We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
(OP)
Florida's new high speed rail line kills 1 person for every 32000 miles travelled. https://www.wesh.com/article/deadly-brightline-cra...
It's a great headline number, but of course it is referring to vehicle miles, not pax miles. Number still seems rather high.
It's a great headline number, but of course it is referring to vehicle miles, not pax miles. Number still seems rather high.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I wonder what the question is.
I guess the train has hit zero houses, zero apartments. So living near a train, even a murder train, seems pretty safe.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
--- Best regards, Morten Andersen
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Florida is not accustomed to train traffic in cities any more, and has probably never been accustomed to them in suburbs. We still had freight trains in town in St. Petersburg when I was a kid, and I'm pretty sure the last circus train came right into downtown while I was in high school...maybe they kept running after I left? But they've always been slow and infrequent. So the introduction of frequent, high speed rail...especially in southeast Florida...is sure to confuse and kill a lot of Floridians.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
https://abcnews.go.com/US/5-dead-2-injured-train-s...
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Do European high speed trains intersect roads, or do they have their own right of way?
--
JHG
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
My daughter commutes from Coral Gables (S. Miami) to Palm Beach Gardens a day or two a week.
My gut feel for this is that FL auto fatality rates are high. Most states that are higher are much lower population so per capita is misleading.
The US average is 1.5/100,000,000 miles (not pax miles).
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P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Maybe people/houses/apartments being hit by rebounding suicide victims?
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
High speed trains doesn't have road crossing. Only viaducts. Totally separated from road traffic, pedestrians etc. Actually this is true for most RR traffic except for the remote countryside with old lines and little train traffic.
--- Best regards, Morten Andersen
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I do recall that when trains were first introduced, some places required a guy on a horse to ride in advance to warn people. Maybe this should be reinstated. Maybe not with a horse, though. Perhaps an AI-equipped drone.
Just a thought.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I understand that they did that in some places during the early days of automobiles as well.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
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It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
A current post about same states in part "Brightline took a Miami-West Palm Beach rail line that had a few slow freight trains each day (and probably mostly at night) and added numerous fast passenger trains without adding any new safety precautions. The line between Miami and West Palm Beach is unfenced and crossing gates at grade crossings do not completely block the crossings (as they are required to do for faster trains)."
There are a number of additional posts on the subject. It sounds "problematic" :)
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Perhaps there should be signs posted at 25' intervals informing pedestrians that the trains might hit them if they place themselves in front of them.
I'm just guessing at the 25' distance--wouldn't want someone to accidentally miss this life-saving guidance.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Genuine "high speed trains" (TGV/ICE/etc) running at full speed don't.
But Brightline isn't that. Mainline trains running at 100mph or more can have level crossings, at least here in the UK. They are all fenced though, at least in built up areas, you can't just wander onto the tracks without noticing. You can wander onto them at crossings though.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Every place in the world that I have ridden high speed trains there have been plenty of grade crossings.
Ever heard of Japan?
Of course the fastest trains in the US are medium speed at best.
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P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Here in the US, it's turned about: the adjacent landowners have the option of fencing or not.
I am guessing the latter method was chosen because of the much longer distances and much emptier landscape. And the desire to rapidly build a rail system to develop said landscape.
Imagine fencing the right-of-way of the first transcontinental railroad. They barely pulled it off as is.
Australia being quite similar to the US, I wonder what THEIR approach to fencing is.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Not true.
A modern electric train, with wheels in good condition and running on track in good condition is remarkably quiet.
Easily not heard over ambient noise in an urban or sub-urban environment.
Horns, whistles and bells are used when approaching a road crossing, and sometime in limited-sight (for the train operator) areas. Unless the neighboring home owners have complained sufficiently to get a "no horn" zone.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I also speak from experience - 30 years of it working with passenger trains of all types and their operators.
True. Unfortunately most people have zero awareness.
100% correct.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Also, Brightline uses cushioned wheels. In a video of the train leaving the station by far the loudest sound was the train's trolley bell sound - the sound of the locomotive engine and cars was barely audible. It appears to make a soft whoosh sound rather than the typical freight train squeal and rumble.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I live in Denmark - and have travelled in Europe by train a lot and by road. And i have never encountered a road crossing for high speed tran (TGV, ICE etc.). And the number of train track crossings i know of is small. I live close to a central commuter RR track and even though its a 100 years old all crossings are bride or tunnel (viaducts). Just being curious, i tried to locate Gare Du Nord in Paris and follow one of the main trunks from that station going north that guess will carry TGV trains. As far as i checked: All viaducts. In some cases you could see old roads that had been closed of at a time - but no crossings.
--- Best regards, Morten Andersen
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
When walking along the tracks, be careful to not get run over by the trains.
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I don't believe there are any grade crossings, pedestrian or otherwise, on BART.
Of interest might be that a motorcyclist slid out while making a turn, was then flipped over a fence by his motorcycle, then fell down about 16 feet onto the adjacent BART tracks (which emerge from a tunnel at this location), and was hit by an oncoming train. I'm not sure even Evel Knievel could have done that. September 16, 2022.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
We have a mental model of what a train track means and what we need to do to remain safe around them. But unfortunately that mental model may not be as reliable if it was trained on slower, noisier trains. It seems like that could be one of the factors at work in this weird situation.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Video: One Second From Death: Rail Workers Narrowly Avoid 125mph Train
RAIB report: Report 11/2018: Near miss with a group of track workers at Egmanton level crossing
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
And the viral Australian safety video: Dumb Ways to Die
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
A train may come on any track, from any direction at any time.
120 mph = 176 feet per second = 54 meters per second.
A typical commuter or inter-city train will have an emergency brake rate of about 1.3 meters per second per second.
That means 120 mph to zero takes about 41 seconds.
41 seconds x 54 m/sec = 2,214 meters or 1.4 miles.
To not hit a person on the track when travelling at 120 mph the train driver would need to see the person and apply the emergency brake 1.4 miles before reaching the person.
Think any train driver has good enough eyesight for that?
The numbers are not in your favor. Stay off the tracks.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
That's assuming the driver even has a line of sight along a straight track section; any curve on the track nullifies even superhuman eyesight
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
It's the distance traveled at full speed during the time that the train could be slowing down.
Stopping distance from 120 mph (54 m/s) at 1.3m/s/s = 1,121 m. Pretty good agreement with the RAIB report.
If the brakes are fully applied 1,121 meters before the person, then the train will be at standstill when it reaches the person.
...exceptionally good brakes....
The limit to braking performance is adhesion between the wheel and rail.
As an upper practical bound, this limits instantaneous deceleration to about 1.5 m/s/s.
Try to apply more force than that at the wheel to rail interface will likely result in a slide, increasing stopping distance.
In ideal conditions adhesion might be as high as 0.25.
In poor conditions it might be as low as 0.01.
Adhesion is not friction - it behaves differently at the interface.
For stopping performance calculations however, it calculates like friction. That is, the maximum possible stopping force a wheel can provide is it's weight x the adhesion coefficient.
Bottom line, 1.5 m/s/s is a proven upper instantaneous limit compromise for performance during ideal adhesion and compromised adhesion.
High speed trains will typically have a lower brake rate at higher speed because for the same wheel and rail adhesion tends to decrease as speed increases.
If a higher deceleration is needed then:
Magnetic track brakes: Still rely on friction of the rail head, but the brake material can have a higher coefficient of friction that an steel wheel.
Eddy current brakes are independent of friction.
The APT appears to have neither of these - based on 3 minute of reading Wikipedia.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/DCA16FR0...
Two trackworkers were killed. The train was traveling at 110 MPH. The main cause was mistakes in judgement by some of the maintenance workers.
Here is the cab video up to 1.7 seconds before the crash (I am astonished at the ignorance of some of the comments):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUzUFkdOFCM
and here is the docket for this accident. There's a LOT of reading material.
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/?NTSBNumber=DCA16FR00...
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
If someone who grew up in that environment was suddenly transplanted to another neighborhood where the houses and yards and streets all looked exactly the same, but every once in awhile an electric car whizzed by quietly at 65mph, their intuition would fail them, and the odds of that person getting hurt shortly after moving there would go waaay up.
For the most part, people don't intend to put themselves into life threatening situations. More often they just misjudge the risk (Sure, I can multi-task and read that text while driving on the highway.... besides, it's a cat picture!)
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
So many can misjudge and think they have more time than they think (comparing it to all of the other trains) to cross the tracks.
I don't know about other areas of the country, but much of this train line is right next to residential areas and there are no fences. Just tracks in an empty field a few feet from businesses and houses.
Also in the Ft Lauderdale area, a main road runs parallel but only maybe 50 feet from the tracks, but has crossings every mile or so. So many people would make a right turn and IMMEDIATELY run into a train crossing. While you can see the tracks, if the train is coming up from behind you while you are making that right turn, you will not hear it until it's hitting your car. Yes, there are gates, but some ignore them. Also many of them malfunction so often (dropping with no train anywhere near) that some may ignore them more than they should...
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Similarly, if a person decides to go around a lowered gate, then they are responsible for being hit by the train. Surely a reasonable person would not assume that, just because there are many "false positives", that that means there are NO positives. Or. If I was going to do that, I would ABSOLUTELY make sure that a train was not coming THIS time.
Beyond that, it does look like all concerned should be revisiting the trackage with regard to safety.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
As shown in a video earlier in this thread, several rail workers, who I will remind you work on this equipment daily and are well versed in how these trains operate were barely able to dodge away from a commuter train. If you are on tracks anywhere in rural, farmland, or mountainous America, the tracks aren't always straight where you can look either direction for 10 miles. Often the tracks have multiple curves, elevation changes, and bends that limit view. In these situations, freight trains can also be difficult to prepare for, even if they are louder and slower than a typical commuter, you still have much less time that you would ever think to dodge the train, if the terrain around even allows you to evacuate the tracks, I know from experience.
I think engineered solutions, particularly around commuter tracks where the trains travel exceptionally quickly, are a prudent discussion point on these forums. I don't have a good solution (a really big mattress tied to the front of the train engine?), but I think it's worthwhile to brainstorm ideas.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
That was a mainline express, not a commuter train.
However, your point is mostly still valid.
I don't understand why tracks in built up areas aren't fenced, tbh. These incidents are all happening within urban or suburban areas, not in some cornfield 100 miles from anywhere.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
There has to be big gaps in the fence at every crossing, rendering them somewhat useless at keeping cars and people off the tracks. Fences only works well for tracks that are isolated from road traffic.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I have. It used to be difficult to avoid it if you were a kid interested in trains.
An interest usually leads to knowledge of the subject, which can be very useful when on railroad tracks.
And so I can report that although I walked along those tracks, I have yet to be injured or killed by a train. And I fully expect that state to continue.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
If those workers were only going to be on the tracks for a very short time, they should have posted a lookout. They did not.
A similar event happened on BART in October of 2013 (two killed):
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10...
Note the sentence:
"The procedures for such maintenance require one employee to inspect the track and the other to serve as a lookout for oncoming traffic, BART officials said."
Here is an NTSB report on the matter:
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReport...
I note that it was not mentioned that the employees clearly failed to provide a lookout, even though they were supposed to. I think sometimes we CAN blame the victim.
If it was going to be a "longer" time, they should have shunted the rails, which would have put up a red block for the approaching train. They did not.
In my above link to a crash in Chester PA in 2016, the workers had not shunted the rails--two died.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
That's unhelpful and rather misses the key lesson. When dealing with high speed traffic on curves with poor sighting, simply "posting a lookout" doesn't create a safe system of work. At Egmanton, there was a lookout - but they weren't deployed effectively.
If you want to be really picky, rather than saying "they" (those workers), we need to say "he" (the PiC) should have .... - which puts a different complexion on the question of whether it's OK to blame the victims. While the rest of the team must call out unsafe practices if they see them, they shouldn't be assumed to have the knowledge of line speeds, sighting distances, location of trackside aids, etc. to be able to make that judgement in every case.
A.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Another key lesson is that there's a point where you've gone from a "short time" to a longer one, and should shunt the track.
I do wonder if it was considered unacceptable to cause this VIT (very important train) to slow down, something that would have happened with a shunt.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Shunting the track isn't part of the suite of protection options available in the UK - a fair bit of the network is no longer served with conventional track circuits (even if this one is) - so the closest (and undoubtedly better than just relying on lookout protection) option would have been to take a temporary line blockage. That's an administrative faff and the local signalling centre was already running as many blockages as it could cope with.
So not really about this particular train being too important - more a case of trying not to create a huge backlog of delayed services. You could easily make an argument that this part of the network is sweated too hard, with not enough money made available to move routine maintenance to times when there's less traffic.
A.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
It is undoubtedly true. And each tragic case has its own twists and turns. But when you get a disproportionate share of problems you have to look beyond that. Brightline is apparently worst in the US.
I try to put it into context: one accident per 32,000 miles traveled (as Greg points out that's train miles, not people miles). So if the train is averaging 100 miles per hour, that one fatal accident per every 320 hours of train drive time?!? For each and every train in their fleet!?! That seems like a lot to me.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
you might find a broader number for "trespasser" deaths per train mile.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I suppose "other non-trespasser" are people at crossings? Probably explains the large number of injuries vs deaths compare to trespassers due to the protection of being in a vehicle.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Do you even care that anything you say has a factual basis? https://www.volpe.dot.gov/rail-suicide-prevention
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
https://www.volpe.dot.gov/rail-suicide-prevention/...
The statistics are not so easy to find because of these standards.
It's very disingenuous to not include the facts in reporting. It makes Trains, bridges, and guns seem a lot more dangerous than they really are. Using that logic one could argue that the Golden Gate Bridge is the most dangerous in the world yet it hasn't had a failure and I don't know of anybody that has "fallen" off since it's construction was completed.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Sure, it's fine to imply that suicide is just worthless people removing themselves from life and that it is so unfair to gun makers that they don't report suicides on train tracks like "15 year old dies painlessly and instantly when hit by train." because the public really needs to know all the details to make an informed decision about trespassing on rail property.
But then I wonder why the defending of guns and think well, if the suicides are just worthless people as implied, it's not the gun's fault or the fault of the companies that sold 1.2 times the US population of firearms.
Until I see those 1 and 2 year olds killing themselves, their siblings, their cousins, relatives, parents, unborn future family members. And a 6 year old getting gun to kill a teacher. It's like macbre roulette - guess how many days it's been since a 2 year old killed someone with a gun.
I reflect on a guy in college who got a gun for self defense and committed manslaughter over the student lounge TV station.
Maybe another thread on how unfair the presentation of gun violence is to gun makers that sell guns for export to Mexico, to be used by cartels to fight the Mexican government, to keep American supplied with fentanyl, that is defended by gun-toting gangs, to advertise how dangerous the gangs are so everyone needs guns, which makes it easier to buy guns in America for export to Mexico.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KP73CFhfjs
She plainly walked in front of an oncoming train while crossing the tracks. She did not check for approaching trains on those tracks. She (apparently) ignored the pedestrian gates. And, once warned by the safety equipment, continued walking without checking for oncoming trains.
Would YOU have done that?
WHAT are we to do here? Magic bungee cords that wisk people out of harm's way? Armored crash-proof taxis? Run trains across crossings at 3 MPH?
My view is to trust the innate survival instinct of humans (and other animals), and to not do a lot.
You may have other views. Building on that, would YOU be willing to pay for the various overcrossings, undercrossings, escalators, people movers that would be needed to eliminate human-train interaction? How much? If we did a go-fund-me, how much would you put in?
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Often the reason for stopping so close is to allow the crew to shorten their walk for a meal break rather than stopping outside the warning block on the track and leaving the sightline from the crossing clear and the signal operated by moving stock.
The railroads do this so much there are towns where children have to climb over and under rail cars to get to and from school. They have 100% immunity and no motive to change procedures. They can, and do, blame the victims.
Mary T. Wojtyla was killed by the procedure of parking so close. I have seen emergency vehicles hit by the same trap.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I have experienced issue with that same company locally, they will leave the final car across a major thoroughfare (2x2 lanes) during switching for 20 minutes. It's like a game to the operators.
I also know someone who has to cross the tracks to get to his house. It is a very unique situation. He is also a drunk that complains a lot. I have seen it, though. The railroad intentionally parks trains across his access, usually 6-10 cars with plenty of room to shift either way. They want him out.
Suicides on the track are sad but don't restrict our access due to sad people. Fence off the areas with poor visibility and let the tracks be crossable just like any other one or two lane road.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
It did NOT "sneak up" on her. And the stopped train was not obstructing her view. The person accompanying her clearly saw it, and stopped. She did not.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Is the moving train clearly visible at the distance it would have triggered the crossing from the side of the tracks all the people were crossing from? If not, the parked train obstructed her view of the moving train.
15-20 feet at 88 feet per second is less time than most people can identify a problem and far less time than they can react.
Stop making excuses for procedural failures that apply false warnings and create obstructed views. This is the most common situation for crashes at multi-track crossings.
It's not sneaking, it is making a false alarm; it is lying, it is concealing a danger.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Had there been independent alarms, one for each track, or the first train not concealed the second, she would be alive.
We know that proper alerting could be added and that sensory overload is a frequent problem, so which is the moral failure?
More than that, the nonchalance of the others crossing in front of the stationary train and its engineers indicates the parked train operator knew about the hazard over a long time, would have been aware of the risk of the second train, known that not everyone has experience around tracks, and did nothing - not even signs warning that a parked train might conceal a second one traveling at very high speed or moving to completely block the street; did not even sound a horn to protest stepping onto the track by the parked engine that could see the danger and had not involved police to arrest those going around the arms so casually and practiced.
Can't save everyone, but safety measures are there to save as many as possible and the clear observation was that they were being ignored by a lot of people.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
SHE is between us and that train.
So she could have seen what we see. It was not obscured from her view.
The mass of the stopped locomotive is not great enough to bend the light path in a curve such that we could see what she could not.
I am not sure why people seem to assume that there cannot be an approaching train hidden by a stopped one. I recall it happening locally.
"I see a stopped train. Therefore it is safe to cross all the tracks."
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I have not yet looked at that video.
Are trains louder than AC/DC on the headphones?
--
JHG
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
The parked running train and false crossing warning from the parked train were loud. The second train gave a toot on the horn, but did not sound continuously as it approached the blind intersection. Earphones or not, the noise level didn't seem to change much.
https://youtu.be/2KP73CFhfjs?t=388 is the start of the replay of the crowd behavior before the death, but sequenced on Youtube after the death, so you won't see the instant before the death without rewinding.
I see no one stop completely before going onto the second track and only a few even look.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Would you say the same if they crossed a street without looking both ways?
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Was it really a false warning? The gates typically sound for the duration that a train is within the vicinity. This even applies for switching.
I have witnessed this type of accident. I was riding with my dad in his truck on a 4 lane with center divide. We were in the left lane, another car was at our quarter in the right lane. A elder man sprinted from the center divide and cleared our lane but did not see the kid driving on our rear quarter and got hit at about 35mph. My dad and I both saw it coming from our perspective.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
The warning is that a train is moving towards or on the crossing. If the train is not moving toward or isn't in the crossing, particularly if it is obviously stopped for loading there is nothing to warn against, so the warning is false.
Trains are not radioactive nor do they emit lethal amounts of thermal or electromagnetic radiation. The only danger, aside from falling off of one, is when they are moving or blocking the road. That is when the gates and lights and bells should go.
In related news, the length of trains has increased, so towns that had two crossing would have had only one blocked if a train stopped. Now the trains are far longer creating the potential for hours every day during which a town may be cut in half, leaving children unable to reach school or go home after and no way for emergency vehicles to cross. This leads to children climbing onto and under railcars and, worse, couplers. So far the railroads have flipped the middle finger to the people and the only equal response, blocking the tracks, is currently illegal, while blocking the road is not.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
If you get hit by a train that's on tracks while the crossing alarm is sounding while it's sounding its horn... that one is on you. There is no reason to set the rest of society back.
It's funny watching everyone rip on the guy that says airbags cause deaths and then watch the same people say trains cause deaths.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I was just going to post exactly that statement, but davidbeach beat me to it.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Add in the casual nature of the majority of the crowd not making any obvious action, and someone is going to be left out.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/28151/watch-a-speedi...
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I assume the lawyer was leading the client. Perhaps we should be talking about how institutional education deprives individuals or experience based learning?
I will also admit that the school of hard knocks produces some frustratingly dense individuals.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
The warnings were clearly ignored and insufficient for so many to cross in full view of the train crew. As tempting as it is, the death penalty should be avoided for observable errors and trespasses. If I put up a sign "No Trespassing" and every day watched 100 people walk through my property from my front porch, I cannot then claim total innocence if one of them finds a set bear trap. After all, while everyone knows the damage a bear trap can do, recognizing the danger of it in tall grass is another matter.
Unlike me, rail barons bought enough politicians long enough ago to create laws that entirely insulate them from almost the entirety of liability, so they are excused from most repercussions by the bribes they made .
Perhaps how capitalism pushes private risks into public places for private profits should be included in education.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Perhaps I should argue that the warnings against Marxism are obvious and clear yet ignored by many?
Maybe it's well known that railroads have deep pockets which makes them the target of lawyers. Is that capitalism?
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Not saying there could have been better controls or warnings, but this was 1992, and people supposedly had more common sense back then. Tragic as it was, we've argued against someone else about how it's not possible to get 100% safety, and that should be true here as well. I mean, at the end of the day, if I hadn't been lucky when I was 12 and ran into a car instead of the other way around, I wouldn't be here either, so looking left and right when crossing any thoroughfare is just stuff you have to do.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I strongly disagree with this statement. We have no idea what the time gap was from the video. What I do know is that I saw a portion of video with a lot of people crossing the tracks separated by a pause and then a video with only one person attempting across the tracks. After which the fateful couple also attempted to cross the tracks.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Seems like the one who turned had experience and more than enough time to cross and not enough common sense to tell the other two a train was coming. Do you suppose that woman slept well knowing that a tap on the arm or a word would have prevented Mary from being turned into pulp and splattered across the way? Common sense would be to do what would avoid carrying that memory for the rest of her life.
Who would wash the blood off and chuckle that they knew the splatter was going to be good and just let it happen, taking odds on if it would be one or both? Common sense predicted it was going to happen.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Meanwhile let's not forget the true killer:
"Mary T. Wojtyla was killed by the procedure of parking so close."*
Death by procedure. An interesting concept.
spsalso
*from post by 3DDave, approximately 34 posts previous
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I wonder how far away she'd have to have parked...Sorry, out of context...
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
You're claiming procedure WAS followed in the train/pedestrian event. And it killed someone.
There's a difference between following procedure and not following procedure (it's kind of the opposite, in a way).
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
The casual acceptance of the pedestrians violating procedure was also a defacto railroad procedure. That was also a procedure.
Contrast that with airlines. If a passenger won't stay seated the plane will not push back from the gate. If the passenger refuses company procedure they will be removed from the plane and possibly banned from the property for life.
Airlines are the safest form of travel. Trains? Not so much because they have bad procedures and those sometimes kill people.
It was probably confusing by the contrast of good airlines procedures with crappy railroad procedures.
Recall the Florida crash a few years ago caused by not following the good procedure of triggering O2 generators and depleting the reactive chemicals prior to loading a fire bomb into the cargo bay right where it could cut the controls.
But for Mary, the railroad procedures tended to put people at risk and she was the victim. Had the railroad actively prosecuted pedestrians for going past the barriers as airlines do with uncooperative passengers, the initial crowd would have been still blocking the path. Had the railroad put a conductor at the crossing to be picked up as the end of that train departed the crossing, that would have been enough. Had the procedure been to park the train no closer than 500 feet from the crossing then the other train would have been visible to Mary and the lawyer when the crossing horn sounded and the crossing arms would be coming down and lights flashing, all reinforcing attention to the moving train.
Many locations are putting in double arms to block both lanes to prevent drive-arounds. Small changes can prevent many deaths.
Even if one thinks Mary was fully deserving and would gleefully shove her, the operator of the train that hit her wasn't deserving of experiencing that and neither was her family, the bystanders, or those who responded to the aftermath. For her it was done in an instant and no more. For everyone else, it's a large portion of a lifetime.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
California just legalized jaywalking...
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
They have proven to be safer because they have center barricades and arms that fully reach them.
It does nothing about pedestrians, but it sure eliminates drives skirting the signals.
There is a train 2 or three times a week that because of hazardous cargo always sounds the horn.
I am a ways from the tracks but it is still odd to only hear the horns every now and then.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
So do the cities that have the stations where the pedestrians are crossing the tracks.
Apparently the "procedure" of these government entities was not to do anything about it.
The particular government entity was Downers Grove, Illinois.
The stopped train was stopped because it was loading/unloading passengers at a station. The platform length is 800'. If the locomotive were to be 500' from the pedestrian crossing, that would allow only two passenger cars to be at the platform. It would also mean that passengers alighting from the train would have to walk 500' to cross the tracks. Or, of course, they could be impatient and......
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
The town may have no authority unless the railroad file a trespass complaint.
---
Car centric laws were designed to increase the danger to pedestrians. That is what jaywalking laws do.
The "WALK" sign is not matched by all-red and no-turn and as soon as I step off the curb I can be hit by turning drivers who are often looking at only the traffic they will merge with - 180 degrees from me.
If I jaywalk, I can see if the pavement is empty of cars for a great enough distance that I can cross before even the street racers can get me and I only need to look 2 directions and not 6 and I don't worry that some nearby stopped car will close the 3-5 foot gap and crush me because they saw an opening behind me and punch it to get that slot. There are cars to left and right and none behind.
Cities could place mid-block crossings to stop traffic and get the same effect, but that protects pedestrians.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I suspect the platform is placed where it is BECAUSE passengers can easily cross the tracks at the street. As opposed to, say, the tracks themselves. I can imagine the complaining from the public if they had to walk an extra 500 feet. If I was the railroad, I'd let the city decide: "We'll put it wherever you want it."
Imagine the complaining if passengers had to climb stairs to a bridge to cross the tracks. MUCH safer. Ain't happening.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Dang it, now everyone on train is going to think I'm a foamer
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Like a couple others have said unfamiliarity is the problem here. The solution isn't necessarily an engineered one. If we had adopted that approach to roads we would have all around roads fenced off once cars became the dominate road going vehicle.
I'm all for safer streets, but that is a completely new topic. Streets are where people actively live. Rail tracks are for the most part not. Though there are clear exceptions! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TvNBm0DTJg
It really isn't that hard to recognise and avoid a rail track and a train running on one. Trying to fence them off in many sparsely populated areas is like trying to fence off a river/lake/ocean to avoid drowning. Even fencing them off in a populated area is open for debate for reasons already outlined.
Sporadic. Even in large metropolises of 5milion people there are areas in inner city which are unfenced. Though crossings are largely fenced and controlled. Rural areas are often lights only, quite rural areas are merely signed.
Why is the same argument not applied to streets where we have cars? Cars are far less predictable.
This is a commuter rail line, <5km from the city centre in a metropolis of 5million people in a highly developed nation by OECD measures.
It is also located in a state and country known for its "nanny state" approach to safety. That generally exceeds safety requirements in the US and Europe. (I'm not necessarily saying that is a good thing though!) Around here whenever we have European workers on engineering site we half baby sit them the entire time to make sure they don't break any of our stringent workplace safety rules. (I'm not faulting the European workers, just pointing out the difference in standards.)
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Unless someone grew up in a cave and never watched TV or movies and never once had to cross a street, that might be a valid point; I'm having trouble seeing why the required logical leap from street to track might be so difficult to make. Babies have to learn to be afraid of lots of things, but these are not babies.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Are police unfamiliar with roads and cars and unable to convert that to rail? Apparently the answer is, Yes.
Most people "get it."
Why are there guard rails on highways if most people get it? Because there should not be a death penalty for those who do not.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
I'd hate this. I live near tracks.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzr_Qwa0U74
Driver received broken arm. And an arrest.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
"The good news is that it took a month before a Brightline train on its new Orlando route killed a pedestrian. The bad news is that it did so in the same circumstances as previous fatalities south of West Palm Beach:"
EDIT: Maybe suicide, maybe not...
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
However, that photo shows the mounts for Antiplanner's "missing" gates already installed. Depending on the photo date, those gates are likely already in.
That includes crossing gates for pedestrians on both sides of the street.
Note also the bazillion red flashing lights.
So: Gates. Bells. Red flashing lights. Possibly loud locomotive horns, unless the locals complained about the sound (then Antiplanner could blame THEM for the death).
The crossing should probably also have an Acme Hovering Grabber Drone to snatch people out of the way before the impact.
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
"It's my impression that railroads in England must fence their right of way."
Only since the 1845 Railways Act! Prior to that they may have been unfenced (before my time...)
I think that this applies to 'land designated as a railway' since any land that has been a railway has to be un-designated before it isn't a railway. So even if there are no rails, you can be fined for trespassing on the railway. This type of trespass is a criminal offence, not a civil one, in England.
Current penalty £1000 ($ 1220)
The French high speed TGV lines originally had some level crossings but these were removed and replaced with bridges / underpasses.
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course
Is there an enhancement for silly walks?
"Your crime has been enhanced." "No, that's a bad thing, for you."
spsalso
RE: We've had murder cars, now we've got murder-trains in Florida of course