Dealing with coworkers with engineering title but no degree! 4

[LONDONDERRY]

Some days I just want to scream. I so sick companies giving engineer titles to people that don't even have a engineering degree or there last job was 5 years at Wal-Mart and you have to deal with their incompetence of not knowing the basis of their job
For example:
As a mechanical engineer, I have to deal with a small army of people that are so-called "configuration engineer" but none of them have any sort of engineering back ground and this is their first gig in high tech. Some of these so called "engineers" last jobs where school bus driver, grocery store clerk, store manager. They all have no concept of what an engineering BOM or assembly drawing is and they make a disaster of the engineering documentation. I asked one of them what experience they have with ANSI ASME and their response was.. "what's that?" I MEAN COME ON!!
It got so bad, that I have to tell my manager, that unless CE follow my lead on proper documentation practices I'll given them nothing.

I've worked with some old timers ( 1-2 in my life) they didn't have the engineering title, but came from machine shops, but they really knew their stuff

 

[moltenmetal]

Wow: no offense intended, but perhaps you'd get more respect from these colleagues if you put a little more effort into your written communications?

I've worked with degreed engineers who couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag, don't have a practical bone in their bodies, and are a menace to their clients and co-workers. I've worked with tradesmen whose knowledge and instincts are worth more than an acre of calculations in terms of delivering a safe and functional solution to a problem. The good ones, of both types, approach their work with a sober understanding of who gets hurt if something goes wrong, and with the humility to understand the limits of their knowledge and skill. A degree isn't knowledge and it sure as hell isn't experience- it's a proxy at best. But it does ensure some exposure to fundamentals that are important to engineering practice, generally when the person's mind was young and supple enough to absorb some of it.

The challenge is: how do you deal with people whose confidence extends beyond their competence? If they don't have a degree, do they appreciate just how much they don't know about the fundamentals, that even thirty years of experience is unlikely to teach them? That's a tough one. Who are you helping by incompletely teaching folks who are missing big chunks of the fundamentals? Are you helping your employer by doing that? Is such an employer worth working for? They're likely not going to enjoy your criticism of their very economical hires...

 

[AELLC]

I don't mind non-degreed people being called engineer because I believe the original meaning of the word related to train engineer, and obviously the word implies someone who works with engines, be it railroad, automotive, etc.

 

[cvg]

in the US, if you offer services to the public, it is illegal to call yourself an engineer if you are not licensed. so I would not recommend that title for an un-licensed technician. they should be happy being called designers.

by the way, the vast majority of engineers do not work with engines or locomotives.

According to Wikipedia which is the definitive reference: The word engineer is derived from the Latin roots ingeniare ("to contrive, devise") and ingenium ("cleverness").

 

[AELLC]

cvg

You are right about the Latin derivation but I am perfectly aware of the fact that most engineers do not work with engines or locomotives. I was merely implying that I am not so possessive of the designation "engineer" because as a structural engineer, I have little working experience with actual engines, and if a building engineer meaning maintenance person wants that as his/her title I have no beef with that.

I agree about the legality of offering services, etc, etc, but there is a huge difference between a non-licensed yahoo claiming to be a Structural or Mechanical Engineer and the building engineer - I don't believe the building engineer is guilty of law-breaking or dishonesty.

The thing you really should worry about are non-degreed technicians/ACAD jocks who are employed by certain companies to input data to engineering analysis programs that are intended to be used by degreed engineers that have the academic background to apply judgement regarding the proper input or interpretation of the results. Structural analysis programs are increasingly sophisticated to import data directly from ACAD and IMO this is a very dangerous trend.

 

[TheTick]

I think moltenmetal is off base. Didn't really read the OP that deeply, I think.

OP is not talking about upwardly-mobile tradesmen. It is obvious that this situation is different, with "engineers" how are not competent enough to exercise "understanding of who gets hurt if something goes wrong, and with the humility to understand the limits of their knowledge and skill."

 

[KENAT]

Well I've worked with (and am currently working with) lots of degreed (Associates thru Doctorate some with PE/CEng) Engineers that didn't/don't have the foggiest about ASME drawing standards, configuration control or anything remotely related.

So thinking that requiring these folks to have an engineering degree will fix this is idiotic since it isn't part of the curriculum at most places of Engineering study that I know about/have heard of.

From your post it sounds like the problem is with the people hiring and supervising these "configuration engineers" more so than with the people themselves.

Based on the limited job description you imply then I'm not convinced having an engineering degree is necessarily required for them to do their actual job (ignoring use of the hallowed word 'Engineer' in the job title for now). Previous experience would probably be preferable but failing that, does your company give them any training - or at least access to some of the relevant standards & books on the subject and give them time to educate themselves?

While Moltenmetals post may have been slightly off topic WRT the specific issues, it's entirely on topic to the apparent sense of superiority Londonderry is proclaiming in his thread title/first paragraph.

My views on protection of the word 'engineer' are fairly well documented elsewhere and I'm not sure there's much point opening that can of worms again. As to "or there last job was 5 years at Wal-Mart", technically my last job was as a cashier/trainee supervisor at RiteAid for 9 months - perhaps that disqualifies me from responding to this thread.

(Londonderry I don't mean to be offensive, based on your previous postings you don't come across as an a$$, I'm guessing you've just had it up to the proverbial on this issue and are venting your frustration.)

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[IRstuff]

Of course, if you never do anything to improve their knowledge and expertise, then you become part of the problem. Put your energies into training these hapless souls so that they become the productive employees they should be.

TTFN
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[cranky108]

While it is true that a degree dosen't ensure knoledge, it does imply the ability to learn (something).

I do work with a number of degreed and non-degreed people, and the degreed people don't always have the training for the specility we require. So we train them.
The non-degreed people have a title of field-engineer, mainly for public trust that they do know something. And they do. But there work is reviewed by a degreed engineer in another department.
The title in our case is for field engineers is for public trust (some how the term linemen dosen't envoke public trust, although all of our linemen are trained very well).

A little different is that electrical engineers are rarely trained with any knoledge of power systems (everything is computers). But they have the basis for learning the power industry.

Everybody should know that new grads need to be trained. That an engineering degree does not imply complete knoledge of the subject.

 

[Enginerd9]

The title "Sales Engineer" really annoys me for no rational reasons. I understand the frustrations from the OP, but really I think there are more important problems to solve. Someone mentioned my other point already about skill / talent not being derived from a title... as in, you don't suddenly get imbued with skill / talent / experience / sense just because some watery tart through a sword at you.

Pick your battles. Don't get frustrated. Just figure out how to be a better Engineer yourself and leave the posers in the dust. Eventually someone will notice.

Experience: accumulated knowledge over time.

Talent: the ability to use experience.

Which is more valuable?

 

[1gibson]

Well there was no question in the original post, and it seems like the title probably should have been "complaining about..." rather than "dealing with..."

Help train them, and they will be easier to deal with. The time you spend threatening your manager would be better spent training others that you work with. Be consistent and be patient. If you want things to change then you do not have the option of saying "it's been a long day and this is the best I will get out of them, so I might as well just begrudgingly accept it." If you don't have the time or the discipline for that, then you're never going to fit in there. Improve what you can, don't be rude to anybody, and start interviewing.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

According to Wikipedia which is the definitive reference:

Got a chuckle out of that one...


If a company is hiring former bus drivers and grocery store clerks for true engineering-related positions, they get what they deserve in the final product. Not much left to discuss once you hit that point.


Enginerd, thank you for the Holy Grail/Spamalot reference.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[FACS]

I don't bother wasting energy fretting and getting upset about the other guy. I concentrate on myself. I do my best, learn my task and try to teach others when I can.

Omniscience is a terrible burden and I have enough to do already.



Charlie

http://www.facsco.com

 

[Enginerd9]

MacGyver, glad you enjoyed that. I realize now my phone auto-corrected "threw" to "through" which irritates me slightly.

Experience: accumulated knowledge over time.

Talent: the ability to use experience.

Which is more valuable?

 

[ajack1]

The other day I spoke to someone who advertised as a PC Doctor.

It turned out that not only was he not politically correct but had never performed open heart surgery in his life. I was so angry I nearly said a rude word in a slightly raised voice.

 

[IRstuff]

In this day and age, people misusing "Doctor" is hardly new; I've dealt with a Lock Doctor, who was a mobile locksmith and saved me from having to break a window. There's a spectrum the respectful reverence that might be like Germany, and willful disrespect and mocking that's typical of America. But, any institution that engenders that level of distance potentially prevents the scrutiny required to root out malfeasance, as demonstrated by the rampant match fixing in sumo wrestling.

TTFN
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[kingnero]

I've thrown out a maintenance engineer because he "did the calcs" and wanted to buy M9 bolts.
I've also learned more about machine design from a "lathe operator" than from school and first employer combined.

titles really aren't important, people are.

 

[kylesito]

I get the frustration. I once met someone that was a "business development engineer". Their position was nothing related to anything engineering...but engineer sounded cooler than manager, I guess.

But at the same time, it's pretty obvious to most that someone who is a "mechanical engineer" versus "configuration engineer" is discussing one thing versus another. I guess that's a good reason to go for the PE designation...there is no mixing what their qualifications are.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[TheTick]

I worked one place where a hack designer was promoted to "engineering supervisor" just so they could put the word "engineering" in his title and give him more credibility. They also paid for everyone to have SAE memberships and put "SAE" after our names on the biz cards.

 

[cranky108]

When you say "SAE" I sort of think of motor oil. It's been sort of watered down from what they are all about.

As I said above, the degree dosen't mean knoledge, but it may mean trainable.

But also remember the Peter princible happens in managment.