Avgas storage concerns 1

[thruthefence]

I have a question about the long term storage of avgas, specifically 100LL.

My employer recently purchased an aircraft hangar with two fuel farms, One Jet Fuel, and one avgas. The capacity of the avgas tank is 3000 gallons. The hangar was built, and the avgas tank was serviced to capacity in 1990, and was used to fuel the recip "hobby" aircraft until 1992, when a tornado damaged the facility, and several recip aircraft, which were subsequently sold, with 400 gal of 100LL remaining in the tank.

Flash forward to 2011. My company operates a turbocharged twin, a normally aspirated twin, and a recip helicopter. A decision has to be made concerning the remaining fuel, which has now been in the ground for 20 years.

Is there a objective lab test that can be performed to determine if the fuel is still usable? Anything in the literature on this subject?

The tank is monitored, and there is no free water, the fuel appears bright blue, & smells like "fresh" avgas.

My contention is that it needs to be disposed of. Err on the side of caution.

One of the pilot feels we could just top the tank, and whatever sins the fuel has accumulated will be "diluted" (!!) Maybe get away with this in a little Cessna single engine, but the turbocharged twin runs 40" hg MAP at take off power.

I would like to approach the Boss with a lab report,or something on paper, that justifies writing off $2500.00 in fuel plus hazmat disposal fees.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[btrueblood]

contact these guys?

http://www.intertek.com/testing/aviation-fuel/

 

[BigInch]

Are you seriously talking about risking your aircraft, never mind someone's life, to save $1000+/- USD on 20 year old gasoline??? You can probably burn it in some old car or something you know.

Southwest labs told us to turn over all aviation products within and not to plan on storing it for more than 2 years 6 mo to be safe, but if there is no microbes growing in it and it's clear and you can get it without the corrosion particles and mud on the bottom of the tank and you filter it (through your kidneys first) you can probably get away with it, but I'd think you're nuts. Jack Daniels is a whole lot better. I doubt you could get someone out to test it for less than $ 1000 anyway. Try the old car plan.

Good Luck!



From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."

 

[thruthefence]

"you can get it without the corrosion particles and mud on the bottom of the tank and you filter it (through your kidneys first) you can probably get away with it, but I'd think you're nuts. Jack Daniels is a whole lot better. "

And if I wanted a condescending, flippant response, I would have asked for one, and not sought council on a professional engineering forum. You, "BigInch" obviously have nothing to add, except "so & so told me........", so keep your unhelpful comments to yourself, please.

I have been tasked to find "chapter & verse", to explain to non technical people why the fuel must be disposed of. "Burning it in an old car" is not only illegal tax wise, it is unethical as well, tantamount to stealing assets from your employer.

Thanks to btrueblood for the helpful link.

 

[btrueblood]

fence,

Well, thanks for the star...but BigInch is not really being that flippant. It is a much bigger risk to be airborne when an engine fails, than to be stuck along a highway somewhere. From anecdotal experience, both the tax implications and the stealing from the employer can both be dealt with only a bit of fuss. An old friend of the family always fueled his diesel pickup from his trucks full of Jet A; it was his business so it wasn't stealing, and he kept a record and paid his state and federal road taxes to keep things square with the government. He also had a letter from the state highway board to show to any trooper that wanted to sample his fuel and check for dye color (pretty rare they do that to passenger/light trucks anyway).

 

[thruthefence]

Yeah, maybe I have a bit of thin skin sometimes, but this ain't my first airplane rodeo: BSME back in the Pleistocene; 40 years in Aviation maintenance, A&P, IA, (formally) DAR, DME; SE land, ME land, rotorcraft flight ratings.

No way I'd fly an aircraft with the fuel in question, (note my "!!" in parentheses in my OP).

As I said, I just need to justify my condemnation of company property with facts, not hearsay.

 

[BigInch]

Wow. Lots of alphabet soup. I'm suitably impressed with your tying skills. Ya. I got my first rating in 1969 BTW.

I don't see any way in hell how you think I'm telling you to steal it, or not pay taxes on it. I really don't care if you want to put it in your airplanes, or drink it yourself, or sell it to minors. That's your business. And you obviously don't know Southwest Labs and certainly not anything about my personal involvement with multi-BILLION dollar military fuel storage projects for over 10 years. I'm simply passing on to you some valuable advice I happen to be party to, that a Mideast government had to pay millions for, and it's totally free. Isn't that what you wanted? Hope you got all the answers you wanted now, ...'cause I won't be giving you any more.

Thin skinned? You off your medication or something?

From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."

 

[thruthefence]

"And you obviously don't know Southwest Labs"

Exactly so. How about providing a link, a phone number, a point of contact? This is what I asked for.

A google search for "Southwest Labs" , well "NO JOY".............

"my personal involvement with multi-BILLION dollar military fuel storage projects for over 10 years"

I am familiar with how the military handles this sort of thing. They simply dispose of it, without any worry about the consequences to the taxpayer. As a youngster, I was personally involved in the burying of three perfectly serviceable, sealed-in-the-can T-53 Turbine helicopter engines simply because the engine count on hand didn't match the unit's paperwork.

Additionally, Id be surprised to know that the military these days maintains ANY stocks of 100LL avgas.

"I'm simply passing on to you some valuable advice I happen to be party to, that a Mideast government had to pay millions for, and it's totally free."

My comment on this, is that I had always believed that the Oil Sheiks were a bit more financially astute. They certainly didn't get their moneys worth.

"...'cause I won't be giving you any more. "

Here's some of your "million dollar advice";

"filter it (through your kidneys first)"

 

[swall]

thruthefence--maybe you could contact an aircraft fuel distributor in your area and offer to give it to them. They would be in a position to do the necessary testing and re-blending for resale. Would save you the disposal costs.

 

[btrueblood]

Southwest Research Institute. A bit overkill for a fuel test, but they likely have a lot of data on fuel aging.

 

[thruthefence]

Thanks, guys all of you, for your help. The local fuel farm repair & service guys had someone come out & sampled the tank & changed all the filters & coalessors (which were fine) and will get back to the boss with the data. Expert opinion is that the risk-to-benefit figures don't add up. I think everyone knew that anyway.

Surely I'm not the only guy who has had to justify a learned "opinion" with the minutia of printed technical data to the "suits"?

 

[ewh]

Nutshell - "Southwest Research Institute (SwRI), headquartered in San Antonio, Texas, is one of the oldest and largest independent, nonprofit, applied research and development (R&D) organizations in the United States. Founded in 1947 by oil businessman Thomas Slick Jr., SwRI provides contract research and development services to government and industrial clients."

I have to agree that they may be overkill for this situation.

Technically, the glass is always full.

 

[BigInch]

I don't know. After all there is 400 gal of OLD fuel here we're talking about.

THEY MIGHT WANT IT FOR THEIR COLLECTION!!!


From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."