Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans 8

[SlideRuleEra]

There are several ongoing threads about New Orleans in various forums, but I have not seen this issue discussed:

The flood water in the city of New Orleans is reported to be an unhealthy, disgusting mix of waste, chemicals, and who knows what else. The Corps of Engineers is quoted as saying that the city can be dewatered by the end of 2005, using the installed Wood screw pumping system. These pumps discharge into Lake Pontchartrain and Lake Borgne; both lakes eventually drain into the Gulf of Mexico.

I wonder if existing environmental pollution laws are going to be waived or ignored? Have always heard that "Dilution is not the solution".

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[vzeos]

That's a good question. I didn’t find anything on their website (below). I think the USACE is the permit granting agency and perhaps they can waive the EIA as well as other requirements. I also think the bigger problem is going to be the residual sludge cleanup.

http://www.mvd.usace.army.mil/hurricane/chr.php

 

[rmw]

I just a while ago saw an interview of some COE spokesman on the Fox News Channel, and the person stated that they were getting power to some station or the other, and evaluating the others, mentining in the process that the water from such and such canal would be pumped into the lake. Whereupon the infobabe asked him 'what about all the pollution, toxic stuff, etc., in the water' (not a verbatum quote) and he answered emphatically and with finality, "The water will be pumped into the lake." That is very close to verbatum.


rmw

 

[jdonville]

SRE,

You raise a good point. However, as of this moment, I doubt that there is any good treatment option.

Jeff


Jeffrey T. Donville, PE
TTL Associates, Inc.

http://www.ttlassoc.com

 

[LHA]

The 35th biggest city in the world and the biggest shipping port in the US (which is the largest economy in the world) is under about 10 feet of water. I doubt anyone is worried about compliance to environmental legislation. I know I wasn't when I sent my donation in on Sunday. Just get the water out of the peoples' homes, so we can see what happened to the 400+ NO municipal police officers who remain unaccounted for...not AWOL, not dead, we just plain don't know where they are. If you need more money for bigger pumps, well, I don't have much, but I have a little...I'll give what I can.

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

 

[boo1]

36 days to pump it out.

 

[francesca]

While I sympathise with lha regarding the missing, particularly for their families, I think that the point is that we should be concerned that it is only those who died due to the hurricane (and possibly the Democrats' tales of mismanagement). We do not need to pollute the Gulf of Mexico with chemicals that will make it into the sea life and onto our dinner plate causing further sickness or death.

Florida, for instance, has suffered enough with hurricanes over the last couple years. Their resorts are still being repaired from Jeanne and Ivan. Do they need oil slicks now? How about the Atlantic fishing industry, once the Gulf Stream takes the water out past the Carolinas to Ireland and Scotland?

 

[rbcoulter]

What happens to storm water before New Orleans was flooded?
What happens to storm or flood water that falls on any city in th US?
Is this case of storm water in New Orleans different than on other occassions? Is it more polluted?

 

[IFRs]

Most storm water does not have dead animal and human bodies in it, nor runoff from refinery and chemical plants.

 

[rbcoulter]

My point is that the only issue here is that someone had to make the decision to pump the water out. If New Orleans was simply a typical city that experienced a devastating flood, the flood waters would eventually recede on their own with whatever contamination that occurred (dead bodies, etc.). Little attention seems to be given to possible pollution in those cases. It seems as though we put ourselves in a moral paradox when we have a choice. What is safer? Leave New Orleans flooded or pump the water out? No doubt it is better to pump the water out.

 

[francesca]

It seems as though we put ourselves in a moral paradox when we have a choice. What is safer? Leave New Orleans flooded or pump the water out? No doubt it is better to pump the water out.

Firstly, you are making a short term judgement of risk. Secondly, it is not better to pump out untreated contaminated waste water, it's just easier.

You have hit the nail on the head of why the rest of the world reviles the US's environmental record.

 

[rbcoulter]

You are correct. It is a short term judgement of risk. I believe to wait would increase the risk of harm to the environment. Why wait? What benefit is there in waiting to pump the water?

 

[Prepakt1]

Eher exactly are these people going to treat this water,
perhaps someone can illuminate me.

Intrusion Prepakt. B.C. Canada

http://www.marineconcrete.com

 

[jimbo]

Advice from a former lifeguard/swimming instructor:

"Don't swim in the lake"

Buy a dictionary, keep it nearby and USE it. Webster's New World Dictionary of American English is recommended, and Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

 

[cvg]

This seems to be a philosophical debate. There are literally tens of thousands of acre-feet of water which would need treatment. The sewer system and treatment facilities in the area are under water and out of commission. It seems that there is no possible way that the water could be treated any time soon. However, as previously mentioned, the sludge could be removed and placed in a hazwaste site or treated somehow and this would at least remove some of the pollutants. If anybody could propose a REASONABLE method for treating this water, I would like to hear it.

 

[semo]

What are they going to treat for?

Before a judgement can be made that the water requires treatment, the pollutants must be identified and it must be determined that they exceed the limits.

The waste from the treatment plants has just been diluted by a large factor and may not exceed most of their limits.

How much oil or petroleum is in the water? Do they have booms around the stations? I don't know the answer to that so don't know if they are polluting the gulf with oil.

I'm not sure dead bodies (human or animal) qualify as toxic pollution as they naturally exist in practically every stream in America and the Gulf of Mexico.

I guess my point is that unless we know for sure (not what the media feeds us) that the water is truly contaminated, how can we say what they need or don't need to do.

 

[francesca]

I think that what we're all concerned about is that some kind of measure is made of what's in the water, what harm it can cause, and if there's a way to mitigate that. There seems to be pressure for NOLA to be pumped out ASAP. The risks need to be assessed before the pumping begins, not after.

News accounts are that the water is a rancid stew.

As of late Tuesday, EPA officials said they had not declared New Orleans hazardous, but "due to the flooding conditions, we anticipate that sewage releases could be an issue," said EPA spokeswoman Beth Sweeney.

So far, she said, there have been reports of only minor chemical spills, but EPA officials are attempting to evaluate the damage from the air.

See also this, this and this. The latter is a blog, so it's recommended only for the links.

Much of that is still speculation; the environmental threat needs to be quantified before the USACE starts throwing around dates or durations for pumping NOLA dry.

 

[rmw]

So, Franchesca, just what is your solution? Beam this water up into outer space? Or wish it would just vanish?

The sewage in it is biodegradable. Megatons of sewage is dumped into the rivers and oceans by countries all around the world. Time and sun and air will take care of it.

The earth itself puts more oil into the oceans than the NO LA area could ever think of doing.

Dead bodies in waterways has already been mentioned by semo

By the time any of this water gets to Ireland or Scotland (or Spain or Africa) it will be so diluted so that it will barely be discernable if at all.

We as engineers are supposed to be problem solvers, not hand wringers.

The water is polluted, and that can't be denied. However, reasonable solutions to the problem would be appreciated.

What would you want done if your home was up to the rafters in water (of any purity)?

rmw

 

[SlideRuleEra]

Here is a possible compromise:

There was about one week from the beginning of large scale flooding until pumping started. A rough environmental investigation may have given an indication whether one of the two "lakes", Pontchartrain or Borgne, was better suited to handle the pollution. Then, depending on exactly how the pumps are configured, it may have been necessary to "trash" only one lake, instead of both.

Sure, pumping would certainly take longer, but that is what compromises are all about. Anyway cleanup of the sludge, that RGasEng has pointed out, will probably lag far behind the speed that water can be pumped.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[francesca]

rmw,

My husband's best friend's house is up to the ceiling in water. He has lost all but a few changes of clothes, his compter, and his car. He is in no great hurry to get back to NOLA; all he's concerned about is if he can get into a university so that his studies don't have to be on hold for an entire semester (or two). He's also quite sad that Lake Ponchartrain has only just been cleaned up, and now they're going to pollute it all over again. I've heard another NOLA resident say the same thing.

I guess it's a good thing that NOLA residents and the EPA don't share your feelings.

We owe it to our children and their children not to do "what we can get away with" to the environment; we owe it to them to do the best we can for the environment.

I don't have any solutions to the problem because that is not my field. I believe that time should be taken to assess what can be done in mitigation before it all starts. If the city is to be pumped, however, at least we have control over the water's exit from the city and some kind of treatment, however crude, could be applied.