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Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification
6

Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

(OP)
Hi!

We have a situation of a dispute with a delivery company about pipes we ordered from them.

In the project technical specification, it was clearly specified and underlined that only longitudinally welded pipes are acceptable for use in this project.
After we received their offer, we checked it for mistakes/issues but not thoroughly enough only to find out later that spirally welded pipes were delivered to the construction site.
Of course, at this point they are blaming us as the ones who are responsible for this situation!!?

Any advice for this situation, any experience with this kind of issues.



RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Sounds like a procurement issue at this point. If the specification and purchase order both refer to the requirements and they shipped you something different and refuse to fix it, that's how lawsuits happen.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Pretty big miss there....

Doesn't really matter what you asked for. If they gave you an offer based on a different type of pipe and you accepted their offer then that often takes precedent.

You need to dig out the PO and see if it still referenced your spec and data sheet or just their offer.

In any event spiral weld is the same in terms of design as straight welded so you can use it just the same so long as the thickness and material grade are correct.

Did you have no inspectors at the mill??? Or a KOM??

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

2
The experience is that once stuff arrives on site, there will be immense pressure from everyone around you to accept the deviation / issue and move on, especially as there is no design drawback to this. The hit to the schedule alone will often mean you will need to accept this material and look more closely at the offer next time...

To reject this pipe and then be able to justify it you really need to find a design reason apart from what it says on the spec.

Hint: There isn't one.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

There may be a good chance you can get a discount out of this.

Good Luck,
Latexman

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

This comes down to what is on the quote and the acknowledgement.
Your spec doesn't matter if you give them a way around it.
Make procurement and legal do their jobs.
Tell then that you are rejecting it for technical reasons, then let them decide if you have a leg to stand on.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

There might be a design drawback if the line is sour service, offshore, or both

Steve Jones
Corrosion Management Consultant

www.linkedin.com/in/drstevejones

All answers are personal opinions only and are in no way connected with any employer.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Q1: what did their bid say?
Q2: why was linear weld specified in your requirements?

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Don’t you just love pipeline projects

Steve Jones
Corrosion Management Consultant

www.linkedin.com/in/drstevejones

All answers are personal opinions only and are in no way connected with any employer.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Steve,

Between a straight weld seam pipe and a spiral welded one?

Seamless and welded I fully accept there is a difference, but welded is welded surely? Length of the weld is surely irrelevant?

3D - I get that spirally welded pipe just looks a bit odd, so I guess they thought there was a chance someone could offer spirally welded, which is often a bit cheaper, so wanted to be clear that it wasn't what they wanted. But now they've royally screwed up by not reading the quotation properly. IMHO.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

I've always considered the two to be equivalent, but am not in the piping industry. My only exposure to this was a device for preventing ice freezing in the wintertime at a small port. Is there a difference in the actual use of straight and spiral seams from a corrosion issue or strength issue? Thanks, Dik

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Dik.

Not as far as I'm aware. I think a lot is just prejudice from some dodgy pipe 50 years ago. Because you're moving the pipe axially as well as rotating it you can get the arc weld seam a bit off centre. Plus there is more weld.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Can the amount of weld be automatically be applied and aligned? and would this be an issue?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

@LI

It’s all in the expansion. UOE/JCO SAWL is expanded, generally altering the stress state of the weld in a positive manner with respect to sour service. It is also has more controlled dimensions that render it more attractive for high productivity offshore welding.

https://www.google.com/search?q=use+of+spiral+weld...

Steve Jones
Corrosion Management Consultant

www.linkedin.com/in/drstevejones

All answers are personal opinions only and are in no way connected with any employer.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

" After we received their offer, we checked it for mistakes/issues but not thoroughly enough only to find out later that spirally welded pipes were delivered to the construction site."

Sorry, but what is in your project specifications means absolutely nothing if your procurement department has not communicated requirements properly.
If they have and the offer was something else entirely then it falls on you - the QC department.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Steve. Thanks for that.

I suspect though it's for none of those things....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Steve, You've got a better memory than I have nowadays - Oh dear.

Some threads I remember, some I don't....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Quote (Thus, there is a high level of residual stress locked into the helical seam increasing the likelihood of H2S cracking.)


Thanks, Steve...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Quote (nikolastrojman)

Any advice for this situation, any experience with this kind of issues.
Find a person ultimately responsible for the result and give him/her an insight of consequences to payback, safety, risks, reliablility, cost, schedule, possible responses of other services/departments, vendor benefits.

As far as I remember Kletz's What Went Wrong 5th ed. - an industry survey showed that 5% of all piping components do not comply with design specs.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

There was an incident of piping supplied for an airport in Winnipeg a few years ago was substandard. It was failing at 1/10 of the design pressure. It was supplied from China and the test data was exact for all piping, only the test report number varied...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

So nikolass, you've had 20 replies and 4 LPS and no response?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Did Purchasing request pipe quotes from a mill that only produces spiral welded pipe and accept the lower cost product. If so, the pipe is yours.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Been on this forum for well over 10 years and still do not know how to "Quote" someone.

Dik,
"There was an incident of piping supplied for an airport in Winnipeg a few years ago was substandard. It was failing at 1/10 of the design pressure. It was supplied from China and the test data was exact for all piping, only the test report number varied..."

Received 2 x plates from a mill in China - totally different heat numbers, totally different Lot numbers, totally different thicknesses.
MTC's reviewed on their own showed compliance with the required standard (that is what the contractor did).
Me, being an old fart who has been around the block a few times reviewed them side by side.
Every single mechanical result exactly the same, every single element of chemical composition exactly the same down to 0.001,
I hate to "tar all Chinese mills with the same brush" as there are some very good mills in China - unfortunately my contractors never pick them. $$$

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

@DD



use the indicated icon for quotes

Steve Jones
Corrosion Management Consultant

www.linkedin.com/in/drstevejones

All answers are personal opinions only and are in no way connected with any employer.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Yes the quotes thing is a bit odd. first copy in the bit you want to quote, then hit the quote button, type in the of the person name, click OK and then where the cursor ends up - between the two ][ paste in the quote.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

You pay for metal. You pay for reports. If you want reports to have information about the metal you paid for, that is extra.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Regarding bad certificates

We received valves with pressure test certs for the seats but the valves did not have the seat rings installed.

For best results we send an inspector from our country to the factory to witness the process and testing

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Quote (I hate to "tar all Chinese mills with the same brush" as there are some very good mills in China)


My only incident with Chinese manufacturing... I don't have a problem with China; generally their stuff is good. It was just funny that the data was all the same. The same material had passed through maybe a dozen other engineers, and not notice.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Steve / LI
Thank you for the assistance - will give it a try.
Cheers,
Shane

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Quote (Little Inch)

first copy in the bit you want to quote, then hit the quote button, type in the of the person name, click OK and then where the cursor ends up - between the two ][ paste in the quote.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Ha Ha Ha ! Old fart is firing now !!!!!!!!

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

DekDee,

Yes it took me about ten years as well to figure it out....

The OP meanwhile hasn't been seen since Friday... maybe he got fired for buying the wrong pipe?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Quote (SJones)

use the indicated icon for quotes

Thank you Steve and Li

Regards

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

We had two sources in China that we used a lot. IT took visiting 13 mill to find those two.
We still visited to witness regularly.
But then we had a rule that if we bought from someone twice we had to witness at least once.
It didn't where they were located.

One reason that many of the Chinese mills had/have issues with test reports is that there is no internal communications.
The chem lab and mech test labs had might as well be outside companies, and no one has any stake in the outcome.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

(OP)
Hi guys!

Thank you very much for all the replies, it has been a mess for me this last couple of months :(

Anyhow, we are in court now with this issue so I´ll tell you the outcome when there is one.
Of course, the contractor didn´t want to hear anything about mutually trying to come up with a solution in the interest for both of us, even though the client hires us and them every time they have a project (ha ha).

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Better late than never.... Thanks for the update.

What happened to the pipe? Installed or sitting ruating in a pipe dump somewhere??

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

OP,
It is up to the Owner to whether accept the spiral welded pipes. No doubt the Owner's receiving inspection did a mess up. Usually, these type of piping will have a 12 months after installation or 18 months from shipment warranty.
If the product is from China, you might land up in an endless battle.
Few of my colleagues have highlighted the pitfall working with Chinese material. The perfect documentation may fool you many times unless you buy the product from the TOP TIER companies.
My personal experience with Chinese Supplier was pretty bad. I realized that many Chinese Trading Cos who supplies material have their own MTR templates even if they don't manufacture. They can fit the result as customer wants.

Notwithstanding the above, ASME B31.3 treats Joint Efficiency as same for both longitudinal seam weld and spiral weld pipes.

GDD
Canada

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Hi,
My experience with China, 10 years as Op manager and Projects Manager for a French Company, You get what you pay!
Don't complain if the cost is your driver. Easy to hire third party for inspection, same to get mill certificate.
Pierre

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Just a quick comment on third party inspectorates (TPIs).
Having worked as an inspector for some of the largest third party agencies and having hired multiple TPIs since moving into quality management I think I can speak with confidence.
Never rely on third party inspection as a guarantee of quality.
Many inspectors (this is especially so in the Asian region) are freelancers and work for the agencies on an as-needed basis.
Many of them have either worked previously for the company they are inspecting or are hoping to obtain future work with the company they are inspecting.
Please do not get me wrong - there are some excellent TPI's out there. It is just doing a bit of due diligence first.
My current project has utilised 3 x TPI agencies in China (probably the 3 most recognised inspection agencies) and 2 have been removed so far for unsatisfactory inspections.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

Very true, and not only Asia. I’ve lost count of the number of times that I have pointed out nonconformances on the order after reading the TPI’s inspection report that had not done the same..

Steve Jones
Corrosion Management Consultant

www.linkedin.com/in/drstevejones

All answers are personal opinions only and are in no way connected with any employer.

RE: Ordered pipes not in compliance with technical specification

What DekDee and SJones are saying is absolutely true.
We ordered 48 in spiral welded SS pipes from China, Supplier engaged TPI for 3.2 certification and guess what. The TPI certified the pipes. But when we looked at the pictures we noticed that pipes were not spiral welded as one piece, instead it was made out of three pieces with two circumferential welds and the middle piece with a longitudinal seam.
When we didn't accept, we lost USD 40,000.00 paid as 30% advance. Company was Hunan Steel China.
Essentially, we were bullied o lose the money.

In another case, we even went to China and reported to the local authority. And guess what? The local authority instead of helping, told us why we didn't check the Supplier before buying.

The learning lesson from above is: you will never win a case against the Chinese if something goes wrong.

GDD
Canada

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