Air India 787 crashes on take off 7

[LittleInch]

A full 787-8 has crashed shortly after take off in ahmedabad.

Basically barely got off the ground then look like its trying to land in this video.

Air India ordered to carry out ‘additional maintenance actions’ on Boeing 787-8/9 fleet – as it happened

India’s ministry of civil aviation orders airline to carry out safety inspections on fleet with GE Aerospace GEnx engines after crash of flight 171

www.theguardian.com

Specualtion that they pulled flaps up instead of gear up and basically didn't have enough lift so it looks like a gentle stall right into a built up area.

Looks to be flaps up, slats/ nose flaps down and gear down which is very odd.

 

[LittleInch]

I have a sick feeling. Don't know how to comment to be honest.

I'm with you. Just can't see how this was accidental. The CVR is not great by the look of things. "Why did you cut off? " "It wasn't me. " Well, there's only two of them in the cockpit....

It's why they need video as well. That simply must be the next recommendation, cockpit and ground video of every single take off and landing done on HD from the side and endof the runway.

 

[LittleInch]

One of the pilots posts photos of himself with a face mask. That's not a sign of good mental health.

Which one?

 

[TugboatEng]

The younger one. Pilots universally rejected the use of face masks early on during COVID any pilot that does sport them is an outlier. Face masks are a safety hazard.

https://www.ifalpa.org/media/3728/22sab04-use-of-masks-in-the-cockpit.pdf

 

[Roga50]

First pull the switch out, then move it.

Not a motion that's likely to happen by accident.

The report noted that on 737's there was an AD where apparently some of the switches did NOT have the "pull switch out" locking feature. The report speculates that a similar model switch is used on the 787, so did these switches actually have the locking feature?

Specifically, this paragraph:

The FAA issued Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) No. NM-18-33 on December 17, 2018, regarding the potential disengagement of the fuel control switch locking feature. This SAIB was issued based on reports from operators of Model 737 airplanes that the fuel control switches were installed with the locking feature disengaged. The airworthiness concern was not considered an unsafe condition that would warrant airworthiness directive(AD) by the FAA. The fuel control switch design, including the locking feature, is similar on various Boeing airplane models including part number 4TL837-3D which is fitted in B787-8aircraft VT-ANB. As per the information from Air India, the suggested inspections were not carried out as the SAIB was advisory and not mandatory. The scrutiny of maintenance records revealed that the throttle control module was replaced on VT-ANB in 2019 and 2023.However, the reason for the replacement was not linked to the fuel control switch. There has been no defect reported pertaining to the fuel control switch since 2023 on VT-ANB.

 

[stcbus]

The younger one. Pilots universally rejected the use of face masks early on during COVID any pilot that does sport them is an outlier. Face masks are a safety hazard.

https://www.ifalpa.org/media/3728/22sab04-use-of-masks-in-the-cockpit.pdf

That’s article also gives mitigations and clearly states,

“use of face masks
in the cockpit while operating the aircraft should be according to an operator’s risk assessment”

So, not what you said.

 

[IRstuff]

Not a motion that's likely to happen by accident.

Unless the locking mechanism was removed or defeated. The time delta of 1 sec for both to go to CUTOFF positions would suggest near simultaneous deactivations, requiring deliberate intent and practice to overcome the position lock, or the position locks weren't functional.

Interestingly, the switches were returned to RUN with 4 second separation

 

[TugboatEng]

What is the update rate on the data? I think that a 1 second difference is not near simultaneous. A falling object would hit both within less time. A human manually actuating the switches would take about 1 second. If the data update is once a second we can't rule out simultaneous actuation.

As for masks, they were given the option because wearing a mask is risky and needs to be included in the risk assessment. Every pilot with half a brain opted to not add that risk.

We're always looking for ways to identify mental health issues in people. One very outward indication is a person that covers their face in public.

 

[stcbus]

.

We're always looking for ways to identify mental health issues in people. One very outward indication is a person that covers their face in public.

They weren’t outdoors and clearly had it brought down for the situation. In any case the only people doing that these days is ICE. I do agree they’re all mentally ill.

 

[thebard3]

What is the update rate on the data? I think that a 1 second difference is not near simultaneous. A falling object would hit both within less time. A human manually actuating the switches would take about 1 second. If the data update is once a second we can't rule out simultaneous actuation.

As for masks, they were given the option because wearing a mask is risky and needs to be included in the risk assessment. Every pilot with half a brain opted to not add that risk.

We're always looking for ways to identify mental health issues in people. One very outward indication is a person that covers their face in public.

I think the FDR Timestamps would be within a period of a few milliseconds or lesd

 

[TugboatEng]

I'm sure that's true for the control systems but may not be true for data recording. I recently subscribed to remote engine telemetry for my fleet and the recording rate is 1hz.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

India and asia it is not unusual to wear a face mask mainly due to air pollution. This occurred before covid and still does.

Depending on the destination i still have mask wearers on board in europe.

As for during covid it was normal for masks on when cockpit door open then off after locked.

There are multiple sampling rates for the flight data depending what it is.

.

 

[stcbus]

India and asia it is not unusual to wear a face mask mainly due to air pollution. This occurred before covid and still does.

Depending on the destination i still have mask wearers on board in europe.

As for during covid it was normal for masks on when cockpit door open then off after locked.

There are multiple sampling rates for the flight data depending what it is.

.

Did you really expect someone like him to know that?

 

[verymadmac]

I have found SAIBs to be an interesting source of information, they cover a much broader range of items that you see covered by AD (my favorite being one stating you can't prove compliance to FAR 23 by copying an existing type certified design). But a its not uncommon for items get elevated from SAIB to AD.

blancolirio covers the pilot operation here of the throttles in take off here

I definitely don't the cut off switch location reassuring in terms of pilot interface design.
It would be unfortunate if the investigation found that pilots had a habit of resting their hand on the cut off switches and with turbulence during take off had worn the switch protect out. I wonder what the inspect requirements are for these?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The switches on the a220 are in the same place and have semicircle guards higher than them.

In my experience nobody goes near them apart from engine start and shut down.

It's a pretty firm pull to unlock them and hold and move.


No I didn't expect him, or for that matter med Europe Scots travelers either to know it's normal.

 

[LittleInch]

I'm firmly of the opinion that you go for the simplest explanation which for me is that the Captain as PM turned the engines off by mistake or design. I'm not buying all this accidental action of the switches by something falling or dodgy switches.

They will know who was flying by the force applied on the controls.

Then turn back to run first the no 1 switch is closest to the captain.

I can't believe you would rest your hands anywhere near such important switches. My guess is that they are talking to other pilots who flew with both the captain and FO to see what happened on earlier flights or what was their habits.

This design and location has been around now since the 707. If there was something systematic about this you would have had planes falling out of the sky on a regular basis. I do think the standard fuel cut off switches should be inhibited once airborne or require more than just lift and push.

There is more to come out for sure but glad they finally put some of the wilder theories to bed. That picture of the RAT out before they even left the edge of the airfield is chilling. They never stood a chance.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Just a clarification.

Flight data monitoring FDM.

Is a different system and use than flight data recording.

Recording is for post accident analysis. Monitoring I can't list the range of uses it used for from aircraft maintenance through quality auditing of pilot performance and compliance with SOP.

The sampling rates are different.

Also the fdm gets downloaded via various methods depending if there is a red trigger none compliance. It can be technicians turn up on stand and you don't know that anything is wrong through to getting a phone call from the flight safety officer because some GPS spamming has triggered an unsafe alt warning at fl400 flying over turkey and you forgot to do a report on it 4 hours later when you landed.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Here is a220 switches

We also have a tracker ball left and right next to them