Extending Service Intervals
Extending Service Intervals
(OP)
I am interested in extending the fluid change intervals for an old design of motorcyle. It was designed with late 1930's technology and has very frequent fluid changes recommended.
Currently the specifications are -
Engine - SAE20W/50 2.3L change interval 2500Km
Transmission - SAE 20W/50 1.1L change interval 10000Km
Final Drive - 90EP 110 ML change interval 10000Km
I am aware that a change to synthetics may allow us to extend change intervals, but wonder what the downsides are?
Currently the specifications are -
Engine - SAE20W/50 2.3L change interval 2500Km
Transmission - SAE 20W/50 1.1L change interval 10000Km
Final Drive - 90EP 110 ML change interval 10000Km
I am aware that a change to synthetics may allow us to extend change intervals, but wonder what the downsides are?
RE: Extending Service Intervals
You say it's an old design instead of an antique, and if you're spinning up enough miles to raise the issue it must be a daily driver. Are we talking about a Ural here? Putting western synthetics into a bike designed to run on Soviet Swill(TM) lubricants would be ridiculously excessive, IMO ;). Give it generic lubricants and it will last much longer than you'll want it to.
RE: Extending Service Intervals
Additionally, advice from other owners and even various importers is all very contradictory. There is a great deal of confusion resulting from the differences between the varying Ural engines, Dnepr engines and BMW /2 engines. Same with the gearboxes.
For example, I have been variously advised to use engine oil, ATF or 75/90 gearbox oil. At least with the final drive the recommendations were to stick with the standard 90EP or go to a newer 90/120.
If I can find a solution that will safely allow interval extensions to say 5000 km for the engine and 15000 for the transmission and final drive, then I'll be happy. A solution that will turn it into a quarterly event will have me over the moon!
RE: Extending Service Intervals
The synthetics are generally thinner in terms of what you would see and "pouring viscosity" but make up the 50w rating with film strength modifiers. I'd guess a 20w50 synthetic may not stay with the engine for your desired change interval.
Remember that the Ural is a knockoff of the BMW and they likely copied the recomendations from that manual with little R&D.
Change interval is determined by oil quality, engine condition (blowby, etc) and driving style. IF you're just making short trips on a daily basis, you would be better to stay with the current change time. Long touring runs where the engine stays hot and burns off the fuel and water in the oil can easily go double the mileage with a good brand of oil.
The only real way to determine what you need to do is by oil analysis that compares your used oil to a sample of new oil. This will tell you the condition of the lube under your driving conditions. Its about $35 USD here.
Keep the wheels on the ground
Bob
showshine@aol.com
RE: Extending Service Intervals
Sprintcar is right that the only way is to have a sample taken an analyzed. Amsoil will provide a detailed spectrographic analysis for about $15 or $16.
My experience is that I have been using them since 1978 and as an engineer have taken a keen interest into them, first for my own equipment (I turbocharged a BMW car in 1978 before all those turbos were around and wanted a better oil). I can safely say based on analysis results that the service life will be 4+ times whatever the mfr's recommendations are. I was impressed an became a dealer.
RE: Extending Service Intervals
Even when I rode everyday on my last Goldwing I changed oil and filter every two to three thousand miles. Keep in mind that rear tires only last ~10,000 miles!
Rod
RE: Extending Service Intervals
RE: Extending Service Intervals
Back to the "time"---bike question---It only takes me about 10 minutes to service the Norton (it is a dry sump) but even my Goldwing could be completely serviced in about a half hour! I spend more time lubing my chain and wipeilng down the "oil" (it IS British, afterall!)
You just need more "face to face" with these old bikes and cars. My wifes Lincoln gets serviced by the dealer every few months and other than that, all it ever gets is the occasional wash and, of course, fuel!!!
I live by the old cliche---"Nothing ventured, nothing gained"
Best of luck and "Believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear!"
Rod
RE: Extending Service Intervals
RE: Extending Service Intervals
The other nuisance, is when you are travelling a distance. For a 1000 mile oil change interval (back when I had my '70 Honda CB750) I would have to change the oil halfway into the interval before going on vacation, or change it on the road.
I went to synthetic, and ran it about 6000 miles between changes. I switched at about 60,000 miles (not km) and ran it that way to ? 90,000 plus miles.
Sure was nice to have that extended interval.
cheers
jay
Jay Maechtlen
RE: Extending Service Intervals
As I understand it there are 2 main reasons for having to change the engine oil.
1. Oil gets thinner and less effective as it gets old. Modern synthetics aren't as anywhere near as prone to this as the older spec mineral oils were......
2. Oil gets contaminated by products of combustion, including abrasive particulates. An engine without a filter needs very regular oil changes or these are continuously going round the bearings. You have now changed to a filtered system.....
Your old transmission hasn't changed but again, modern oils have improved way beyond the capabilities of only a few years ago. Does the old transmission oil appear to be contaminated (change colour or contain metal particles)? If not, there would seem to be little reason to keep changing it. Many modern cars don't even have a drain plug in the diff.....
Get my drift? I would personally try modern higher spec. oils, monitor the situation and spend more time with the kids.
RE: Extending Service Intervals
RE: Extending Service Intervals
You must have seen a very limited circumstance. But if you surveyed say 10 or more installations of the use of Amsoil, the data shows otherwise, along with 3rd party oil analysis results.
RE: Extending Service Intervals
Amsoil make a fine product, my only gripe is their dodgy marketing practices. Looks like a Pyramid structure to me.
Regards
pat
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Extending Service Intervals
You are mixing marketing methodology with this thechnical forum.
Do you know what a pirmad scheme is? If you were in busines, you could obtain a business account just like with any other company. A small company with limited cash for advertising uses different methods to get the product out.
Anyway, glad to hear you are not stoning the quality of the product. Simply using the product "with no problems" isn't good enough for comparison purposes. I use them based on their technical qualities and have since 1978. Just one of the qualities is volatility and is lower than any of the other brands you mention. Low volatility keeps lube on hot surfaces. Upper cylinder areas will not see the taper wear and ring grooves will remain free of the normal heavy varnish. I have automotive engines with honing marks in the cylinder walls at over 80k miles to demonstrate the point.
Also, most American made oils cannot meet the European volatility requirements for high speed use.
Besides, no other brand will warrantee their product to go the distance.
RE: Extending Service Intervals
I just call it as I see it.
If you are going to dispute what I say, at least get your quote right. I never said I simply used it with no problems. I have infact used amsoil, Mobil 1 and the lightweight Nissan oil to overcome specific problems or to give a specific advantage at the time. They all solved the specific problem that I chose them for. I don't really feel I need to explain my test methods nor specific requirements to justify a comment that they all worked fine.
As you say, this is an engineering forum, not a commercial free for all, that is why I recomend more than one brand wherever possible. From my observations on this forum, the most frequent problems involving plugging one product have been traced to Amsoil salesmen, resulting in a number of red flags for commercial abuse of the forum.
Yes I do know what a pyramid is, and I have previously bought Amsoil from various levels of the pyramid. I was also offered a deal to be part of it.
As I from time to time, have applications that require a number of the properties of Amsoil, I do like to buy it from time to time. I would much prefer to buy it from an official regional distributor, or from a convenctional retail outlet.
These are my personal views, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the management of this forum.
Regards
pat
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.