, that is the part engineers are not trained in!
--
JHG
RE: Engineer?
That is a false statement. Example - do you know EVERYTHING about the chemistry of steel and concrete? Hint: The answer is no.
"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
I've seen a good few proposed definitions of what is/who gets to be an engineer in my time on this site Playswow but I'm afraid to say yours is one I have have to disagree with most strongly - and that's coming from someone who's something of a contrarian on this topic.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineer?
"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."
RE: Engineer?
Though the imbeciles that take control of it after you're done will probably run it at 450% mawp, or press an old peice of equipment into service and blow it up.
Could be wrong though.
RE: Engineer?
And as you gain experience you'll realise that you won't live long enough to know everything. I know guys who've forgotten more than I'll ever know about generators. And that's supposed to be something I actually know about.
RE: Engineer?
A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she serves a residency, passes the tests and is licensed.
A veterinarian is not a veterinarian until he or she has serves a residency, passes the tests and is licensed.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she passes the bar exam and is licensed.
A teacher is not a teacher until he or she performs student teaching, passes the tests and is certified (licensed).
To be an engineer, for all practical purposes, no testing or licensing is required. That's why we do not have the respect or pay of the "true" professionals such as medical doctors, veterinarians, lawyers or teachers. They have control of their professional societies, engineers do not. Our professional societies do very little to advance the cause of engineers. ASCE, ASME IEEE, etc. are technical societies not professional societies.
RE: Engineer?
not...
Not all doctors make the big salaries; the average family doctor draws less than $200k: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2012/07...
Many engineers make that much.
TTFN

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com: http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx
RE: Engineer?
RE: Engineer?
That is a very brave comment in a thread of engineers who seem to generally agree to let it go. I don't know, havesealwilltravel. I understand what you are saying as far as the comparison to other professions, but I am beginning to understand that for many reasons, it is not worth getting worked up over. I have a feeling that it may be healthier to let it go. I do really disagree with your argument involving monetary value. I doubt owners, architects, contractors, etc. will be any more likely (in the whole) to meet larger engineering fees on the basis of being a "true" professional. I don't know what that means.
Also:
Do you know for a fact that ASCE, et al do not politic for engineers? Or is it just because you "feel" neglected, and blame those organizations?
Then consider trying to rewrite basic definitions of words, because that is what you were doing.
Someone should close this thread...
"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."
RE: Engineer?
Now you've opened this can of worms it's stuck open until there hasn't been a comment for I think it's 6 months.
As the gap between IRstuff's Dec 15th post and lacajun's Apr 11th post, it's difficult to hit the 6 months on a topic like this as you new know when a new or inactive member will come across it and want to add their 2C (not a dig lacajun by the way).
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineer?
If you don't like this thread, go read one of the 10,000 other active threads; but I bet you can't help yourself and will be back for more!
"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."
RE: Engineer?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineer?
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC