British Columbia site C hydro 24

[GregLocock]

https://thenarwhal.ca/bc-site-c-dam-16-billion-horgan/

$8 billion overrun because they started construction before the geo was in. Projected lifetime income of the dam is $2 Billion.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[JohnRBaker]

Yes, but dams serves more purposes than power generation. They're also part of the water management effort including flood control as well as water storage for irrigation and residential/industrial/commercial water usage.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[dik]

and flooding pristine countryside, too...I've attached a file on what Manitoba Hydro did the an area of Northern Manitoba...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[dik]

and another... the lakes with the shading have been damaged. Local lakes without damage and pristine show up 'black' in this Google satellite picture.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[miningman]

Well I lived in Northern Manitoba from 1975 until 1985 and never saw any evidence of ecological damage. Plus spent about 2 years living in Revelstoke BC , with the main dam just about three miles north of town, flooding a length of the valley for about 60 miles......... beautiful pristine area with great hunting and fishing. WHats the problem??

 

[waross]

A couple of counter points, John.
Water storage and flood control:
I understand that those functions are and will be addressed by the long existing W.A.C Bennett Dam.
Site "C" is to be a run of the river dam, and will not add much value in the way of water storage and flood control.
"irrigation" The net impact on farmland will probably be negative. A lot of farm land will be flooded.
Nothing new here for the B.C. N.D.P. party.
In years past:
A pulp mill was closing as it was becoming uneconomical to operate.
The NDP formed a commission to investigate.
The answer was simple arithmetic:
Compare unit costs with fixed costs and it was apparent that doubling the size of the mill would allow the mill to again be economical to operate.
Spend millions of government money to rebuild and expand the mill.
Oh, Oh. The real reason that the mill was uneconomical was that it had used up all of the close in pulp-wood, and increased haul distances had rendered the mill uneconomical.
With the doubled demand for pulpwood, the unanticipated consequence was that very shortly the haul distances increased and the mill again became uneconomical.
Again the same political party:

The fast ferry scandal was a political affair in the late 1990s relating to the construction of three fast ferries by the Canadian provincial crown corporation BC Ferries under direction of the Executive Council of British Columbia, headed at the time by Premier Glen Clark of the New Democratic Party.

In addition to major delays and cost overruns, the ferries never fully met their original specifications, and only operated briefly in a reduced capacity, before being auctioned off at a substantial loss.
.....
When the fast ferries were sold, the provincial budget declared a $52 million loss.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[dik]

Unfortunately the file that shows the damage is too large to load... I'll try to do a couple of snapshots.... Northern Manitoba is a pretty big place... the Google map shows the area of damage.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[NorthCivil]

Canada. where there is so much land, we will rape and pillage vast swathes of it for very little economic return.

Or in the case of site C, negative return.

see the tar sands, forestry in BC, mining in the arctic.

Just because there are trees on the side of the road as you drive the #1, it doesnt mean the ecosystem hasnt completely collapsed.

I've heard stories that back before the white man came, blind old ladies were sent down to the river to catch salmon with a sharp stick.

I've cast plenty of rods myself but never pulled up a decent pink fish.

only when the last tree is felled, the last mine is closed, the final bit of tar is sucked from the sand, will we finally wake up and realize what a mess we have made of the place.

 

[1503-44]

A serious consequences of dams is that they trap silt and can allow beach erosion and salt water intrusion into marsh areas along the coast, as that silt can no longer replace the eroded beach areas. Not to mention that silt deposited from flooding rivers is a natural fertiliser for farmland. The Egyptians prayed for the Nile to flood every year. Today we rely on chemical fertilisers that pollute rivers with its runoff.

 

[miningman]

and I dare say , EVERYONE in the world eats better today than any of the ancient egyptians and way less people lose their lives to flooding. What that tell you??

 

[JohnRBaker]

If zoning laws had prevented people from building on flood plains, things would be very different. Farm land wasn't the problem, we could pay the farmer for his lost crops once every five or six years and still save money compared to having to build flood control dams and levees, and when a levee fails, having to subsidize the rebuilding of residential and commercial properties.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[1503-44]

That the water is crap near farmlands and we're building dams so they can farm more land and use more water.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I guess I referring more to what the situation is along the Mississippi River, and to a lessor extent, the Missouri and Ohio Rivers.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[ATSE]

Dams serve useful purposes. USBR sells these arguments well.
However, a dam is of course not the right solution for every situation.
And dams have both advantages and disadvantages. Just like solar. And fossil fuels. And ...
A better engineering discussion would not just involve jabs and selective case histories, but at an acknowledgement of both sides.

This particular situation sounds more like a political failure, but it is not a "classic" engineering failure, and unfortunately these things happen routinely in my home state of California. Most nobody pays much attention to these, but superflop projects like the bullet train from bushwack to tumbleweed (mere $100 billion) gather more notice. [Political aside: People are just people, and have short memories.]

 

[1503-44]

I recognize that dams have their uses and advantages, however, "What's the problem?", required an answer describing what a few of the problems are. I gave an example or two of poorly thought out, relatively minor ones, in a very, very long list of others. The list is not short in the least. Sometimes they even fail in an engineering sense, as you have seen discussed in other threads of this forum, and to near astronomical consequences as well. Thinking about this a bit more, it occurs to me that the use of dams in mining processes probably represent the worst offenders of all in regard to poor engineering, ultimate failure and consequential extreme damages in relation to loss of life, property and release of seriously toxic compounds.

 

[miningman]

Well Im not sure I come anywhere near close to agreeing with 1503 with regards to mining dams buts its ironic that he posts this on the same day that the Brazilians published this.

https://www.mining.com/vale-drills-...lls-caused-brumadinho-dam-collapse-police-say

Not an engineering failure per se ,but a complete disregard of common sense and /or failure to ask for engineering assistance.

 

[bimr]

Dams are also an ecological disaster. Fish can't pass dams which leads to fish extinction. Periodic floods that formerly replenished the silt in delta are eliminated and the delta's disappear along with numerous bird species.

Link

 

[miningman]

The amount of totally erroneous information being posted to this thread is getting excessive!! BIMR I guess you've never seen the fish ladders that are now built into all Canadian dams to allow the salmon to migrate to their spawning grounds??

 

[dik]

and mining can be, too...

Work to remediate the abandoned Ruttan Mine in northern Manitoba is underway following the awarding of a $45-million contract to a Manitoba firm as part of an ongoing commitment to protect the environment and to clean up abandoned mine sites, Conservation and Climate Minister Sarah Guillemard announced today.

and the taxpayer will likely pick up the ticket... not the shareholders.


Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[bimr]

Yes, I have seen "fish ladder", a mechanical engineers wet dream.

"Fish ladders often work well for river herring on smaller Atlantic rivers. Fish ladders at dams on the West Coast’s giant Columbia River system allow large numbers of salmon and also non-native shad to pass, but despite this apparent success contemporary runs of salmon are likely an order of magnitude lower than historic abundances."

Blocked Migration: Fish Ladders On U.S. Dams Are Not Effective

Fishways on rivers in the U.S. Northeast are failing, with less than 3 percent of one key species making it upriver to their spawning grounds, according to a new study. The researchers’ findings provide a cautionary tale for other nations now planning big dam projects.

Even if the "fish ladders" worked, dams are still an ecological disaster. Example: Loss of bird nesting sites in the delta.