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Crazy cantilevered steel deck 1

DoubleStud

Structural
Jul 6, 2022
507
I found this video on youtube. What do you think of this deck? The guy went to the end of the deck and jumped a little bit, you can clearly see the deck moves up and down. At minute 3:55 he shows the structural detail.


 
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Very interesting analysis by all! The deck and house design by Steven Baczek looks bold and it will be interesting to see the finished structure. Mr Baczek seems to be confident and not a blowhard. His "150 pound" comments are certainly made in jest. His talk about the design appears to be rather detailed and he seems to be very engaged in the details way beyond of how the structure looks. Since I am not a structural engineer and have not personal building experience I don't have an understanding of why many have said this design obviously had no engineering oversight. Is it because the structure is fully dependent on the 4 anchors resisting rotation or the potential for bounciness or what? If the load on the four anchors and support members are not exceeding safe limits couldn't this design have engineering sign off by an engineer that has a different level of design factors? I get the comments about putting a hot tub on the deck but not everybody would consider putting a hot tub on the deck; a small table and two chairs works well for many. Should every deck be designed explicitly for a hot tub install?
 
I was mentioning that some type of ethical/professional response was called for not because there was no engineer involved (reportedly) and not because I don't trust architects (my son is one of "them") but solely based on the statements above that the numbers didn't work out for steel design and my own concern over longer term weathering degradation in the concrete/anchor area.
 
I am not a PE so I don't know what potential professional censure could occur, so I am missing why any of you who see a grave failing in the design do not personally contact Mr. Baczek and point out your observation(s). The Citicorp building errors were pointed out to the design team and the outcome was a win/win. I see some passive/aggressive suggestions of sending an anonymous message. If there is an obvious concern why must a message be sent anonymously? I ask this as openly as my username is my name.
 
I don't have an understanding of why many have said this design obviously had no engineering oversight. Is it because the structure is fully dependent on the 4 anchors resisting rotation or the potential for bounciness or what?
I didn't run any calculations on the anchor bolts, but others here have, and some of them feel they're inadequate. I think that's the reason for this general sentiment. I wouldn't say the design obviously had no engineering oversight, although I think it's possible.

For me, the concern is more in terms of long term maintenance. I can see the concrete and anchor bolts potentially degrading over time, and if the deck is loaded more than it normally is in say 20 or 30 years and it has degraded, there's the potential for a sudden failure. To be realistic, I assume there will be zero maintenance/inspection of this deck and therefore, I wouldn't want to design something exactly like this. I would want some additional redundancy built into the system somehow. I should also add that I'm somewhat low on the risk tolerance spectrum, especially where concrete is involved.

I get the comments about putting a hot tub on the deck but not everybody would consider putting a hot tub on the deck; a small table and two chairs works well for many. Should every deck be designed explicitly for a hot tub install?
Code doesn't require that decks be designed for hot tubs. Depending on which code you're required to follow, the deck live load is likely either 40 psf (IRC) or 60 psf (ASCE 7) assuming this is a residence. Generally, I design for 60 psf. If it's known up front that a hot tub will be installed, an engineer would obviously design for that. If a homeowner decided to add a hot tub later and didn't engage an engineer, there's a good chance the deck would be overloaded and in the worst case could risk collapse.

While a small table, two chairs, and two people is probably the most loading a deck like this will feel on a normal basis, it's nowhere near what code requires. With the 40 psf live load, assuming this deck is something like 8 ft x 16 ft, this would amount to (26) 200 lb people standing on it. Or with the 60 psf loading, it would be (38) 200 lb people!
 
I get the comments about putting a hot tub on the deck but not everybody would consider putting a hot tub on the deck; a small table and two chairs works well for many. Should every deck be designed explicitly for a hot tub install?
It's a reference to a meme where hot tubs have been put on some very questionable locations.
 
This video was posted over two years ago so not sure what purpose any notification would pose.

Agree it looks a bit high risk for everything to hang off four bolts, but the highest risk was probably at the first big party which is now long gone....
 
Agree it looks a bit high risk for everything to hang off four bolts, but the highest risk was probably at the first big party which is now long gone....
Well to me the highest risk is the next big party after the concrete around those "iffy" J bolts gets cracked and deteriorated by freeze-thaw action in Columbia, Missouri.
 
Well to me the highest risk is the next big party after the concrete around those "iffy" J bolts gets cracked and deteriorated by freeze-thaw action in Columbia, Missouri.
Agreed. Plenty of structures have withstood design loads for a long time before they fail catastrophically. I could link hundreds. But I'll just link this:

 
His "150 pound" comments are certainly made in jest. His talk about the design appears to be rather detailed and he seems to be very engaged in the details way beyond of how the structure looks.
I agree he may be joking, but he never indicates he is joking verbally or by expression. He may think, 'I joke about my weight all the time in these videos", but we have not seen his prior ones. Plus, he did it twice. But in the end, that had nothing to do with our comments on the structure. It does bother me he jumped up a little, then said "Study as can be". It is not sturdy as can be, he may consider it sturdy for a cantilevered structure but not me. Also, as I stated before, it deflected down as he walked out to the corner, but we did not get to see that, only the movement from the bounce he did.
why many have said this design obviously had no engineering oversight. Is it because the structure is fully dependent on the 4 anchors resisting rotation or the potential for bounciness or what?
The first thing most of us noted was a combination of the lack of redundancy coupled with an unknown amount of embedment of the anchors. We cannot read all the anchor info, but by scale, the anchors are about 8" deep. That is not much embedment for a 3/4" anchor bolt. I am old school 17 to 19 diameters of embedment for tension. It is not that failure of all 4 bolts leads to a collapse, the failure of 1 bolt leads to collapse. The overturning is pulling straight up on the 2 anchor bolts towards the house and the other 2 are somewhat along for the ride. But if one breaks, the other follows suit. Then the other column follows that. It will be quick, not gradual. You will have no warning. Also, if they are A307, they may be good for about 9 kips tension each. Based on the lack of redundancy, I would not want more than 50% stressed under the worst condition.

As far as a hot tub, someone adding a hot tub should consult an engineer, but you cannot make them. Here is the problem though. Let's say anchor bolts are not designed 100% right but they work so far, and I am constantly encroaching into a typical 1.6 FOS. Owner adds a hot tub and while using it, the anchor bolts pull loose or snap and the deck collapses and hurts someone. I assure you; an engineer investigating will point out the flawed anchor design and lack of redundancy. The designer will still get in trouble, even though they never said it could have a hot tub on it.

Now the bounce I commented on earlier. I have been on multiple shaky decks. It sucks. Also, you never have any idea what will happen one day to cause a quick overload. Assessed one with a really weak handrail system that overlooked a golf course. The Owner selling the house complained about my evaluation and told me how there is never more than 6 people on the deck at one time. It was 12'x30' while this one is 8'x16'. There were 2 women putting at the hole nearest the house. I asked him if he had 25 friends inside his Great Room off the deck watching the Super Bowl and those 2 women got into a knock-down drag out fight, what would his friends do? Stay watching the Super Bowl or watch the fight? He had to admit they would come watch. I told him yeah, and they would lean against this rail as they did. You just never know.
 
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I am not a PE so I don't know what potential professional censure could occur, so I am missing why any of you who see a grave failing in the design do not personally contact Mr. Baczek and point out your observation(s). The Citicorp building errors were pointed out to the design team and the outcome was a win/win. I see some passive/aggressive suggestions of sending an anonymous message. If there is an obvious concern why must a message be sent anonymously? I ask this as openly as my username is my name.
This may sound silly but here goes. So far, no one has done a truly intense review of this. Even the model that Az did, was very preliminary. In my state, if I was to truly review this (not speculate) I have to contact him first. I can speculate all day but not do a truly technical review. Also, this would be what I call a bunch of "Responses to Responses". He could get mad first, call my PE board (as noted before) complaining I was trying to practice in MO where I am not licensed. In MO and any other state, I have no standing as an engineer. It does not mean he would succeed in getting me in trouble, but could try. I then must respond to my PE board, and then another response, . . . . In short, his response sets the tone at that point. It could be Thanks, or Who the hell are you to question me?

My concern has been mostly serviceability and longevity. I did not like how he dismissed the deflection by saying "Sturdy as Can Be" and would prefer he said "The calculated deflection under full load is X inches". I always do that to let my client know I cannot make it 0 inches (i.e. Sturdy as can Be)

I saw the bolts, did not comment but would like to know how much they embed before I would.

Also, about the design loads versus real life. I have seen teenagers and adults both see something shaky or shackly and then laugh as they amplify whatever the movement is. In high school, I participated. Alcohol was generally involved, but again, let one of the kids that get hurt from the stupidity be a lawyer's kid, see what happens.
 

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