Contractor acting as EOR? 3

[ARS97]

I'll try and keep this short.

A contractor was awarded a project involving a metal building ("pre-engineered"). The design of the building frame was subcontracted to a metal building manufacturer, and foundation design (micropiles) was subcontracted to a drilling company, who subcontracted the design to another engineering entity.

The contractor essentially acted as the EOR.....supplied the design parameters to the metal building designer, who then produced a design according to the provided parameters. The reactions of the building were supplied to the foundation designer, who produced a foundation design. Obviously the contractor acted irresponsibly.

Both design sumittals included a WV seal.

Well, the permit office and the end customer are now requesting that an EOR be named. (A little late, eh?) I work for the sister company of the construction company, who was acting like the EOR. it looks like they may want me to enter into the fray and become the EOR.

In my experience over the years, I've only had to act as the EOR of projects where I've handled the design. How does this affect my role? I feel as if I should review each design in it's entirety. However, shouldn't I be allowed to rely on the expertise of the subcontracts in some fashion? As EOR, I'm merely ensuring that the subcontractors met project specs and provide correct documentation, correct?

 

[JAE]

I feel as if I should review each design in it's entirety.

Yes - correct. You need to go through all the design calculations to the extent where you are confident that the design meets the code and load requirements.

...shouldn't I be allowed to rely on the expertise of the subcontracts in some fashion?

You can certainly "rely" on the drawings and calculations they created to guide you through the tasks of checking all the design calculations (or preparing your own calculations to verify the design).
They can be used as a guide and can sometimes shorten the time it takes to "engineer" the structure.

I'm merely ensuring that the subcontractors met project specs and provide correct documentation, correct?

No. You are not only ensuring that project specs are met or that documentation is correct.
You would become the engineer of record, fully and completely responsible for the design.
That means you must review and/or generate all the calculations that would otherwise be required by a qualified engineer doing the same thing from the start.

Just a cursory review, or a checklist, is not adequate in my view.
You need to protect the public welfare and safety by completely taking charge of the design and, if necessary, changing it if it does not meet code provisions or is incorrectly designed.



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[ARS97]

Sounds pretty cut and dry. That was my suspicion. I'm just building my case for when they say "well it's already stamped...whats taking so long?"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a fairly lengthy review time should be expected, right? It probably wouldn't be equal to a design from scratch, but it's a considerable amount of work.

I have no idea how it slipped thru the cracks to this point, but it's not uncommon in this area.

 

[EngineeringEric]

So when we do PEMB from ground up...
As an engineer i will state the design requirements (loads, serviceability, dimensions, etc). Then i will design a foundation with assumed base reactions. Then the PEMB Manuf provides a design that meets my loading criteria. They seal their building. They own the engineering for that building. I review their base reactions and adjust my foundation plan. I engineered the foundation. I stated load criteria for building and 'delegated' the building's design. I didn't do any engineering for the building yet i am the EOR. The building's frame is a component, it is no different then delegated design for timber trusses.

As engineers we touch and delegate the design for trusses everyday. They are sealed by others. I review them during CA/SI. I now own them but not the engineering of them... but i still am the EOR. Clear right!

I believe you can treat the building that was erected as a delegated design. You need to verify that it was built and designed how it should have been. If not, then your sister company will be reinforcing it... or to be honest, sadly they will pressure you change your criteria or find a bouncing stamp that will. (wow that sounded dejected!)

 

[JStephen]

Look up your state rules and go through them. In some states, this is all very well spelled out, in others, it isn't.

My work would usually fall into that "delegated engineering" slot (although not normally called that), and I'm usually working from contract documents created by an EOR. And that usually means that engineer has (presumably) researched the applicable building codes, fire codes, determined occupancies, zoning, flood hazards, made site grading plans, had soil testing done, etc. If you take the work that two or three different "delegated engineers" would normally do and cobble it together, it's easy for some of that stuff to fall through the cracks. If the owner acts as a general contractor, it's possible that neither of those delegated engineers even know what the whole project involves. You may each be assuming the other has/will check this or that.

Also look into who's responsible for special inspections, who's responsible for general observation/inspection.

 

[hokie66]

Why can't the contractor act as the EOR? Isn't he an engineer? Maybe not, but that was not clear to me.

 

[dhengr]

Andysines:
When your company management will treat your PE status this way, and put you on this kind of spot, you may want to kinda watch over your shoulder, since they don’t seem to have much respect for, or understanding of, your responsibility and obligations as a PE/SE/EOR. It’s just a stamp to them to get someone’s whatchacallit out of a wringer, and they can buy another one with what they would have paid you for the week. In these kinds of situations, it may be that the only thing you really have, in the final analysis, is your PE lic., stamp, ethical stature, self respect and good standing with your Reg. Boards. Those you need for your livelihood and for your next job. I would make sure the company has all the appropriate insurance to cover you while you are acting as a PE/EOR.

 

[JAE]

Per the other comments- delegated design is commonly done for pre-engineered buildings. But the licensed engineer for the PEMB is just the component engineer. As hokie states, an engineer working for the contractor can certainly be the EOR. But many contractors don't have prof. Liability insurance and limit their staff from serving as the EOR.



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[ARS97]

EngineeringEric - Is this delegated design just handled through contractual means? That makes sense to me, as long as the state laws (WV) don't dictate otherwise. It's laughable, but here's how it works here.....the project manager with the parent company(who isn't an engineer of any kind, nor technically inclined) will provide the project "specs" to the PEMB manufacturer. The PEMB manufacturer provides a set of sealed drawings and reactions. The project manager passes along those reactions to me (at the sister company), and I design the foundations. I've had several occasions where the incorrect snow load was used, or drifting conditions weren't identified, or unique topo conditions weren't considered, etc. Countless times we get into a finger-pointing session because they refuse to involve an engineer from the start who can coordinate the design information.

JStephen - I have to do that (state is WV). I don't remember anything regarding component or delegated design, but I'll go through it here this morning. In my situation, where we are typically working with customers in the coal & aggregate business, it's rare that an engineer gets involved early in the process. In fact, it's rare that I ever have to work with code enforcement offices, because once MSHA is involved, they tend to keep a "hands off" approach.

hokie66 - No, the contractor (our parent company) isn't an engineer. They have no engineers on staff of any kind. All design/engineering is "supposed" to be directed through our company, but they regularly like to "play" engineer. (I used to be with them, until I was transferred to my current position earlier this year. I used to be the PE in responsible charge for them, now I'm the acting PE in responsible charge for the sister company.)

dhengr - Believe me, that's a whole other can of worms. I'll say this - I agree 100%. It's been a battle for a while now. I've obtained independent legal counsel and I've taken countless steps to try and cover myself, as best I can.

 

[EngineeringEric]

So with your scenario, i have been there. As the foundation engineer, you are the EOR. This isn't a contractual thing (like no contract states this... but since a PEMB is a manufactured product they cannot be EOR) this is the way it is in Mid-Atlantic and WV (i've only done a few in WV). If the PEMB uses the wrong snow load they need to change their loads and engineer it for the correct snow load. Simple as that. You as the EOR need to sign off on their assumptions. Finger pointing happens but it isn't an engineers job to determine fault it is our job to make it safe and compliant.

So, if you do the foundation you are EOR. It is your job to delegate what the component needs to be designed as, if they forget to apply wind then you need to reject their design until they do. If the truss guy forgot to add Top Chord Live Load / Snow you wouldn't turn away and say 'too bad my header can support the real load' or state that it is the contractors fault for not telling them to include TC LL, or 50% LL.

I know it is difficult to do this all after the fact and it has issues, but that is what happens when the contractor runs the show and it is their risk.

 

[Ron]

EngineeringEric....Exactly! Doing the foundation design does not necessarily make you the EOR; however, in the case of a PEMB being the only structure on the site, you get to be the EOR by default because YOU are the one with actual site knowledge (hopefully!).

PEMB engineering is a delegated function as others have correctly noted. The duties of the EOR are to establish the design criteria and then receive the design from the PEMB engineer and check to see that it comports with the established design criteria. Same as any delegated engineering function.

I agree with your comments and JAE nailed it as usual!!

 

[Teguci]

I'm curious - What language did the PEMB engineer and foundation engineer use to make it clear that they are not the EOR? What expectation was given to them that there was indeed an EOR in charge of this project? If they had no expectation that an EOR was in charge of the project then I'd consider them negligent in protecting the public welfare. If they at least note on their sealed drawings a requirement for the EOR to provide a review, then at least some expectation is found. But, in any case, the contractor, who engaged in engineering without a license, should be held accountable. As for the clean up, good luck.

 

[JAE]

Teguci - I'm sure it varies in different regions. In one case some years ago a contractor came to me and asked me to design the foundation for a PEMB.

I asked him about reviewing the metal building design criteria, coordinating with them on loads, overseeing the construction, etc. The contractor told me he just wanted me to do the foundation, nothing else, and that he would take care of the overall building, etc.

I told him that someone "out there" must be the engineer of record on the building and provide oversight and coordination for the overall structural design. He insisted so I wrote my contract with him stating that we were just the foundation designers and someone else would serve as the EOR.

Fast forward a month and I received the "final" shop drawings of the building along with the reactions for the foundation design. Guess What? The building manufacturer had pasted all over their drawings some standard text in bold boxes stating that they were NOT the EOR and that they were only responsible for the building "component".

I called the contractor and mentioned to him that they were indeed needed to serve as the EOR and if they didn't then I would need to have more fee to perform, and take responsibility for, the overall building design tasks. He managed, somehow, to get them to remove their EOR disclaimer.

As others have mentioned here - the building manufacturer typically is NOT the EOR. However, in this particular case they were.



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[TLHS]

The model code in Canada is set up now with a 'co-ordinating professional' who is responsible for making sure everyone did their bit and that there are no gaps. The individual engineers can then sign off on their bits. So you'll have the building vendor sign off on his part of the building permit schedule, and the HVAC guy will sign off on his bit, and the geotech on his bit. It's pretty nicely defined now. Getting everyone to sign them can be an organizational nightmare, though, because everyone has to do their field inspections.

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

this slipped through the cracks because you have 2 proprietary designs coming together. Both the micropile and the PEMB designs are proprietary and their industry's standard of doing business is to compartmentalize their design to be included in the greater design process. The Engineer who designs the concrete footings has a hard time not being the EOR since they will be completely responsible for the transfer of loads between the PEMB engineered system and the engineered deep foundation micropiles.

Review of the contract language may find that the Prime Contractor will need to get an EOR hired and eat the cost..... the language may push the Owner to fill a design gap.... or you may have contradictory language. Either way, it is a service that needs to be done and the Owner didn't already "pay" for it since nobody evidently considered it in their costs, although that usually won't be the owner's perception.

I can't imagine a stamped project that wouldn't have some level of designated design even if we're just talking about a precast sewer manhole.

 

[ARS97]

EngineeringEric - I've been in that scenario too. In this specific case however, currently BOTH the foundation design and building design are being treated as component design (both were handled by someone other than me). It doesn't seem to make much sense for me to enter into the picture as well, as a third entity, and as the EOR. If the foundation designer would take the reigns and act as the EOR, at least the foundation design has already been reviewed. If they want me as the EOR, I have to essentially design/review BOTH designs. It's a lot of double work. NOTE - there is an interior non-loadbearing firewall composed of metal studs and drywall being added. This addition of this tiny item is how I became involved. Seems a bit silly for the EOR to be the one originally handling the design of the smallest component.

Ron - see above

Teguci - I'm not sure yet. Contractual documents tend to be a big secret around here and ends up creating confusion on every project for me. I'm in the process of tracking this down, but I'm just a PE that's tucked in a corner and consulted with as needed (lol....sort of). If I were to guess based on past experience, the contractor probably has no clue that an EOR is required or needed. They consider themselves competent. They are a dealer for the PEMB manufacturer......the contractor says I want a building, supplies the "design parameters", and the PEMB produces a design. What makes it worse is that the local code enforcement jurisdictions don't say anything about it, which gives the impression that operating in that fashion is acceptable. If the code office doesn't care, it's a bit tough to make my case!

 

[ARS97]

darthsoilguy2 - I agree 100%. This happens ALL THE TIME in my position. There are numerous headaches when dealing with customers in the coal / aggregate industry, MSHA (who essentially chases out code enforcement), and a contractor who prides itself in "designing" projects without the aid of an engineer. You wouldn't believe it.

My guess - the local code office will see a set of stamped drawings from the PEMB manufacturer and the micropile designer and call it good. I'll bet this whole issue blows over and they build it anyway. I'll keep you guys updated. Thanks for all the replies.....interesting discussion so far!

 

[JLNJ]

Who hires the special inspector when the Contractor is the Owner?

 

[ARS97]

JLNJ - Not sure I follow. The contractor and owner are separate entities. The owner should hire a third party for special inspections, but they won't, as usual.

 

[EngineeringEric]

I misunderstood, i thought you did the foundation. In that case, the engineer who did the foundation is the EOR. Foundations cannot be a delegated design component as it isn't manufactured. Your company can save the contractor money by stating that the contractor is the EOR, if the EOR has issues and has removed themselves from the project due to issues and left the contractor on the hook and now you are hired.... well maybe we see why the original foundation engineer left the picture.

Also, i agree final owner hires the SI. When the owner is a developer who is also the contractor.... then again the 'Owner' hires the SI (don't tell me about conflicts!)