Chunks of Concrete Falling from the Gardiner Expressway in Toronto 1

[ajk1]

Some weeks ago when the third piece of concrete fell from the Gardiner Expressway in Toronto, I was thiking of writing to the newspaper and suggesting that someone is not doing their job if it has gor to this stage. I would have thought that after the 1st piece fell, a survey of the whole expressway soffit would have been undertaken as soon as possible without delay, given the known chloride contamination of the concrete and its history. When the 2nd piece fell a few weeks later, that was surely confirmation that such a survey was urgent. When the 3rd piece fell surly it was apparent that this probelm was a danger to the public and was ongoing. Now a 4th piece has fallen.

I must ask: how was the maintenance allowed to be so negelected as to reach this stage and why was the reponse so slow? Am I being unfair or do others see it the same way? Just interested. Public safety is at stake. How many more pieces will fall until someone is injured? I guess Toronto city council prefers to deal with banning plastic bags than with public safety.

 

[Ron]

ajk1...perhaps it is time to go on record and let the responsible agency know your thoughts. If you are a P.Eng., isn't it required that you act if you perceive a danger to the public?

 

[ajk1]

I am a P.Eng, but so are many others, some of whom are closer to the situation than I and know the facts whic=h I do not. It is they who should be speaking up, if there is soemthing amiss, as appears to me as an outsider may be the case. I will give further thoughts to writing to the newspapaer, if it won't get me into trouble with PEO.

 

[Ron]

ajk1...I agree. I didn't mean to imply it would be solely your responsibility, and you are correct that other P.Eng's who are closer to the issue should be speaking up.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Write a letter to the Editor of your local newspaper exclaiming the ignorance of your local officials. Might want to keep the P.Eng to yourself - your call.

 

[hawkaz]

This same thing happened in Wrigley Field in Chicago a couple years ago (concrete falling). They determined that there was no concern for failure and put nets in place until the baseball season was over. During the off-season, they fixed everything. Toronto may be assessing the situation right now to determine the best course of action.

Be careful with how you report this. Our ethical obligation goes both ways. If we act without finding out all the facts, we could create a negative situation when this may already be in the process of being resolved. I believe our obligation is to approach the Public Works department to find out what is being done first. If a satisfactory answer is not provided, then perhaps take it another step (i.e. City manager or City council). If you still don't get a response, then escalate.

A case study for an engineer opening their mouth without know the facts was on 9-11. Certain engineers rushed in front of the cameras claiming design flaws... They were wrong, but the damage was done. Much of the public believes those claims to this date. Once the Jennie is out of the bottle, you can't get it back in.

 

[sgengr]

sgengr (Structural)

I would call the local Department of Transportation Division and kindly inform them of the situation and ask them if they are aware of the situation. That way, you will have done your job and you will find out if they plan on taking any action. I had a similar situation and that is how I handled it and they were greatful that I informed them and I saw results within a couple of day.

 

[ajk1]

I can asure you that all the appropriate people at the City know about it. It has been in the newspapers and on the TV almost non-stop. It just seems to me that there must be a bunch of bureaucrats who are slow to react, and politicians who never wanted to spend the money annually to keep it in repair becasue it is not the sort of thing that gets them attention and puffs up their chests. Hope I am wrong. I read in a Toronto tabloid today that the head of some safety council said there was nothing dangerous about the situation. How that can be is a puzzlement to me, if someone is driving below and a chunk of concrete hits the car (as happened this week - fortunatley it was not a convertible). I hope the tabloid report is wrong. Where is Michael Moore when we ned him?

 

[GalileoG]

I drive under and on the Gardiner everyday. This bridge is an eye sore, time to do away with it and start a Big Dig Toronto.

And the deteriorating condition of the Gardiner is well known. As ajk1 said, the city knows about it and every now and then you have talk about what to do with the Gardiner. Toronto needs federal dollars to repair and/or replace the Gardiner and it's not getting any from Ottawa.

 

[asixth]

seems like a few issues lately. Stage collapse at radiohead, mall collapse somewhere else in canada, gardiner spalling???

 

[ajk1]

I have been involved with parking garage design, investigation and repair since 1983, as well as being heavily involved with CSA S413 Technical Committee on the Design of New Parking Garages. The corrosion mechanosm has been known for a long time and that once the concrete is chloride contaminated, the rebar will continue to corrode and the expansive corrosio products will spall the concrete unless measures such as cathodic protection is installed, and even then there is no guarantee that there will not be some spalls.

I do not understand:
a) how it was allowed to get to this state;
b) why the City was so slow in responding to the situation whe the first piece of concrete fell;
c) how it can be deemed safe below if pieces of concrete are falling off

I realize that the Gardiner may someday be replaced, but it isn't going to happen soon and in the meantime public safety must come first. But I read in the paper yesterday that the politicians say they are not going to embark on the extebnsive repair programme that is required because they do not have the money. Somehow they have the money for other less important things.

Maybe this can serve as a lesson for other municipalities and governments. You either pay a little money now to keep things in repair and protected, or you spend a lot more later.

 

[BAretired]

It would seem prudent and not terribly expensive to provide temporary nets to catch the chunks of falling concrete before they reach the ground. If they do not at least take that measure, the City of Toronto could be facing serious litigation not to mention a terrible tragedy.


BA

 

[dcarr82775]

The state DOT in my area installs plywood on the underside of the bridge deck with wood cribbing to the top of the bottom flange of the steel girders to keep the concrete from falling out onto the road below. Not ideal, but it has been in some locations for 5+ years and the wood looks to be in pretty good shape.

 

[ajk1]

dcarr - that is covering up a problem...but better than doing nothing. Anyway, the Gardiner expressway is an elevated road many miles long, so it woul be quite a project to put netting or plywood over the entire soffit. And it would not stop the corrosion and concrete spalling which will eventually have a significant effect on the strength of the road.