Construction Trailer Utilities.

[martin888888]

We have a proposed signicant size construction trailer area. Per the owner, the area will be paved and sanitary and water services will be brought to the surface and ready for connection once trailers are moved in. We do have a trailer layout from the owner with 6' seperation between trailers. A few questions....
1) For the water, we will have 6" DIP mains running behind the trailers with 2" services required. I am thinking to install a 4"x2" DIP tee connection with a flange on the 2" side. A 2" gate valve will be connected directly to the tee. Since there is not 2" DIP we will have type k copper from gate valve and terminate 6" above ground.
a) for the copper connection to the gate valve is there a special fitting needed?
B) if we terminate it 6" above ground with a cap I am afraid of it being run over and destroyed while putting trailers in place. Anyone have any experience with this.
C) I believe type k copper is flexible and fittings are not needed?

2) for sanitary we have 8" mains running behind the trailers and will simply install a wye connection at the main and 4" lateral with it stubbed and capped flush with grade.
A) any reason to use an inserta tee instead of wye at the main. My experience is inserta tees are just used for connections to existing mains.
B) any self leveling sealant needed between where the line protrudes from the asphalt? The asphalt will be placed after the utility installation.

 

[bimr]

Doesn't the water /wastewater utility have standard drawings for the service connections? The water usage for construction trailers is usually minimal. Don't see why it would be necessary to oversize the services.

 

[Hoaokapohaku]

Must be quite the project to justify this just for the construction trailers! And an owner with mega-bucks. Let me guess, the construction is for the petroleum industry? Or, otherwise somehow energy industry?

Regarding your questions:
1) Skip the flanged tee and just tap the 6" line, install corporation cock and run the copper from there.
a) no longer needed
B) hahahahaha - just have the supplies on hand to fix it! It will happen, and whatever you might install to prevent it from happening will cost more than just fixing it when it does.
C) I believe type k copper is flexible and fittings are not needed? Ummmm, yes, and no. Yes, Type K is flexible, but larger diameters are hard to work with. Difficult to bend, difficult to solder. The biggest I've ever used in type K is 1-1/2", and bending it is no easy task - except for when you run it over. Then it bends into a flat shape quite easily! I doubt you will have much luck bending 2" Type K in any kind of designed fashion for a tight radius. Actually, I'm sure you can't. It is flexible, but easily kinks.

2) for sanitary we have 8" ...
A) any reason to use an inserta tee instead of wye at the main. NOPE
B) any self leveling sealant needed between where the line protrudes from the asphalt? NOPE

 

[BenJohnson]

Normally the owner of the water and sewer facilities will require that they put in the connections to their own specifications. On the water line you will need a meter, and a 3/4" residential service will be more than sufficient. A 2" service is used for irrigation - not something like a construction trailer.

Similarly, the sewer district or city that owns the sewer lines will have their own method for connecting to their lines. The sewer lines may be PVC or old clay pipe.

If I were a utility company listening to your specifications for service, I would be tempted to wonder if these connections were intended for a much larger purpose than construction trailer. Maybe a future workshop where wash water, etc is discharged to the sewer. For a trailer, a 2" or 3" pipe is more than sufficient. Are you sure this is temporary?

As former Public Works Director, I smell a rat. Maybe the owner is telling his engineer to oversize the service so he can avoid paying hefty connection fees in the future, or avoid some other regulation.

Oh yea, don't bring the connection points to the surface before the prep work starts on the trailer pads. Sure as hell some truck is going to run over a capped off water or sewer lateral if you bring them withing a couple feet of finished grade.

 

[martin888888]

Thanks for the responses. This is a big client with too much money by the way. Yes, the 2” service is a little large but what was asked for. The service connections will alternate trailers so each water service will serve 2 trailers (2” is still way too big, I know).
Normally I would also suggest a straight tap into the main with a copper pipe but they have had issues with them snapping off on this site. They want a 4”x2” tee with gate valve. I guess my main issue that is stumping me is how to make this water connection without the straight tap. I am thinking a DIP 4”x2” tee with flanged end with a 2” gate valve connected to it. Out of the gate valve is there a fitting to connect the 2” copper?
And Ben, no funny business, just a big client. All the lines on site are private.

 

[bimr]

Why don't you use galvanized steel pipe and fittings instead of copper considering that this is a temporary installation.

 

[cvg]

bottled water for drinking
septic tank or vault for wastewater or porta potty
above ground drisco pipe for water
you need no more than 5 gpm for your water service (just to fill the toilet tanks)

 

[martin888888]

Do they make 2" galvanized steel? Can you bring that off a 4x2" tee and gate valve? I guess i could look at Grainger or US Pipes websites and figure it out

 

[dicksewerrat]

How are you going to tap the 6 inch main?

Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.

http://WWW.amlinereast.com

 

[martin888888]

The water main is a new line. Just a simple tee installation.

 

[BenJohnson]

Since this is all private work, and the owner seems to know what he wants, I guess you are right - just need to check the details. It seems like overkill, but copper pipe generally requires a dielectric insulator where dissimilar metals meet.

Working with an installed DIP is a real pain to work with.. but you seem to know your the available fittings and possible methods connecting to the water and sewer lines. One question: have you considered schedule 40 pvc pipe for some of this work? I never really understood why people automatically choose copper. In the old days, copper was a huge improvement over galvanized pipe - which was standard practice years ago. It is a lot easier to run copper pipe in the stud walls of a house. Initially, PVC pipe was weak and prone to cracks and breaks - some old building codes do not allow it. But copper is prone to corrosion and punctures too. I never really understood why copper is used in places where PVC can be used as an equal. PVC is certainly a lot cheaper.

 

[martin888888]

Thanks. So I'm thinking the 4"x2" dip tee with a flanged end, 2" gate valve with a flange on one end and a mech joint on the service side. And then a galvanized steel or PVC connection to be capped 4-6"above ground. Should not be an issue connecting the PVC or steel to the valve huh? Just a gasket and then a mech restraint?

I know I am over thinking this, my experience is tapping a 3/4" copper service to a water line and bringing it to a meter and the forgetting about it.

 

[Hoaokapohaku]

Ok, if you don't want to tap the 6" line, then just use a cap or plug on the end with 2" inside pipe thread. Thread 2" nipple into IPT, 2" elbow facing up, another nipple long enough to be above the surface of the concrete thrust block, connect rest of the service from there.

By the way, I agree with BenJohnson about the size of the service. I was guessing the 2" line is because you may be servicing a bunch of trailers, or it may also be used to make a standpipe for filling water trucks or supplying a sprinkler system for dust control.

 

[martin888888]

Ben, just curious, why do you think working with installed dip is hard to work with?

 

[martin888888]

"thread 2" nipple into ipt". The ipt of the gate valve?

 

[bimr]

Your Contractor will probably have better comments on the installation of the piping and pipe materials. However, one would think that polyethyle pipe would be most attractive because it can be installed with a trenching machine instead of open cut.

 

[Hoaokapohaku]

What I was suggesting is an adaptation of a clean out at a pipe dead end in our local water supply specs. A copy of the detail is attached. Modify the nipple lengths as needed. Connect the rest of the service to the 2" ball valve.

 

[BenJohnson]

martin888888 -- With regard to installed DIP, it is very difficult to remove a section of installed pipe to insert an new, pre-manufactured Tee fitting. Then getting the whole new section of pipe back in the ground nice and tight (the way it came out) is a pain.

It sounds to me like you are going to weld in a new 4" pipe into the installed main without disturbing the existing DIP main. Lots of other saddles and other clever new products are available to install a tee without disturbing the existing 6" main. Oh, yea, welding onto an existing DIP in place can be tricky. Tough to get the existing, buried water main hot enough to make a strong weld. Any water in the pipe and even the cold ground are huge heat sinks.

I like the idea of talking to the contractor before you finalize plans and specs. Since this is private work, you can spec-out the system that the contractor prefers. That's true with the whole job. Amazing how many contractors have used one method in the past for certain tasks and has the skills to do the work the same way again. Otherwise he is learning on the job a new technique.

 

[Hoaokapohaku]

BenJohnson - I disagree it is difficult to remove a section of existing DIP and install new tee. All that is needed is a solid body sleeve on one side, and careful attention to the Carpenter's Rule (or pipefitter's, as the case may be), "measure twice; cut once." The tee assembly should be about 2" shorter than the gap in the existing line and a DIP spacer about 1/4" smaller than the 2" gap. One side of the MJ tee connects directly to the existing main. The spacer goes between the existing and new DIP, approximately in the center of the solid body sleeve. If the spacer is objectionable, it is still not difficult but it requires sleeves on both sides of the tee.

The above requires the water to be shut off to install. If the water cannot be shut off, the installation of the tee is still simple, but requires the use of a tapping sleeve and valve.

 

[Hoaokapohaku]

Martin - Is there something I'm not understanding here? Why the 4 x 2 tee when you have a 6" line? How do you imagine connecting the 4" tee to the 6" line?

Perhaps I have misunderstood. Why not just 6" x 6" x 6", or 6" x 6" x 4" MJ x MJ x Flange tee? Then, a 6" (or 4") flange adapter with 2" IPT connected to the tee to connect your service?

This whole post sounds like an over-reaction by your customer to a problem with previous service connections. I wonder if this "solution" began with inadequate investigation of the previous problem? I spent the first half of my career building infrastructure for highways, residential subdivisions, and commercial site development, etc. - lots and lots of ductile iron pipe with brass and copper service connections. I think I've seen pretty much everything bad that can happen, happen, but I have not seen a single service connection "snap off," unless directly hit with excavating equipment right at the connection to the main (excavator hits corporation stop). If the contractor is hitting the services with excavating equipment, your customer's solution won't solve that problem. I doubt that's the problem so I'd say the previous services most likely were somehow improperly designed or installed. Standard connections perform very well for both short and long term on countless numbers of projects, both during construction and after, so I've got to believe there was some problem with the installations that caused the problem.

Also, all my solutions have suggested some variation of a 2" inside pipe thread (IPT), because to my knowledge, there is no such standard part manufactured that connects directly to either 6" or 4" ductile iron and reduces down to a 2" MJ or flange connection. That size normally requires a threaded connection, either directly into a pipe, a saddle (required for 2" tap into 6" pipe), MJ cap or plug, or flange adapter.

Also, 2" galvanized pipe is readily available in abundance at plumbing supply houses.