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High mileage oil change intervals
- Thread starter dicer
- Start date
The NAD solicited many expert opinions, including no less than Nobel winning Organic Chemist Roald Hoffmann who came down on Castrol's side. Their assertion that 'synthetic' meant "the product of an intended chemical reaction" would seem to exclude "Solvent-Neutral" (API Group I) petroleum oils becuase they are products of distillation and extraction refinements of crude oils. Considering the degree of new chemical bonds produced in processing API Group III oils- particularly C-C isomerizations- severe hydrotreatment was judged to qualify as a synthetic process. There were also commercial precedents cited as significant bases for the NAD decision.
Note that the Castrol-Mobil dispute did not encompass API-Group II base stocks, which are the basis for the majority of current specification "conventional" engine oils. These are 'intentionally reacted' to produce C-H bonds from unsaturated sites and so would seem to fit the Hoffmann definition of synthetic also. Nevertheless, it is not common practice to market such "conventional" oils as synthetics, and attempts to do so would likely wind up back at the NAD for adjudication.
ewh- close but not quite. As noted there appears to be a technical basis for API Group I oils NOT being 'synthetic'. But what IS "synthetic" has historically changed, and seems to be currently determined- rather than defined- by industry (i.e. market) consensus.
As was noted in the NAD decision the term "mineral" may also be ambiguous because even the uncontested "synthetic" polyalphaolefins (PAOs, API Group IV oils) trace their origins to ethylene which is produced from petroleum crackers.
Note that the Castrol-Mobil dispute did not encompass API-Group II base stocks, which are the basis for the majority of current specification "conventional" engine oils. These are 'intentionally reacted' to produce C-H bonds from unsaturated sites and so would seem to fit the Hoffmann definition of synthetic also. Nevertheless, it is not common practice to market such "conventional" oils as synthetics, and attempts to do so would likely wind up back at the NAD for adjudication.
ewh- close but not quite. As noted there appears to be a technical basis for API Group I oils NOT being 'synthetic'. But what IS "synthetic" has historically changed, and seems to be currently determined- rather than defined- by industry (i.e. market) consensus.
As was noted in the NAD decision the term "mineral" may also be ambiguous because even the uncontested "synthetic" polyalphaolefins (PAOs, API Group IV oils) trace their origins to ethylene which is produced from petroleum crackers.
Dicer, I don't think anybody here disagrees that in the world some small amount of petroleum oil does come from abiogenic sources. The primary source of it is biogenic. If you would like to see a good museum exhibit explaining the physical processes which result in formation and trapping of oil and natural gas, I recommend this one:
"Abiogenic petroleum origin is an alternative hypothesis to the prevailing theory of biological petroleum origin. Most popular in the Soviet Union between the 1950s and 1980s, the abiogenic hypothesis has little support among contemporary petroleum geologists, who argue that abiogenic petroleum does not exist in significant amounts and that there is no indication that an application of the hypothesis is or has ever been of commercial value."
"Abiogenic petroleum origin is an alternative hypothesis to the prevailing theory of biological petroleum origin. Most popular in the Soviet Union between the 1950s and 1980s, the abiogenic hypothesis has little support among contemporary petroleum geologists, who argue that abiogenic petroleum does not exist in significant amounts and that there is no indication that an application of the hypothesis is or has ever been of commercial value."
- Thread starter
- #24
Please,just do the experiment and then get back to me.
Remember many petroleum wells are in the 20,000 foot plus range. Also remember animal and vegitation decay and are consumed by micro oganizims. Please explain how dead animal material can soak 5 plus miles into the earth, if that is the case we should have almost no water at the surface of the earth, since it will pass more easily through the earth rock and granite filter than a dead horses oily residue will.
And how come the molecular make up of petroleum has zero relationship to animal molecular make up?
The primary source is not biogenic. That may happen in the lab but not in nature.
Remember many petroleum wells are in the 20,000 foot plus range. Also remember animal and vegitation decay and are consumed by micro oganizims. Please explain how dead animal material can soak 5 plus miles into the earth, if that is the case we should have almost no water at the surface of the earth, since it will pass more easily through the earth rock and granite filter than a dead horses oily residue will.
And how come the molecular make up of petroleum has zero relationship to animal molecular make up?
The primary source is not biogenic. That may happen in the lab but not in nature.
NavyEngineerRetired
Military
- Sep 30, 2007
- 3
Know the Facts: Extended Drain Intervals mean Fewer Oil Changes, Long Term Savings and Convenience.
In Maintenance, LESS means MORE
LESS Effort means MORE Productivity
LESS Complicated means MORE Confidence
LESS Waste means MORE Profit / REDUCED Expenses
MAXIMUM Oil Change Intervals ~ 100,000-Miles and Beyond
3-Steps to Virtually Eliminate YOUR Vehicle Oil Changes Forever
The Best Kept U.S. Military Vehicle Maintenance SECRET for 20 + Years
Direct from the U.S. NAVY Joint Services P2 Maintenance On-Line Public Files
Backed Up By: Society of Automotive Engineers 1995 Technical Paper #952553
The Bottom Line: It's Time for 100,000-Miles and BEYOND Extended Oil Drain Intervals
You get better wear protection, lower engine temperatures, improved fuel efficiency and easier cold-weather starts.
All of these benefits add up to reduced operating costs and longer engine life. And even more, you generate less waste oil, which helps preserve our environment and reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
REDUCE - Equipment Down or Out of Service Time
REDUCE - Lubricant Inventory Requirements
ELIMINATE - Premature Equipment Failures
REDUCE - Energy and Fuel Consumption
REDUCE - Hazardous Waste Lubricants
STREAMLINE - Maintenance Protocols
REDUCE - Waste Disposal Expenses
MAXIMIZE - Equipment Service Life
REDUCE - Man Hour Requirements
EXTEND - Lubricant Drain Intervals
REDUCE - Capital Expenditures
INCREASE - Production Production
NAVY ENGINEERS ~ Do MORE Maintenance With LESS
In Maintenance, LESS means MORE
LESS Effort means MORE Productivity
LESS Complicated means MORE Confidence
LESS Waste means MORE Profit / REDUCED Expenses
MAXIMUM Oil Change Intervals ~ 100,000-Miles and Beyond
3-Steps to Virtually Eliminate YOUR Vehicle Oil Changes Forever
The Best Kept U.S. Military Vehicle Maintenance SECRET for 20 + Years
Direct from the U.S. NAVY Joint Services P2 Maintenance On-Line Public Files
Backed Up By: Society of Automotive Engineers 1995 Technical Paper #952553
The Bottom Line: It's Time for 100,000-Miles and BEYOND Extended Oil Drain Intervals
You get better wear protection, lower engine temperatures, improved fuel efficiency and easier cold-weather starts.
All of these benefits add up to reduced operating costs and longer engine life. And even more, you generate less waste oil, which helps preserve our environment and reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
REDUCE - Equipment Down or Out of Service Time
REDUCE - Lubricant Inventory Requirements
ELIMINATE - Premature Equipment Failures
REDUCE - Energy and Fuel Consumption
REDUCE - Hazardous Waste Lubricants
STREAMLINE - Maintenance Protocols
REDUCE - Waste Disposal Expenses
MAXIMIZE - Equipment Service Life
REDUCE - Man Hour Requirements
EXTEND - Lubricant Drain Intervals
REDUCE - Capital Expenditures
INCREASE - Production Production
NAVY ENGINEERS ~ Do MORE Maintenance With LESS
NavyEngineerRetired
Military
- Sep 30, 2007
- 3
Mobil 1 Synthetic Motor Oil goes 28,000 miles in "extreme" conditions -- before changing...
Oil Change News:
According to Automotive Service Operator in January 1999 the Convenient Automotive Services Institute (CASI) found 60 percent of the 210 articles on extended oil drain intervals published in the past year have recommended extended oil drain intervals; US automakers are finally beginning to recommend longer extended oil drain intervals... or are they... because...
When you consider in 1997 Mr. Mike McMillan of General Motors Stated: And I Quote, "Extending Drain Intervals is an important issue for us. We definitely want to be the leader in Extended Drain Intervals."
Yet, In the very same year of 1997... European automakers started recommending 18,000 + miles between oil change intervals and that was after a decade of 9,000-miles between oil change intervals... European Oil Change Intervals Going To 27,900-Miles and Beyond
Marc Graham, president of Pennzoil-Quaker State-owned Jiffy Lube International, was quoted in a 2001 Lubricants World interview as saying, "At [PQS] we use a number internally that if we [shortened the drain interval] by 100 miles [for each car serviced], it would mean an additional $20 million in revenue for the company." He also explained that "if we could move our customers to get one more oil change per year, it's worth $294 million for the oil change alone and $441 million in revenue, when you include the ancillary products and services customers typically buy along with the oil change." Which explains why Quaker State stoped their advertising of protection beyond 3,000-miles after being purchased by Pennzoil.
Fast Forward to Lubes'n'Greases September 21, 2005 Industry News Volume 5 Issue 38 GM: 30,000-mile Drain Intervals are Achievable
Typical drain intervals with General Motors' Oil Life System, the onboard computer algorithm that tells drivers when it's time to change their motor oil, are 8,500 miles, versus 5,000 for GM's competitors, a GM executive told last week's World Tribology Congress. Drain intervals over 30,000 miles are achievable with minor engine modifications and appropriate oil quality.
"We cannot say exactly when it will happen, but drain intervals will be lengthened," James A. Spearot, director of GM's Chemical & Environmental Sciences Laboratory in Warren, Mich., told the World Tribology Congress meeting in Washington, D.C. Sept. 15. And it will happen, along with numerous other technological advances, thanks to the contributions of tribology - the science of rubbing surfaces.
Major drain interval improvements are achievable with appropriate oil quality and hardware technology, to over 30,000 miles with minor engine modifications and over 40,000 miles with major engine modifications, he added. "But we still need to strive for the best fuel economy, no compromise on engine durability, and no negative impact on emissions systems."
NAVY ENGINEERS ~ Do MORE Maintenance With LESS
Oil Change News:
According to Automotive Service Operator in January 1999 the Convenient Automotive Services Institute (CASI) found 60 percent of the 210 articles on extended oil drain intervals published in the past year have recommended extended oil drain intervals; US automakers are finally beginning to recommend longer extended oil drain intervals... or are they... because...
When you consider in 1997 Mr. Mike McMillan of General Motors Stated: And I Quote, "Extending Drain Intervals is an important issue for us. We definitely want to be the leader in Extended Drain Intervals."
Yet, In the very same year of 1997... European automakers started recommending 18,000 + miles between oil change intervals and that was after a decade of 9,000-miles between oil change intervals... European Oil Change Intervals Going To 27,900-Miles and Beyond
Marc Graham, president of Pennzoil-Quaker State-owned Jiffy Lube International, was quoted in a 2001 Lubricants World interview as saying, "At [PQS] we use a number internally that if we [shortened the drain interval] by 100 miles [for each car serviced], it would mean an additional $20 million in revenue for the company." He also explained that "if we could move our customers to get one more oil change per year, it's worth $294 million for the oil change alone and $441 million in revenue, when you include the ancillary products and services customers typically buy along with the oil change." Which explains why Quaker State stoped their advertising of protection beyond 3,000-miles after being purchased by Pennzoil.
Fast Forward to Lubes'n'Greases September 21, 2005 Industry News Volume 5 Issue 38 GM: 30,000-mile Drain Intervals are Achievable
Typical drain intervals with General Motors' Oil Life System, the onboard computer algorithm that tells drivers when it's time to change their motor oil, are 8,500 miles, versus 5,000 for GM's competitors, a GM executive told last week's World Tribology Congress. Drain intervals over 30,000 miles are achievable with minor engine modifications and appropriate oil quality.
"We cannot say exactly when it will happen, but drain intervals will be lengthened," James A. Spearot, director of GM's Chemical & Environmental Sciences Laboratory in Warren, Mich., told the World Tribology Congress meeting in Washington, D.C. Sept. 15. And it will happen, along with numerous other technological advances, thanks to the contributions of tribology - the science of rubbing surfaces.
Major drain interval improvements are achievable with appropriate oil quality and hardware technology, to over 30,000 miles with minor engine modifications and over 40,000 miles with major engine modifications, he added. "But we still need to strive for the best fuel economy, no compromise on engine durability, and no negative impact on emissions systems."
NAVY ENGINEERS ~ Do MORE Maintenance With LESS
NavyEngineerRetired
Military
- Sep 30, 2007
- 3
U.S. Military Engineering Note:
The Service Life Cycle of a lubricant is dependent upon the "QUALITY" of the oil and the filtration system's ability to keep it clean.
NAVY ENGINEERS ~ Do MORE Maintenance With LESS
"Please explain how dead animal material can soak 5 plus miles into the earth"
uh, nobody around here (except you) said it "soaks in." The abiogenic theory holds that it formed way down deep and "soaked out," until it got trapped by a layer of (biogenic) limestone. For some reason that sounds a more appealing explanation to you, I take it?
...a dead horses oily residue
we're talking plankton and diatoms, not horses.
"how come the molecular make up of petroleum has zero relationship to animal molecular make up"
I'm not sure where you get that idea.
- A carbohydrate is an organic compound with the general formula Cm(H2O)n, that is, consists only of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, the last two in the 2:1 atom ratio. Carbohydrates can be viewed as hydrates of carbon, hence their name...Carbohydrates perform numerous roles in living things.
- In organic chemistry, a hydrocarbon is an organic compound consisting entirely of hydrogen and carbon.[1] Hydrocarbons from which one hydrogen atom has been removed are functional groups, called hydrocarbyls.[2] Aromatic hydrocarbons (arenes), alkanes, alkenes, cycloalkanes and alkyne-based compounds are different types of hydrocarbons. The majority of hydrocarbons found naturally occur in crude oil, where decomposed organic matter provides an abundance of carbon and hydrogen which, when bonded, can catenate to form seemingly limitless chains.
uh, nobody around here (except you) said it "soaks in." The abiogenic theory holds that it formed way down deep and "soaked out," until it got trapped by a layer of (biogenic) limestone. For some reason that sounds a more appealing explanation to you, I take it?
...a dead horses oily residue
we're talking plankton and diatoms, not horses.
"how come the molecular make up of petroleum has zero relationship to animal molecular make up"
I'm not sure where you get that idea.
- A carbohydrate is an organic compound with the general formula Cm(H2O)n, that is, consists only of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, the last two in the 2:1 atom ratio. Carbohydrates can be viewed as hydrates of carbon, hence their name...Carbohydrates perform numerous roles in living things.
- In organic chemistry, a hydrocarbon is an organic compound consisting entirely of hydrogen and carbon.[1] Hydrocarbons from which one hydrogen atom has been removed are functional groups, called hydrocarbyls.[2] Aromatic hydrocarbons (arenes), alkanes, alkenes, cycloalkanes and alkyne-based compounds are different types of hydrocarbons. The majority of hydrocarbons found naturally occur in crude oil, where decomposed organic matter provides an abundance of carbon and hydrogen which, when bonded, can catenate to form seemingly limitless chains.
Since we seem to have segued into things getting buried...
While my sister was in Israel she sent some photos of a "dig" near where she lived in Yafo. This tell was a cobblestone street with evidence of houses. Not all that uncommon over there, I guess. What gives me pause is the fact that it was something like thirty feet below street level and was dated less than 2000 years ago. So, tell me how a complete city gets buried in such a short time? What is more important in this case is that at the "30" level it was nowhere near the beginning of civilized occupation in that particular tell.
Rod.....Not meant to understand everything, I guess.
While my sister was in Israel she sent some photos of a "dig" near where she lived in Yafo. This tell was a cobblestone street with evidence of houses. Not all that uncommon over there, I guess. What gives me pause is the fact that it was something like thirty feet below street level and was dated less than 2000 years ago. So, tell me how a complete city gets buried in such a short time? What is more important in this case is that at the "30" level it was nowhere near the beginning of civilized occupation in that particular tell.
Rod.....Not meant to understand everything, I guess.
evelrod-
I'm confused... (like normal). Does that mean I should change my oil every 2000 miles or 2000 years? Can we define "HIGH mileage" while we're defining synthetic, mineral, dino, vegetable, oil, etc.
My friend is selling a slick engine oil derived from maple syrup, cottage cheese and sake. Any leftover is great for salad dressing. <LOL>
I'm confused... (like normal). Does that mean I should change my oil every 2000 miles or 2000 years? Can we define "HIGH mileage" while we're defining synthetic, mineral, dino, vegetable, oil, etc.
My friend is selling a slick engine oil derived from maple syrup, cottage cheese and sake. Any leftover is great for salad dressing. <LOL>
- Thread starter
- #32
True science is learning to think out of the box.
Especially if there is a political agenda keeping it shut.
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