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# engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

## engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

(OP)

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

I think you have to read their page very carefully. I met the Rep. at a show many years ago, and at least then, they did not recommend its use with any type of antifreeze, what I was told was it really didnt help the wetting characteristics enough to warrant its use. Indeed, based upon a reduction of only 8 degrees in a stabilized temp engine, very few of us could justify its cost. Where it would shine though is in a circle track race engine, where stabilized temperatures dropped 18 degrees. Another possibility, though more for the drag guys would it not also reduce the cool down period between rounds?
Just thoughts, what I will agree on is it has no real advantage for a street driven ( with antifreeze )car.

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

On thinking about this, I cannot see how it changes the water temperature, maybe the metal temperature in the combustion chamber, though I doubt it, but not the water.

If it improves heat transfer from coolant to metal, surely it will improve the heat transfer into the radiator core just as effictivly as it transfers the heat out of the combustion chamber, resulting in a similar water temp for a cooler head, and hotter air under the bonnet.

I would have seen this as a bouble whammy dissadvantge to both power and fuel efficiency, as more heat is lost from work to atmosphere, and higher underbonnet temps might reduce air density in the inlet tract and reduce power.

Regards
pat

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

Again from the practical side---I have used Red Line Water Wetter and water soluable oil as a corrosion inhibitor in the cooling systems of my Model A and my race cars for years.  I choose to use the Red Line stuff in the race cars simply because it is less messy than the oil.  I cannot use EG or PG based coolants because of the rules in most racing organizations (SCCA, VARA and HSR/West for me).  The use of EG coolants in the non pressure Model A results in overheating and using the PG based coolants yields higher coolant temp than I am comfortable with (~300f).

Rod

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

Rod

If it stops corrosion, lubricates the water pump, you don't need antifreeze and can't run glycol, it sounds like just thr right horse for your course.

I still doubt the advantages of wetter water.

We just run plain old tap water in the 1913 model Little Giant, as it has a large water capicity and boils gently on long steep hills. We top it up well before it boils dry. The latent heat of vaporisation crudely makes up for a lack of radiator and airflow capicity. Yes, she has no cooling fan and no water pump.

Regards
pat

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

Good Morning to all-
My shop prepares F-bodies (Firebird and Camaro) for various levels of motorsports (Speed World Challenge GT, SCCA A-Sedan, SCCA SSB (yes a v-6!).  Both the L-98 base of the A Sedan and the World GT LT-1 reverse flow cooling system can see some extremes in cooling system temperatures especially in the mid-atlantic area from July thru September.  We've tried every conventional solution and have it manageable for now, but as the prep shop I'd like more cushion.  Evans Cooling has some interesting technical data @ Evanscooling.com.  It looks like part of the solution but I'm interested if any one has looked into it, used it, etc.  Sorry about the late post.
Cheers,
Craig
CRG Performance

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

Here's a thought - since breaking surface tension in hot water is the key, how about the rinse additive in your dishwasher? Works for us in the race engines.

Keep the wheels on the ground
Bob
showshine@aol.com

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

Okay Bob---You got my attention.  After totalling the mini at Willow Springs last month, I am interested in anything that will save me money.  The Red Line stuff works but is outragiously expensive for what it does. The race organizers will not allow anything else except water soluable oil (messy) or plain water. Do you have anything to say about corrosion/rust inhibitors in the dishwasher stuff?
My figures for the Water Wetter last race test we did were 200f water temp and 195f oil temp on plain water and 190+ water and 180+ oil in one test and the next day 195 plain water/190 wetter---oil temp was about 160 to 170 both tests on Saturday (crashed in turn 1 second lap on Sunday, so no figures). Weather was clear and windy, air temp about 85/95 both days.  Not terribly scientific but it indicates to me that there is a good possibility that some improvement in overall engine temp is accomplished by using the Red Line stuff.  Like I said before, I use it for corrosion control and any benifits above and beyond that are "just gravy".

Rod

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

The two areas of potential problem I can see with useing cleaning chemicals, including dishwasher rinse aid is foaming and alkalinity.

If it is inclined to foam, it will increase tendency to cavitate at the pump inlet or wherever you get high water velocity around a tight bend or sharp edge.

This cavitation might cause hot spots in the combustion chamber.

If it is slightly alkaline, and most surfactant formulations are, it will attack any aluminium parts it comes into contact with.

You certainly can use something like you propose, and that is probably all that the redline is, but you will need to check pH, and keep it just very slightly on the acid side of neutral, say pH 6.8

You can also add some silicone antifoam if necessary, and possibly a little corrosion inhibitor. When I worked in the lab at Geigy, back in196? something or other,we had a product we sold to the automotive coolant system additives industry. I think it was called Amine O. It was a corrosion inhibitor, and might now be sold by CIBA, or whatever they call themselves this year.

Another source of corrosion inhibitor might be suppliers of watertreatment chemicals to industry, for such things as cooling towers etc

Regards
pat

Thanks, Pat.

Rod

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

I run a small engined road / trials / hillclimbing car (called a Liege) in UK using a modified Reliant Rialto 850 cc engine. The engine has an alloy block with cast iron wet liners and and an alloy head. It runs a high compression ratio (probably about 12.5 to 1).

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

Going off on a little bit of a tangent here but...

Will switching to a lower temperature thermostat actually reduce the operating temp of the engine? It was already stated earlier in this thread that hotter is better, but i see lots of people installing 180 degree t-stats in there vehicles that were designed to run 190 degree t-stats. They think that running it cooler will add more power. But i always thought that the t-stat just controlled the minimum temperature of the engine, once your really running the car hard the t-stat stays open and the temperature of your engine is determined by the efficiency of your radiator, water pump, and coolant. Am i right?

-Jon

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

Yes, Jon. All that plus, obviously, ambient temp and  the engine loading/power output, etc.  If the cooling cap of the system is greater than demand then a 'cooler' t stat will lower temp.  Most modern systems are sized for max output in Arizona...

Rod

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

"sized for max output in Arizona... "

-If one ever notices, that's where most of the auto rags' new model spy photos are taken.

### RE: engine coolant additives, redline water wetter etc.

My science project:

Just to be provoctative, I've constructed a little experiment. Try it for yourself.

Tools:

Electric stovetop, heated to max temperature
Aluminum pie pan
Water
Ethlyene Glycol AF
Water Wetter
Dishwashing soap

Procedure:
The first step is to put a pound of room temperature water in the pie pan and place it on the stove. Time how long it takes to boil.

Boiling condition is identified when the solution reaches a plateau temperature. Temps were observed at 15 second intervals, because I was doing this by hand. Temps in degrees F, because that was the thermometer I had handy. I did each test twice, to check my times.

Repeat with a mixture of water/water wetter, water/glycol (50%)/water wetter, water/glycol (50%), water/diswashing soap.

Rationale:

The stovetop represents a hot engine component, the coolant is the coolant, and the air/coolant interface is the radiator. The mass of the pie tin is small enough to be disregarded. The longer the coolant can go without boiling, the more heat it can transfer. Lots of differences between this model and a real cooling system (thanks in advance for pointing them out), but it's just a quick and dirty.

Results:

From best to worst, time is in seconds:
(time, plateau temperature, solution)

180  212   Water/Water Wetter
180  225   Water/Glycol/Water Wetter
165  225   Water/Glycol
150  212   Water/soap
120  212   Water

Test conditions: 70F ambient, elevation 100M,stovetop temp 800F.

Observations:
Water wetter seems to do what they advertise. Put a few drops in a boiling pan of water, and the vapor bubbles disappear, replaced by no bubbles or streams of tiny bubbles. Clearly, more liquid is in contact with the pan.

Diswashing soap was less effective, and foamed a bit. I think that liquid soap is partly water, which may explain it's lack of effectiveness.

Conclusions:

It works in the pan, but can't assume it works in the car. I doubt that observed temperature would change, unless your car was very close to overheating in normal service. But hot spots would probably be reduced or eliminated. We can debate the value, but I can't seen any harm.

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