Blue well water 6

[beach004]

There's been one previous thread on this, but it was not dispositive, so I am trying for help. I live in Piedmont North Carolina, on a well: Unfiltered, untreated. It's been tested, none of the numbers out of whack, pH not low; but the water, when seen in a white five gallon bucket, has a distinctly blue tint; and the toilets and sink will get a blue ring around the drain and the rim, over time, that nothing, not even muriatic acid, wants to dissolve--I have to scrub it out with lavastone. I do have copper pipes; the house is 14 years old. Anyone have a clue?
Beach004

 

[beach004]

Thanks for the correction. It will take Na2CO3, I'm thinking. Some sort of renewable set-up, don't know if it has to be backwashed or some such. If so, that in turn may overload my septic system. I think I need professional help on this one...

 

[rdippm]

Hello, beach004.

I think that the problem is directly in the water source (the well in this case). Any color in water may be dangerous for healt. Blue colored water can be contaminated by cyanids. Better make a complete lab analysis and if there are still doubts, submit the problem to Enviromental Authorities.

 

[bimr]

Cyanide has only been observed in groundwater at industrial sites or mining locations. Cyanides are generally not persistent when released to water. The form of cyanide at these polluted sites is typically an iron-cyanide complex since iron is ubiquitous.

The chemistry of cyanide is relatively complex so it is difficult to generalize the fate of cyanide released into the environment.

The absence of iron in groundwater would indicate that cyanide is not present.

http://www.epa.gov/OGWDW/contaminants/dw_contamfs/cyanide.html

 

[beach004]

Thanks.

 

[mbmarsh]

I have exactly this same problem! I see neutralizing systems for sale, $800 or so for the tank and backwash control. Is this a DIY installation, or would I need a plumber to do the hookup? My neighbors have paid nearly $3000 for an installed similar unit--that seems like a lot for labor, unless I'm missing something.
Tx.
MBMarsh

 

[bimr]

First off, a neutralizing filter will not do anything for you unless your pH is below 7. The neutralizing filter will barely bring the pH up above 7.

What is needed is a small chemical feed injection system to add sodium carbonate. That will raise the pH. A chemical feed system should cost less than a neutralizing filter.

A neutralizing filter should cost around $500 or so and it should take about an hour for a qualified person to install it. You can do it yourself if you are familiar with standard plumbing techniques such as soldering or crimping PEX.

If you paid $3,000, then you were a victim of an unscrupulous salesman.

 

[mbmarsh]

My pH is 6 or 6.1. Calcite should be able to fix that, I'm thinking. But if the carbonate injector would fit in my crawl space beside the pressure tank, it would save me having to put the neutralizer tank in my crowded garage. Do you have any links to injectors? It's not something I've heard of before.
MBM

 

[bimr]

A local supplier or sales agent should be able to get you a peristalic pump similiar to these advertised online. I would go for a peristalic pump over the electronic pump.

http://www.pwgazette.com/feedsystems.htm

http://www.watergroup.com/pdf folder/Duro Catalog/Duro 127_148_ChemPumps.pdf

http://www.watergroup.com/stenner_series_45_chemical_pump.htm

http://www.majicwater.com/chemical_feeder.htm

 

[mbmarsh]

The pump approach is attractive, but access to it would be a problem; I'm going to have to go with the neutralizer. All the local vendors I have called want at least $2500 to install just a neutralizer, not including a softener. As bimr writes, there are lots of neutralizers for sale in the $500 range. I don't feel competent to install one on my own; but if it's as simple (for a plumber) as it sounds, could I just hire a local plumber by the hour and have him hook up what I've bought? He would probably have to supply some small parts, cut-offs and such; but that should still be less than the vendors are quoting me. I think...!
MBM

 

[aliciam]

I am from the Gulf Coast area. Thieves around here will strip a building of copper wire, tubing and pipe. I have heard that you can sell it for money. My point is that maybe you could sell your copper plumbing to help offset the cost of replacing the pipes. You may want to look into this and take that into account when doing a cost analysis.

 

[mbmarsh]

Good thing I haven't provided my address! ;-)

I'm going back and forth like a metronome on this topic. One minute I favor hiring a plumber; the next I think I'll go for the security of a known vendor who will stand behind his work. I know a good vendor; I don't (yet) know a good plumber.

 

[mbmarsh]

I'm reluctantly considering another approach: Ripping out the copper and putting in PEX. I'm on a crawl space, two story house, have one upstairs bathroom that is rarely used. How horrible a mess will it make to do this? My wife is not enthusiastic about the notion. What are things to consider?

 

[cvg]

Raising the ph of the water will slow down further corrosion but will not restore your old pipes. If your existing pipe is already corroded and in poor shape, what options do you have?

PEX is generally less intrusive than rigid pipe and quite easy to install. It is generally easier and less intrusive for remodeling projects than rigid pipe is.

http://www.ppfahome.org/pex/pubspex.html

 

[mbmarsh]

A point to be considered, indeed; much depends then, on what shape my pipes are in; I hope to have that looked at shortly. One halfway measure: The upstairs bathroom having never been much used, the pipes up there might be in good shape now, and likely to remain that way; I could consider going with PEX for the downstairs, which would of course be easier to access, and let the upstairs go. If money were no problem...

 

[cvg]

also consider the potential risk of a water leak occurring upstairs. The pipes are just as old and just as corroded as they are downstairs. They will remain under pressure. If they spring a leak you will flood not only the upstairs but the downstairs as well.

 

[mbmarsh]

"Just as old," yes; but I doubt "just as corroded." No one has ever done much living upstairs, just our kids when they visit. So the water has mostly just stood in those pipes.

Once the acid in that water has "eaten" all the copper it can hold, it should no longer be corrosive, I should think, and so there should be less damage. For example, if the water's acid were HCl, then reaction with oxidized copper should produce CuCl or CuCl2; but I could easily be wrong.

 

[bimr]

The copper is probably in the form of CuHCO3, an insoluble particulate, hence the blue water.

I would agree that it is likely that the corrosion will diminish over time when water is standing in the tubing.

 

[cvg]

the water in all of your pipes has the same corrosion potential and it makes very little difference how often you use the upstairs fixtures. Corrosion of the pipes is caused mainly by the low ph of the water, not by running water through them. Downstairs might be a little better because you flush the sediment out of those pipes more often.

 

[mbmarsh]

Well, let's see. if it's CuHCO3 (and I really was curious about that) then it's coming from CO2 dissolving in the water, forming carbonic acid; which then reacts with the copper to form that deposit. But, as it does so, the acid is removed from that particular "pipe-full" of water. So, until that pipe is replaced, the water in the pipe no longer has corrosion potential.

But anyway: The plumber just left; he examined the copper pipes, said they were thinning, but not severely; but he gave me a price for PEX throughout the house that was quite reasonable; so my thinking is, let's go that route, and avoid the tank in the garage with its maintenance, and the increased water hardness, and just get it over with.

 

[bimr]

Your premise on the decrease in corrosion potential is in agreement with the copper corrosion information stated in AWWA's Water Quality and Treatment.

Note that it also stated in that book that an increase in the free chlorine residual may accelerate copper corrosion.