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Engineer?
30

Engineer?

Engineer?

(OP)
Nearly every time I get into a career/job conversation with a few of my friends I find it interesting how they hold so tightly onto job title definitions that have nothing or little to do with engineering. They didn't go to engineering school, they don't know how to solve even the most basic static force system (in any engineering discipline), can't revolve a vector into components, etc. etc... Yet, they are continually offended that I make the claim that their title should be stripped of containing the word "engineer".

Is this an issue worth defending? If "yes", what is the most sound way to argue the point?




 

RE: Engineer?

MacGruber22,

Is this a chat over a few beers with buddies, or is there some sort of office politics involved? How badly do you want these people to be your friends? What sort of authority is coming to them through their use of the word "engineer"?

--
JHG

RE: Engineer?

This equine has been flogged to death repeatedly, leave the poor old nag alone won't you.winky smile

deadhorse

If you don't believe me:

thread730-181246: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK
thread731-180126: UK Engineers Petition Downing Street
thread730-28395: Who Owns The Phrase "Engineer"?

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Engineer?

(OP)
Good point, KENAT.

drawoh: They are good friends discussing over a beer, and they are MCSE people.

RE: Engineer?

Well, since Microsoft says they're engineers, it must be true.

winky smile

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Engineer?

4
Doesn't bother me. Not since I became a generator surgeon. tongue

RE: Engineer?

The only people who actually give a rat's are those who know what one really is and pay you for being one. I find "engineer" is a nice generic term to hide behind in social situations. Not showing off. Not wearing my qualifications on my sleeve. If I want to show off, I call myself an "enginerd". I'm over the whole status thing.

- Steve

RE: Engineer?

In some jurisdictions, the word "engineer" means something in legal terms- most of the time, within limits, and its misuse can result in fines or worse. However, enforcement is typically lax- it relies on people getting annoyed with the misuse of term and making complaints.

In others, particularly Scotty's UK, the term is liberally applied to repairmen...hence Scotty's upgrade to surgeon.

RE: Engineer?

for us, "engineer" is "protected" by law ... but anyone who joins the "club" is allowed/permited/required? to call themsleves "engineer" even if they can't do the simplist engineering things ... but they do have a piece of paper.

mind you, do lawyers/accountants have similar complaints of some of their fraternity ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

RE: Engineer?

When my kids "learned" what an engineer was, they bugged me to come to my workplace. Dang they were disappointed to see a regular office instead of a locomotive. I never rose as high in their estimation again.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

RE: Engineer?

(OP)
I guess the lesson learned may be to look for and embrace the humor in it (at least in social situations).

I like the photo of that "Engineer", CheckerHater. His look of "gotcha" is great.

Maybe I will change my title to "Building Chiropractor"

RE: Engineer?

One of the jokers here has just suggested I use the title 'generator executioner'. cry

RE: Engineer?

Within industry they can call people what ever they like, and I have quite caring.


If you are selling services then it is a different matter.
The guy that did my new septic system says that he provides engineering and design, and yes he is a PE Civil and a damn good dozer operator. If he wasn't a PE in the state where he operated:
1. He wouldn't be insured (either none or voided because he misrepresented himself)
2. The state board would sue him
3. the county wouldn't issue a permit, they don't don't require an engineer for this work, but if say that you are then you had better be.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Plymouth Tube

RE: Engineer?

(OP)
beej67 - your post has gone over my head. What is the commonality between those services? I didn't see anything where they claimed to be engineers.

RE: Engineer?

4
Nope, sorry. It's a restricted title. It's a cause that is worth protecting and fighting aggressively for.

To do otherwise only serves to cheapen ourselves and perpetuate the cancer that is destroying this profession.

Why do we continue to put up with what others don't?

You teach people how to treat you. What are we teaching the public about us if we roll over and let them have their way with our title?

We may as well not even bother going to university - unless it's to get an MBA or something.

RE: Engineer?

(OP)
LOL! That is a lot of beaten horses. Kenat, maybe you should relieve yourself of the conversation if you think the subject is dead. I doubt anyone is forcing you to open the thread. Personally, I wanted to see some fresh takes on the situation, so forgive me if my thread seems old hat, feudal, monotonous, etc. etc.

Snorgy,

The question for me is how do I explain that in a respectful manner to my friends who are MCSE and the like? I certainly feel similar feelings at times, as you expressed. But, they won't respect my opinion if I am perceived to be pooping on their profession/abilities.

RE: Engineer?

KENAT,

True - very true - even our Association locally here could never define it. Yet, somehow, universities seem pretty comfortable with being able to define the curriculum that leads to the degree.

I'd be happy with a definition that starts with that: a person having a degree in engineering from an accredited institution.

No DEGREE, no ENGINEER.

Pretty simple in my books.

I am sorry I come across, to some at least, as so passionate about this, but the industry (at least the one in which I work) is rampant with unqualified clowns running the show and doing reckless, ignorant and just plain stupid things - just because our laws are too "inclusive" and "tolerant". It's nothing short of blasphemy.

RE: Engineer?

(OP)
Yes, the definition is paramount. So, what is the essence of an engineer (in the US)?

1. Engineering Degree approved by ABET?
2. ?
3. ?
.
.
.
99. ?

RE: Engineer?

MacGruber22,

If you stop at (1.) and do / state nothing else, that would solve a lot.

It really is, or can be, that simple.

RE: Engineer?

Well Snorty you lost me already.

As I've said before some of the best engineers I've ever worked with did not have a degree. They'd gone the apprenticeship route back in the day with city and guilds qualifications etc. and decades of experience.

Some of the worst 'engineers' I've had to deal with not only had a degree in engineering but the equivalent of 'Professional Engineer' status.

Now there may be an argument that I'm referencing anecdotes not data, and that they are isolated cases or that true engineers that went through apprenticeships are a dying breed... but I'll need some convincing.

Additionally many of the gread engineers of yesteryear didn't necessarily go the degree route etc.

thread730-152809: Definition of an Engineer was one previous effort - search functionality seems to be playing up or I'd give more.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Engineer?

SNORGY
If you stop at (1. Engineering Degree approved by ABET?) and do / state nothing else, that would solve a lot.

Then you do not think that a national/state test is required to be an engineer?

Because if a test is required than anybody should be allowed to take it, after meeting some minimum requirements.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

RE: Engineer?

It would solve A LOT ... not EVERYTHING.

Guys and gals, understand that I see the world through glasses that are tinted to a shade reflective of my own biases.

You haven't lived until a non-engineer steals your credentials and masquerades as "you", since she / he has none of her / his own, and lived through the damage that THAT causes.

RE: Engineer?

I'm a bit lost as to what kind of "status" people are after. And why. Nobody who's not a real engineer (whatever that means) is likely to steal my job. Nobody I might meet in my local boozer (or at a school reunion) cares whether I have the right degree or not to call myself an engineer. It only matters where it matters - among peers, including suppliers, employers and customers. I've given up trying to explain to my mum what I do for a living and my wife just used to refer to it as "work".

It would be nice if the careers advice people in schools knew where an obsession with STEM subjects might take an unusually brainy and introverted kid.

- Steve

RE: Engineer?

SNORGY
"You haven't lived until a non-engineer steals your credentials and masquerades as "you", since she / he has none of her / his own, and lived through the damage that THAT causes."


How is having a degree going to stop someone from stealing your credentials?

The only thing that can help is having your picture attached to your PE license on the states board of engineering. Even than you would need people to check the web site to verify that it is you.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

RE: Engineer?

5
A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she has a degree in medicine.
A veterinarian is not a veterinarian until he or she has a degree in veterinary medicine.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she has a degree in law.
A teacher is not a teacher until he or she has a degree in education.

Sorry, folks - in my books, an engineer isn't an engineer until he or she has a degree in engineering.

I am not saying that there aren't a bunch of smart folks who probably *could* do what engineers do; there *are*. The issue is whether or not it ought to be allowed, let alone encouraged. I personally don't believe it should be. I believe that by not restricting the title, we are only contributing towards the erosion of the profession, and that the further we allow that erosion to proceed, the more meaningless the word "engineering" will become.

RE: Engineer?

Reminds me of when as a freshmen at my old alma mater, we learned that students there were often referred to as 'toots' by the local townspeople. The legend goes that when the State of Michigan first established the school in 1885 and announced that it was going to train 'engineers', the local people thought that they meant the 'engineers' who operated locomotives, thus the nickname 'toots'. Well, it makes for a great story winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: Engineer?

SNORGY
"...Sorry, folks - in my books, an engineer isn't an engineer until he or she has a degree in engineering....
....I believe that by not restricting the title, we are only contributing towards the erosion of the profession, and that the further we allow that erosion to proceed, the more meaningless the word "engineering" will become."


Real funny.
Look you really look at what was required to be an engineer in the pass (at least in California) you would find that the "erosion of the profession" is occuring as the requirements to get a PE increases.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

RE: Engineer?

For professional licensure here in Ontario: you either have a degree from an accredited university, or you write ten three-hour technical "challenge" examinations. Pass those, and nobody cares where or even if you went to school. To me, that's fair. I don't give a rat's hind end about "definitions" beyond this very functional one, based on knowledge of fundamentals.

We don't bother making all grads write the three ten-hour examinations. Instead we accredit programs at institutions, both locally and internationally. Your program or institution isn't on the list? Based on an interview, you are assessed one or more of those three hour exams. Some people don't think that's fair, but I do. It's certainly more efficient than making everyone write the same exam. Even if you did that, some people would think that the ones who wrote the exam fresh out of school had an unfair advantage over anyone coming in from abroad.

At that point, an immigrant engineer can obtain a provisional license- something that says to employers that they've met the criteria for licensure but lack the 1 year of mentored experience required to grant them a license. That gives employers some comfort, because at least the licensure body has some familiarity with the 2000 or so degree-granting institutions worldwide, and which ones are frauds and which ones actually give legitimate engineering degrees, whereas few if any employers could have a real command of that subject and hence would simply prefer locally-educated folks. Even if an immigrant cannot get a license, they can still get a job as an engineer under an employer who has a Certificate of Authorization (i.e. a patsy engineer willing to take "professional responsibility" for all the professional engineering work done by that firm), or an employer who is working under the so-called "industrial exemption" which still hasn't been repealed here. But in both of those cases, they have no right to the title "engineer", and if they use it they are subject to fines and other enforcement action. So they get called other things: "designer", "project manager", or just have business cards saying "B.A.Sc. mechanical engineering" (which, if factual, cannot be argued with irrespective of how disreputable the degree granting institution may be).

The reality is, we get thousands of immigrants every year who feel they have every right to practice engineering here and call themselves engineers the moment they arrive. Some of them are amongst the very best engineers in the world- and they don't have a problem obtaining a license by and large, though they may not like the process and the time it takes. Some of them couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag, which of course can be said of some local grads. Others are frauds- they have no real degree or knowledge, they are just looking to get a career here through a "Catch Me If You Can" trick.

RE: Engineer?

As moltenmetal points out, there are alternative paths to licensure as a Professional Engineer in this country.

woodman88 (and others), I certainly mean no disrespect to you or your opinion, since I cannot speak from a position of strength about how things work in the USA or the UK, whereas you probably can.

The problem that I have with this issue, and I do believe that it occurs to varying extents on both sides of the border and on both sides of the Atlantic, is that through soft legislation and our subconscious, gracious tolerance of what we are allowing the public at large to do / say about us, we are making it far too easy for unqualified or unscrupulous individuals to short-cut the qualification process and call themselves "engineers" when they really are not worthy of the title. I know of a number of technologists (and, in fact, high school graduates) who would claim that "...we are just as good as, in fact better than, engineers because we have more hands-on practical sense..." and all the rest of that tripe. I know a great many more, by contrast, who know when things are getting to the point where what they are undertaking is better left in the hands of those with the higher - yes HIGHER - level of credentials, namely, a Professional Engineer.

I aced my fetal pig dissection and examination in high school with a perfect score. That doesn't mean I am qualified as a veterinary surgeon.

moltenmetal alludes to frauds and stops just short of opening the topic of diploma mills. I have seen one of those "engineers" first hand as well; this one was well into a 20+ year career before being found out. How does that happen? Well...it does.

In my Province, the profession is self-regulated. Therefore, the only people who can put a stop to this kind of nonsense is us - the engineers. With each passing year, I become more appalled and disenchanted with the observation that we are doing the exact opposite, and encouraging the "inclusivity" to the point where the "profession" is becoming nothing more than a growing mob of non-credentialed non-professionals. It is beyond disturbing.

Maybe we should just hand them a beaver stamp and force them to use it. That would weed out a good number of them.

RE: Engineer?

I've always felt the argument:

A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she has a degree in medicine.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she has a degree in law.
An engineer isn't an engineer until he or she has a degree in engineering.

isn't quite valid. A lawyer and medical doctor get a BS degree in whatever, then go to law and medical school. An engineer just requires a bachelors degree. The comparison isn't quite fair. I understand your frustration certainly, but to say someone with a BS in chemistry doesn't know enough to be a chemical engineer, or a BS in physics doesn't know enough to be a mechanical engineer, I would argue isn't so.

I like the idea of requiring a test for licensure, but allowing a broad level of education (say a 4 year science/engineering/technology degree) to sit for the exam.

RE: Engineer?

California does NOT require a degree to become a lawyer. There may be other states that have the same or similar rules.

RE: Engineer?

Perhaps, but you do need to pass a state exam to practice law in California.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

RE: Engineer?

While that's true, I was responding to this:

A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she has a degree in medicine.
A veterinarian is not a veterinarian until he or she has a degree in veterinary medicine.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she has a degree in law.
A teacher is not a teacher until he or she has a degree in education.
----------------
We know that teachers do NOT need a degree in education.
We know that lawyers do NOT need a degree in law.

Why do people make claims that are demonstrably false in order to support an argument? It doesn't help the argument if 50% or more of your examples are false.

RE: Engineer?

(OP)
TenPenny,

You are right in finding the flaw in that logic. There has to be a better way to argue the point.

RE: Engineer?

There's been a continuing assertion about non-degreed "Sanitation Engineers" as somehow "diminshing" whatever cachet PEs might have ever had in the eyes of the public, but what the argument fails to recognize is that requiring licensing of ALL engineers would mean that about 4x more engineers would suddenly sprout out of the woodwork to get licenses, many of them currently "enjoying" their industrial exemptions, while others are completely out of the scope of the supposed intent of the PE laws, i.e., what would be the purpose of requiring moi to be licensed, given that I have zero, and possibly, less than zero interaction with the public, aside from building weapons of mass destruction?

So, two points:
> All those currently industrially exempt CEs, SEs, EEs, and MEs will become licensed and will be able to compete with the existing pool of PEs, and if anyone thinks that that their compensation is being adversely affected now, just wait until then.
> PE laws are written with "In order to safeguard life, health, property, and public welfare" as the purpose, nothing in there about protecting the profession; it's all about protecting the public. That makes dinking around with the law to do the former is inappropriate and mostly doomed to fail.

TTFN
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Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: Engineer?

Sorry, just couldn't pass this by:



RE: Engineer?

Who owns the title "Engineer"?
well, train drivers, heavy equipment operators, steam plant operators - yep, all called "engineers". The rest of us nerds are just tag-a-longs.

US, Alaska State law, (probably the same for most states - following the model codes) engineering for hire requires a PE ticket. A university degree is not required. As I recall (that's code meaning I don't remember the exact requirements):
Degree from an accredited university, four years experience, including two years with responsible charge, FE exam (8 hours), PE exam (8 hours)

With no degree from an acredited university, 8 years(? - I think) experience, 2 years responsible charge, FE and PE exams.

If one works for the company, then they can do engineering for that company - some restrictions on public access facilities, waste water, and drinking water systems. The company can make anybody they want an engineer.

Me? PE, EA, some other alphabet soup. I design as little as I possibly can. I have no anamosity toward design engineers - without them I'd have made a lot less money.

I work with plenty of engineers who's main job is keeping track of the budget. Do they have a degree in engineering? I think most do. But so what? I think the owners would have been as well off hiring acountants - or better yet, promoted up smart bookkeepers.

And - I remind myself that I was not one bit better the day after I got my PE than I was the day before. My super power makes the money - the PE ticket just gets my foot in the door. And the regulators like the PE ticket. They think it means I know what I'm talking about - adds credulence.

As already said, when I'm showing out, I tell all I'm a grade A nerd - electrical grade A, none better ~smile

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

RE: Engineer?

Depends on your jurisdiction, but many start their licensure laws on a model law (like NCEES's) and then change from there.

If they left something like the below in there, technically it's illegal and anybody who does it can be fined. I'd imagine it's rarely enforced other than people actually practicing engineering and claiming to be an engineer when they're not. And even then, probably not often. Most jurisdictions will modify their law to clarify that it only applies to unlicensed people purported to be 'professional engineers' or 'consulting engineers' or whatever. Think Illinois is like this. Looks like California is too from a brief glance. Looking at Texas's, looks like they give outs for new grads who are working under engineers (so they can have 'engineer' in their job title) so long as they are degreed from an ABET accredited institution, NASA employees, and utility companies. But don't allow people who maintain mechanical equipment (usually called 'building engineers') to use the title.

NCEES's model law states:
150.30 Grounds for Disciplinary Action

Unlicensed Individuals
A.
In addition to any other provisions of law, the board shall have the power to fine and recover costs
from any unlicensed individual who is found guilty of:

1.
Engaging in the practice or offer to practice of engineering or surveying in this jurisdiction without being licensed in accordance with the provisions of this Act

2.
Using or employing the words “engineer,” “engineering,” “surveyor,” “surveying,” or any modification or derivative thereof in his or her name or form of business activity except as licensed in this Act


http://cdn3.ncees.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Model_Law_2014.pdf

RE: Engineer?

eh, a lot of engineers can't calculate a lot more then a simple statics or strength of materials task, once they are a couple years from school (10).
some are even afraid to calc anything, because they will be responsible for that.
i has a degree, not to worry.

RE: Engineer?

As a UK engineer without a degree, I like to be called an engineer and I call myself one but when it comes to safety critical stuff, I think everyone agrees they need to be signed off by qualified engineers. Squabling over the use of the term seems pointless since the word is so vague and covers jobs from software development to boiler repair to designing a skyscraper.

RE: Engineer?

(OP)

Quote (loki3000)

eh, a lot of engineers can't calculate a lot more then a simple statics or strength of materials task, once they are a couple years from school (10).
some are even afraid to calc anything, because they will be responsible for that.
i has a degree, not to worry.

I am sorry, but nothing you have said above makes sense.

hydroman247 - you "like" to be called an engineer. That is a problem - it seems you have decided that it sounds better to call yourself that, rather than to acknowledge that you may have a tough time qualifying yourself as such. And your logic about the vagueness - I don't buy that the current status quo SHOULD be accepted as such. That is a lazy way of thinking. The point, to me, is that the word is being hijacked in so many fields for the same reason you give - they "like" to be called an engineer. Microsoft "likes" to call their people engineers, because it gives the customers a nice fuzzy feeling that they are dealing with a high caliber, qualified, and competent person. Of course the clients require and deserve those qualities - but, why does that require using the word "engineer"?

I'd "like" to be called a materials expert and a thin and in-shape guy. Call yourselves what you are, not what you want to be.

RE: Engineer?

Being an engineer (PE) is kind of meaningless (except for the money) to me. I have tried to report PE's to the state boards and the states boards do nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist. So I say just take what money you can.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

RE: Engineer?

We need to get over ourselves. There are only about 500k licensed engineers and only about 2M engineers in total, in the US. There are about 330M of them. Playing this elitist card is just not going to happen. We make 2 times more than almost all them and we do things that they can't even being to understand; where are you going to get the sympathy vote out of that? You're the 1% in this case; they want those titles to knock you down a notch.

TTFN
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Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: Engineer?

One of my credit cards says Dr and yet I am not one, so it is. It sure gets a different response when paying for something.

I have plenty of non engineer friends that use the term engineer loosely. I laugh to myself when they say it since only Architects and Engineers will make it clear if they are not licensed in conversation. I asked my partner if he wanted PE on his business card? He laughed and said no, why? If you want the title don't become an engineer. I just want to be called rich and happy.

B+W Engineering and Design | Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer http://bwengr.com

RE: Engineer?

Dick:

Your comment stinks.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)


RE: Engineer?

It is pretty simple in my province, it's the law:

Quote:

32. No person shall claim in any manner to be an advocate, notary, physician, dentist, pharmacist, optometrist, veterinary surgeon, agrologist, architect, engineer, land-surveyor, forest engineer, chemist, medical imaging technologist, radiation oncology technologist or medical electrophysiology technologist, denturologist, dispensing optician, chiropractor, hearing-aid acoustician, podiatrist, nurse, acupuncturist, bailiff, midwife, geologist or chartered professional accountant, or use one of the above titles or any other title or abbreviation which may lead to the belief that he is one, or initials which may lead to the belief that he is one, or engage in a professional activity reserved to the members of a professional order, claim to have the right to do so or act in such a way as to lead to the belief that he is authorized to do so, unless he holds a valid, appropriate permit and is entered on the roll of the order empowered to issue the permit, unless it is allowed by law.

The prohibition relating to the use of any titles, abbreviations or initials mentioned in the first paragraph or in an Act constituting a professional order extends to the use of such titles, abbreviations and initials in a feminine form.

You don't need a degree, only to be a member of the professional order recognized by the government (there is only one for each profession); although it might be difficult to be accepted without one. For engineers, when you apply for the permit, you have to use the title «Junior Engineer» for at least 2 years where you can perform activities reserved by law for engineers, but only under the immediate supervision and direction of an engineer. Then you can apply for your Enginner's permit.

What is an Engineer? Again there's a law, the Engineers Act, where it says:

Quote:

PRACTICE OF THE ENGINEERING PROFESSION

2. Works of the kinds hereinafter described constitute the field of practice of an engineer:

(a) railways, public roads, airports, bridges, viaducts, tunnels and the installations connected with a transport system the cost of which exceeds $3,000;

(b) dams, canals, harbours, lighthouses and all works relating to the improvement, control or utilization of waters;

(c) works of an electrical, mechanical, hydraulic, aeronautical, electronic, thermic, nuclear, metallurgical, geological or mining character and those intended for the utilization of the processes of applied chemistry or physics;

(d) waterworks, sewer, filtration, purification works to dispose of refuse and other works in the field of municipal engineering the cost of which exceeds $1,000;

(e) the foundations, framework and electrical and mechanical systems of buildings the cost of which exceeds $100,000 and of public buildings within the meaning of the Public Buildings Safety Act (chapter S-3);

(f) structures accessory to engineering works and intended to house them;

(g) temporary framework and other temporary works used during the carrying out of works of civil engineering;

(h) soil engineering necessary to elaborate engineering works;

(i) industrial work or equipment involving public or employee safety.

R. S. 1964, c. 262, s. 2; 1973, c. 60, s. 2.

3. The practice of the engineering profession consists in performing for another any of the following acts, when they relate to the works mentioned in section 2:

(a) the giving of consultations and opinions;

(b) the making of measurements, of layouts, the preparation of reports, computations, designs, drawings, plans, specifications;

(c) the inspection or supervision of the works.

R. S. 1964, c. 262, s. 3.

4. For the works described in paragraph e of section 2, an engineer may not do any of the acts contemplated in paragraph b of section 3 without the collaboration of an architect unless they relate to an existing building and do not alter its form.

R. S. 1964, c. 262, s. 4.

5. Nothing in this Act shall:

(a) affect the rights of a person entitled to practise as an architect, provided that he has the collaboration of an engineer for the works contemplated by paragraph e of section 2, nor shall it prevent him from collaborating with an engineer who requires his services for the other works contemplated by the said section;

(b) affect the rights of the members of the Ordre professionnel des technologues professionnels du Québec or prohibit the execution by a member of that order of any work for which he has been trained in the schools or institutes which give the technical course governed by the Specialized Schools Act (chapter E-10) or in the colleges established pursuant to the General and Vocational Colleges Act (chapter C-29);

(c) deprive members of the Ordre des ingénieurs forestiers du Québec of the right to use the title of forest engineer and to practise their profession within the field reserved to them by an Act of Québec;

(d) affect the rights of land surveyors in their legally recognized field;

(e) prevent urbanists, agronomists and professional chemists from practising their profession in the field assigned to them by any law;

(f) prevent any person from practising the profession of chemist, bacteriologist, geologist or physicist or from doing anything related to prospecting for minerals;

(g) affect the rights enjoyed by the members of the Corporation of Master Pipe-Mechanics of Québec and the Corporation of Master Electricians of Québec, under the Acts which govern them;

(h) restrict the normal practice of his art or trade by a mere artisan or skilled workman;

(i) prevent any person from carrying out or supervising works as owner, contractor, superintendent, foreman or inspector when such works are carried out under the authority of an engineer;

(j) prevent an employee from doing for his employer anything contemplated in paragraph b of section 3, under the immediate direction of an engineer who affixes his signature and seal in the cases contemplated by section 24 and his signature in the cases contemplated by section 25;

(k) prevent the holder of a diploma awarded by the Université du Québec on the completion of the program of studies for a bachelor's degree in technology at the École de technologie supérieure, or the holder of an equivalent diploma from the Université du Québec, from executing works for which he has been prepared by the education he has received. Nothing in this paragraph diminishes the rights vested by the Professional Code (chapter C-26) in the holder of any such diploma;

(l) prevent a person from performing acts reserved for members of the Order, provided he performs them in accordance with the provisions of a regulation adopted pursuant to paragraph h of section 94 of the Professional Code.

R. S. 1964, c. 262, s. 5; 1973, c. 60, s. 3; 1975, c. 80, s. 33; 1977, c. 5, s. 229; 1980, c. 12, s. 9; 1984, c. 47, s. 64; 1993, c. 38, s. 7; 1994, c. 40, s. 336.

RE: Engineer?

Re. JackAction's list above: can anyone explain what a "forest engineer" is, and why do they appear to need a category distinct from every other type of mainstream engineering?

RE: Engineer?

kind of makes sense, given what damage an ill-timed or poorly planned pre-emptive brush-clearing burn can accidentally do. Or, poorly planned forestry roads and fire-breaks.

But, why is bailiff on the list? In the US, I think they're usually deputy sheriffs. I see that in Canada, they can be private companies; interesting.

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

RE: Engineer?

A forest engineer is sort of a combination civil engineer and biologist, I'm not sure why they specifically call out that discipline as opposed to any other.

When I was in school, the forest engineering students generally were the hardest partiers, great bunch to spend time with.

RE: Engineer?

I think the reason that Forest Engineer is specifically named is due to the extent of the forestry industry in Quebec. After some investigation, an industry group reports that the industry accounts for 2.3% of the GDP of Quebec. It is likely that such a prominent industry has significant lobbying efforts to put such things in place.

RE: Engineer?

About forest engineers: They protect our forest. When you do it commercially, you cannot - literally - cut a single tree without the approval of a forest engineer. The profession appeared when people started abusing clearcutting. They have their own order and are not linked to engineers per say. To refer to TenPenny's post, I would say that they are more biologist than civil engineer.

RE: Engineer?

(OP)
Quebec it is!

Now to convince the wife... :/

RE: Engineer?

3
[Context, USA]

I've stopped caring. I've known engineers who are absolute geniuses with physics and possess an ability to constantly have a visceral three dimensional consciousness of the project at hand which enables them to see any issues that may arise, before they arise. Some that know what the weak points are, and what areas don't require exhaustive calculations because they are "over built" to an extent that it's not worth worrying about (unless it is required by an authority to prove it) and all the while maintain the ability to force software to output realistic analyses while still maintaining the ability to do the work by hand to spot-check results to ensure accuracy.

I've also known people with the same on-paper qualifications (multiple degrees, managerial/senior titles) who couldn't size the main beams on a generator platform given the footprint and weight of the equipment.

I've also known people with nothing but a high school diploma who fell into the same category as my first paragraph.

I feel there are protections the public must have. However, "job titles" are not in such a realm. If someone is claiming to be an engineer in order to sell their services to an unknowing member of the public, then yes, that is unfortunate. I also believe there should be an avenue to achieve 'engineer' status legally (though not with lesser testing) without getting a degree as I believe it's an academic circle-jerking scam that denies a great percentage of the population the opportunity.

The only people I've known to get literally offended by someone claiming status of "engineer" without having a BSME/BSCE/etc, are people who are either very insecure and feel titles validate themselves, or people so elitist and vanity that it reminds me of the hoity-toity restaurant patron who would complain to management if someone wasn't wearing a necktie with their suit jacket.

_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5

RE: Engineer?

An engineer is a person who is trained to know EVERYTHING about the process of making a product.

RE: Engineer?

Playswow,

Manufacturing? In my world, that is the part engineers are not trained in!

--
JHG

RE: Engineer?

(OP)

Quote (Playswow)

EVERYTHING

That is a false statement. Example - do you know EVERYTHING about the chemistry of steel and concrete? Hint: The answer is no.

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

RE: Engineer?

You didn't have to take construction materials in college?

RE: Engineer?

Sure there were materials classes, but didn't make me an expert in all things steel & aluminum - let alone some of the more exotic materials or materials not used much in modern aviation.

I've seen a good few proposed definitions of what is/who gets to be an engineer in my time on this site Playswow but I'm afraid to say yours is one I have have to disagree with most strongly - and that's coming from someone who's something of a contrarian on this topic.

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Engineer?

(OP)
An important part of being an engineer (ignoring the impossibility of knowing EVERYTHING) is to be able to have very strong deductive/inductive reasoning skills in order to make informed decisions/choices even when we are not experts in a particular subject. We all have specialized skills (structural analysis, heat transfer, fluid flow etc.) that we have spent many years working on, but we are constantly asked to solve problems outside of our expertise. However - at a minimum, an engineer knows when to not meddle with things he/she could make a gross error with. Living in a fantasy world of "knowing all" is a slippery slope to making poor choices.

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

RE: Engineer?

I describe engineering as working outside the constraints of previously generated engineering code books, manuals and the like. Engineering is when you travel outside the world of the known, world proven, scientific fact and understanding and traverse into the realm of the experimental, doing what you can with some sense of humility to adapt whatever project is in your hands to safe human usage, often having to conduct your own study to gather data on paper for how the project will function in real life scenarios and hope that you have enough safety factor to prevent a catastrophic result.

Though the imbeciles that take control of it after you're done will probably run it at 450% mawp, or press an old peice of equipment into service and blow it up.

Could be wrong though.

RE: Engineer?

"An engineer is a person who is trained to know EVERYTHING about the process of making a product."

And as you gain experience you'll realise that you won't live long enough to know everything. I know guys who've forgotten more than I'll ever know about generators. And that's supposed to be something I actually know about.

RE: Engineer?

I think many of you have it wrong.

A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she serves a residency, passes the tests and is licensed.
A veterinarian is not a veterinarian until he or she has serves a residency, passes the tests and is licensed.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she passes the bar exam and is licensed.
A teacher is not a teacher until he or she performs student teaching, passes the tests and is certified (licensed).

To be an engineer, for all practical purposes, no testing or licensing is required. That's why we do not have the respect or pay of the "true" professionals such as medical doctors, veterinarians, lawyers or teachers. They have control of their professional societies, engineers do not. Our professional societies do very little to advance the cause of engineers. ASCE, ASME IEEE, etc. are technical societies not professional societies.

RE: Engineer?

We respect lawyers?










not...

Not all doctors make the big salaries; the average family doctor draws less than $200k: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2012/07...

Many engineers make that much.

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com: http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

RE: Engineer?

I like my definition. I felt as the everything comment had a limited meaning, not as you interpreted.

RE: Engineer?

(OP)

Quote (havesealwilltravel )

I think many of you have it wrong.

That is a very brave comment in a thread of engineers who seem to generally agree to let it go. I don't know, havesealwilltravel. I understand what you are saying as far as the comparison to other professions, but I am beginning to understand that for many reasons, it is not worth getting worked up over. I have a feeling that it may be healthier to let it go. I do really disagree with your argument involving monetary value. I doubt owners, architects, contractors, etc. will be any more likely (in the whole) to meet larger engineering fees on the basis of being a "true" professional. I don't know what that means.

Also:

Quote (havesealwilltravel)

...They have control of their professional societies, engineers do not. Our professional societies do very little to advance the cause of engineers. ASCE, ASME IEEE, etc. are technical societies not professional societies.

Do you know for a fact that ASCE, et al do not politic for engineers? Or is it just because you "feel" neglected, and blame those organizations?

Quote (Playswow)

I like my definition

Then consider trying to rewrite basic definitions of words, because that is what you were doing.

Someone should close this thread...

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

RE: Engineer?

Ahh, but there's the rub MacGruber and why I came out of the gates so quick with my beaten horses.

Now you've opened this can of worms it's stuck open until there hasn't been a comment for I think it's 6 months.

As the gap between IRstuff's Dec 15th post and lacajun's Apr 11th post, it's difficult to hit the 6 months on a topic like this as you new know when a new or inactive member will come across it and want to add their 2C (not a dig lacajun by the way).

smile

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RE: Engineer?

(OP)
Kennat - I understand, but it is always good to re-start topics. It can pull in new ideas/opinions that would not otherwise be available by reading a 5-year-old closed thread. You think it is closed, and I am generally satisfied with my take on the topic, but it is clear that there are some who are not done.

If you don't like this thread, go read one of the 10,000 other active threads; but I bet you can't help yourself and will be back for more! tongue

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

RE: Engineer?

Don't mind jabs, KENAT. I fully admit to being completely out of sync here. Apologies.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

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