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Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI
10

Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Don’t heed warnings of Day After Tomorrow ocean collapse, says Met Office
Climate scientists said a paper suggesting the Atlantic Ocean current tipping point could occur as early as 2025 was ‘overdramatised’

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
The movie, "Don't Look Up" seems to be more in line with the politics.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
How much hotter will it get over the next few decades? ponder

"Europe has been baking in a heatwave nicknamed the settimana infernale - "week of hell" - in Italy. Temperatures above 50C have been recorded in China and the US, where body bags filled with ice are being used to cool hospital patients. The UK has just had its hottest ever June.

And in 2022, the UK recorded a temperature above 40C for the first time. Last year's heatwave has been blamed for 60,000 deaths across Europe.

It's no wonder the United Nations has warned we now live in the era of "global boiling".

"I think it's really important to realise it's no longer just something that's distant or far away from us or something in the future. We are really seeing it now," says Prof Lizzie Kendon from the Met Office.

So what does the changing climate mean for our bodies and our health?

I tend to collapse into a sweaty puddle when it gets hot, but I've been invited to take part in a heatwave experiment.

Prof Damian Bailey from the University of South Wales wants to give me a typical heatwave encounter. So we're going to start at 21C, crank up the thermostat to 35C and then finally up to 40.3C - equivalent to the UK's hottest day.

"You will be sweating and your body's physiology is going to change quite considerably," Prof Bailey warns me."


https://www.bbc.com/news/health-66249805

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

So what does the changing climate mean for our bodies and our health?

According to the evidence it means health and longevity.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
We'll have to wait and find out...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

We need to work with the data we have. Our current data says most people will be happier.

SwinnyGG, you keep walking around the question. If water has the same absorption spectrum as CO2, what IR energy is being reflected by water for the CO2 to absorb and re-emit?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (Our current data says most people will be happier.)


Some of it...

"Can we be happy, motivated, or useful while on a seemingly burning planet? Is there any way to energetically take effective action to stop—or at the very least strongly delay—the destruction while simultaneously being overwhelmed by it?

For many people, taking action against climate change feels like an almost unbearable task, facing them too late and with too few options of attack.

This overwhelming feeling is all the more present for those who’ve inherited an overly polluted and depleted planet. A December 2021 study looked at the climate anxiety of 10,000 people aged 16 to 25 across ten geographically varied countries. Researchers found that 59% of people were very or extremely worried and 84% were moderately worried. Additionally, 75% find the future frightening, and 45% say climate change poorly impacts their daily life and functioning.1

It’s worth noting that climate inaction is far different from climate denial. The latter “is the complete lack of acceptance that climate change is a manmade problem. Climate inaction is the delaying of the action we know we need to take,” says Saba Harouni Lurie, a licensed therapist and founder of Take Root Therapy. Climate inaction is an issue itself but an understandable and solvable one."

https://www.verywellmind.com/psychology-of-the-cli...

and

"To investigate how prevalent psychological distance to climate change really is – and whether it might prevent climate action – the researchers systematically reviewed the available evidence.

First, they analysed data from 27 public opinion polls from around the world – including China, the US, UK, Australia and the EU – finding that most people perceive climate change as happening now and nearby. And this was not just in recent polls. Data from as far back as 1997 indicated almost half of US respondents believed climate change was already occurring.

Second, based on an analysis of past studies, they found people who perceive climate change as more distant do not necessarily engage in less climate action. Indeed, some studies have shown the opposite pattern. People who perceived climate change as affecting people in far-away locations were more motivated to support climate action.

In short, the evidence for the idea that psychological distance is preventing us from climate action is very mixed.
Third, after examining 30 studies, the team found very little evidence that experiments aimed at changing people’s perception of the psychological distance of climate change actually increase their climate action. For example, studies where people watch videos about the impacts of climate change in local versus distant locations do not show these people having different intentions to engage in environmental behaviour.
"

"https://theconversation.com/most-people-already-th..."

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

The facts of climate denial is ignoring geoengineering and what it is causing.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Don't you hate it when you lose so much ice? Fortunately a cubic foot of ice is only 0.92 a cubic foot of water. pipe

"As the Northern Hemisphere swelters under a record-breaking summer heat wave, much further south, in the depths of winter, another terrifying climate record is being broken. Antarctic sea ice has fallen to unprecedented lows for this time of year.

Every year, Antarctic sea ice shrinks to its lowest levels towards the end of February, during the continent’s summer. The sea ice then builds back up over the winter.

But this year scientists have observed something different.

The sea ice has not returned to anywhere near expected levels. In fact it is at the lowest levels for this time of year since records began 45 years ago. The ice is around 1.6 million square kilometers (0.6 million square miles) below the previous winter record low set in 2022, according to data from the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC).

In mid-July, Antarctica’s sea ice was 2.6 million square kilometers (1 million square miles) below the 1981 to 2010 average. That is an area nearly as large as Argentina or the combined areas of Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, and Colorado"

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/30/world/antarctic-sea...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Ugly news... and not good.

https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/32293...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

If climate change is such an existential crisis and USA/Europe are not going to be able to offset China's increasing coal consumption I guess we're just going to have to go to war with them.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I hate to remind you, Tug... it's not just China. The US per capita footprint is twice that of China. Fossil fuel also includes petroleum and natural gas... they are all bad. The UK, for example, just put a coalburning power plant on line, recently. It makes little sense to accommodate climate change by adding to the chemicals that are causing it. No one seems to be doing anything.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (guess we're just going to have to go to war with them.)


That's a bad idea... I'm too old to learn Mandarin. Reminds me of an old Tom Lehrer song, "In English and German, I know how to count down, but I'm learning Chinese, says Wernher Von Braun."

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Is it a cause with fighting for or not?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Look at our governments... is it? There needs to be a concerted effort in resolving the matter... it's not happening. 14.86t for US vs. 8.05t for 2021, and 14.12t vs. 7.79t for 2020, all per capita for US and China, respectively. The numbers don't seem to be going down... China increased by 0.26t and the US increased by 0.74t... big difference, this is per capita and China has 5x the population. Their net addition is approx 1.3t. Both not doing nearly enough.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

SwinnyGG, you keep walking around the question. If water has the same absorption spectrum as CO2, what IR energy is being reflected by water for the CO2 to absorb and re-emit?

I'm not 'walking around' anything. I've answered this question twice, in two relatively deep explanations of the very well documented and well understood IR exchange portion of the earth's energy balance.

You just ignore what you don't want to hear, because the facts destroy your politicized point of view.

Water does not have the same absorption spectrum as CO2. No one said that, and it's not a physical reality.

You're again using the word 'reflected' to describe a process of absorption and re-emission. At this point it can only be deliberate.

Go read my previous posts again. They are easy to follow. At this point if you don't understand them, that's deliberate too. So you're either determined to maintain ignorance, or you're trolling. Which is it?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Maybe Google needs to sort their algorithm out. When I search CO2 absorption wavelength it tells me that CO2 primari absorbs at 15μm.

Quote (Google)

It has a long lifetime in Earth's atmosphere. Carbon dioxide strongly absorbs energy with a wavelength of 15 μm (micrometers).

So does water.

At 4.3 μm the story is very different. It was a reasonable question to ask.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

It was a reasonable question to ask.

It's a question that's already been answered, twice. You continue to ask questions like this because you're trying to find some 'gotcha' that will allow you to say "this whole theory can't be right because I found this one thing that makes no sense!!!"

The problem with that is that you A) don't understand the mechanism well enough to challenge it and B) the mechanism we're discussing is well understood enough, and simple enough, that you aren't going to be able to disprove it, as much as you'd like to.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I'm trying to understand the discrepancies between the models and observations. For example, you make this comment:

Quote (SwinnyGG )

CO2 molecules absorb infrared, which is then re-emitted. 50% of the re-emission is back toward the earth.

But that's quite the leap of illogic to assume 50% of the energy is emitted downwards and 50% upwards. Even very close too the surface of a sphere, energy emitted laterally isn't going to impact the sphere. As you move away from the sphere even more of the laterally biased emissions are going to miss the sphere.

My initial point was that it may be important to consider the reflection wavelengths vs the absorption wavelengths. I did make an error when I confused CO2 reflectivity with re-emission.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Here's an interesting observation, last year there was an enormous underwater volcano which blasted an enormous amount of the most important greenhouse gas and some other aerosols into the stratosphere. https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-022-00652-x
"the available data provide enough evidence to rank this eruption among the most remarkable climatic events in the modern observational era and strongest in the last three decades."

This is a possible part explanation for the current perceived 'exceptional' heatwaves.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

Even very close too the surface of a sphere, energy emitted laterally isn't going to impact the sphere

More attempts at obfuscation.

The farthest a CO2 molecule can be from the surface and still be captured as part of the atmosphere is about 60 miles.

The earth is 8,000 miles in diameter. For the sake of modeling this effect, the earth isn't a sphere.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

SwinnyGG, you keep walking around the question. If water has the same absorption spectrum as CO2, what IR energy is being reflected by water for the CO2 to absorb and re-emit?
Sunlight heats ocean water directly and more efficiently than higher temperature ambient air.
Clear skies cause hotter oceans.
But,
Wind storms with the attending waves and spray tend to cool the oceans by evaporation.
The warmer the water, the more efficient the evaporation.
And apart from that, is the green house effect.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Surf's up...

"The study, published Tuesday in the Journal of Geophysical Research: Oceans, looked at nearly a century's worth of data and found that the average height of winter waves has grown by about a foot since 1969. The number of storm events that produced waves greater than 13 feet in height has also increased, the study found."

https://www.npr.org/2023/08/01/1191216362/surfs-up...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Respectfully, Tug; I have a couple of issues with that article.
1. "Anderson Economic Group is one of the most recognized boutique consulting firms"
A "boutique consulting firm" Someone that may be hired to push an adgenda.
2. Data, the Anderson Economic Group does not show the actual gas and electric prices that they base their conclusions on.
3. The cost shown to gas up a small car is about 20% of my cost.
The cost shown to gas up a truck is about 10% of my cost.
I have no idea what agenda "Anderson Economic Group' is pushing, but they are pushing it hard.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

What was really strange about it is that I heard the story on CBS radio today. When I Googled it to share here I saw that the story, word for word, was published as early as January. I thought the delay was odd.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Full report below:

https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/u...

Their conclusions are based on a lot of very goofy assumptions.

Such as - they calculate a value for time lost to refuel. No issue with that.. except the calculation for EVs includes a cost for 'time lost to refuel' at home. Everyone I know who has an EV, which is a fair number at this point, charges their car when they get home after work. They're home already. How is that a time cost?

They also assume that everyone with an EV makes an average of 6 trips to commercial chargers per month, and fully charges the car each time. Also completely ridiculous. I know of no one who does that. Maybe people do, but in order to require paying for a full charge every 5 days, you'd have to be driving a lot of miles and you'd have to be away from home for a loooong time.

They also assume that each of those 6 trips involves 10 'deadhead miles' - miles not taking the driver where they want to go, but instead spent looking for a charger. 10 miles per charging trip is a lot, especially when their average number of commercial charging trips makes no sense at all.

I know of one friend who I know, just from talking to them, that regularly charges their EV at the grocery store. They drive to a different grocery store, which is a mile or so further away, and while they are there they plug in since it's free. So yeah, they actually pay for it because the groceries at that store are a hair more expensive, but their total actual added cost is a couple of bucks once a month and one extra minute each way.

Their estimate of EV use with 'mostly home charging' is a 60/40 split between home charging (at .17$/kWh) and 'commercial' charging (at .43$/kWh). Meaning the best case scenario they present is 40% paid charging. Ludicrous. Not even close to the average behavior of an EV owner. If you re-calculate everything, not even correcting for their weird evaluation of time cost for charging at home, to 95% home charging and 5% commercial, the numbers completely fall apart and the EV is significantly cheaper. I'd argue that 90-95% home charging at off-peak power rates is much closer to the average behavior of an EV owner in 2023.

I'm definitely not in the 'EVs are a panacea' camp, but this report is BS.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I mostly shared it not because of quality but because it was reported on a very "mainstream" news service. It's a rare example of the mainstream going against themselves. Real analysis is important as we move forward with many states banning the sale of combustion powered cars, trains z tugboats, rough service light bulbs, etc...

I'm especially mad about the push for heat pump water heaters and the simultaneous cut in refrigerant production by 40%

Swinny, I have to question every aspect of climate change because it's being used to justify rules that are catastrophic to every aspect of our lives. I can't wait for ammonia to become the refrigerant of choice in household appliances.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

I have to question every aspect of climate change because it's being used to justify rules that are catastrophic to every aspect of our lives

That's the thing. No you don't.

You can make whatever argument you want about the political reaction to the reality of climate change. I won't argue with that very much, if at all. I generally don't buy in on the climate change doomsday sensationalism. Humans are very good at adaptation, and that isn't going to change.

The political reaction and the physical reality have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Nothing. Zero.

And there is very little about the political reaction, even at the most extreme end, that is 'catastrophic to every aspect of our lives'. That's the exact same bullshit doomsday sensationalism, just at the other end of the spectrum. Climate change has been a political concern in some form for more than 30 years, and the true impact to your daily life up to this point has been basically zero. The only reason you, or any other American, would walk around every day wracked with worry about climate change would be if you choose to. The rest of us just keep going to work. Life goes on.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Don't forget, I'm on the "sea levels have risen 400 feet in 14k years team". I only question how much CO2 levels have contributed to that.

And yes, we do have to worry about taking catastrophically stupid actions to stop the inevitable.

https://www.space.com/sun-umbrella-attached-to-ast...

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

So you ACTUALLY think that parking a solar sail on an asteroid is a concept with any chance of being brought into reality?

You truly believe that?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

No, there will be a ban on rocket fuel before it can happen.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Do you not understand that you freaking out over people saying wildly unrealistic shit on the internet about how to fight climate change is EXACTLY the same as Dik freaking out over people saying wildly unrealistic shit on the internet about worst-case consequences of climate change?

Quote (The Article Linked Above)

A viable shade would thus need to be massive — weighing millions of tons — and made of a material sturdy enough to stay in place and stay intact

Millions of tons. There is no reality in which we construct a structure weighing billions of pounds, launch it into orbit, and mount it to an asteroid which itself likely weighs billions of tons, which we captured from light minutes away and towed to an L1 point in earth orbit.

Do you have no concept of how absurdly unrealistic that is? Seriously?

The ridiculous concepts which are being made up by dudes in think tanks mean absolutely nothing. Less than nothing. That concept will never, ever happen.

The fact that you think something like that is somehow 'catastrophic to every aspect' of your life is even wilder than any of the other stuff you've said in these threads.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

I have to take it somewhat seriously

No dude, you don't. That's a choice you make. You are choosing to have an irrational point of view based on unreasonable overreactive fear of the implementation of think tank ideas that will absolutely never, ever come to fruition.

And as part of the position you've chosen to take, you belittle Dik for choosing to have an irrational point of view based on unreasonable overreactive fear of consequences of global warming which according to even the most pessimistic models are still likely to ever come to fruition.

How do you not see the fallacy here? Seriously?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Carbon negative concrete... (Not verified)

"But this 5,000-square-foot repurposed pole barn hides a distinction that could be a milestone in the Architecture 2030 Challenge: the facility’s concrete floor. Or, more accurately, the carbon-negative concrete floor. This otherwise unremarkable concrete slab holds the sequestered equivalent of 10,230 pounds (more than five tons) of atmospheric CO2. The floor is believed to be the first carbon-negative concrete placement in North America.

It’s a sustainability breakthrough of incalculable importance. As the world’s most popular building material, concrete accounts for about 7% of the world’s annual greenhouse gas emissions. Any process that reduces this figure could be transformative to the built environment.

“If we are going to pull back from the brink of climate change, then we have start actively sequestering carbon. It can’t be minor offsets. We need high impact applications. Concrete is high impact,” says Remy Drabkin, owner and operator of Remy Wines, near Dayton, Ore. Her vision and insistence on a carbon-trapping concrete solution was the catalyst for a concrete formulation that now bears her name: the Drabkin-Mead Formula. Mead is John Mead, the owner of Solid Carbon in nearby McMinnville. An ardent environmentalist, he has a sophisticated understanding of ready-mix concrete science. “We broke hundreds of test cylinders before arriving at a formulation that exceeded our expectations,” Mead explains."

https://www.architectmagazine.com/design/culture/a...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (Dik for choosing to have an irrational point of view)


My concerns are real and not irrational. I don't know where this is taking us, but I'm pretty sure it can get real ugly (I don't know for sure and I don't know if it will happen). The recent global 'heat dome' may just be a pre-cursor of what can happen, and it can get a lot worse. We just have to wait and see.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Your level of fear is completely irrational.

Pretty much every single one of your posts contains:

"I'm pretty sure"
"Can"
"May"
"Might"
"Don't Know"

Etc etc etc.

You're chicken little. You don't know, by your own admission, and you're apparently terrified anyway. That's not rational. Not even close.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I guess it depends on how ugly it can get. I don't worry about the outcome...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Some completely irrational actions HAVE been taken:

California is attacking its transportation system.

https://calmatters.org/environment/2023/04/califor...

This has been signed into law. It is beyond being a think tank idea.

Also, my issue with think tank ideas is that they are often a drain on taxpayer funds. Most of these doomsday climate change studies are government sponsored. There no sponsorship for studies that may provide balanced or contrary findings.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (SwinnyGG)

You're chicken little. You don't know, by your own admission, and you're apparently terrified anyway. That's not rational. Not even close./quote]

There is at least SOME rationality to it. We know the earth has been warming. We know that CO2 has a warming effect. Also, CO2 emissions have gone up on a nearly exponential scale. It's rational to worry that this COULD lead to runaway warming over the next century.

Now, I think there is a big difference between "worry" and being "terrified". I'm worried. The global warming alarmists are terrified... or are trying to make us terrified. Personally, I think dik is somewhere between those two descriptions.

There is a quote from Elon Musk that I liked when he was pressed on this subject:
[quote Elon Musk]We're running the most dangerous experiment in history right now, which is to see how much carbon dioxide the atmosphere... can handle before there is an environmental catastrophe.

Now, that doesn't mean that we have to commit economic suicide and completely eliminate fossil fuel use. But, we need to make incremental changes to encourage and fund CO2 free energy. Maybe impose taxes on the worst CO2 emitters to fund these policies.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

There no sponsorship for studies that may provide balanced or contrary findings.

There's a boatload - start reading the scientific literature instead of the summaries by journalists and your opinions of what the scientific community is saying will dramatically change.

Quote (TugboatEng)

This has been signed into law. It is beyond being a think tank idea.

Ok, so how has this new law (which contains more holes than a block of swiss cheese to let operators out if they meet certain easy-to-meet conditions, by the way) which is likely to get modified based on the fact that technology isn't really ready to meet the demand it creates, 'catastrophically' impacted your daily life?

Bet it hasn't, at all. You're just complaining about it because, for the millionth time, your political choices require you to think climate change is a lie. Same old story.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I'm not terrified of it... just looking at the events of the last few years, I can see things getting a lot worse and no one seems to be doing anything (I'm pretty sure they are getting worse and that this is not just an anomaly). Climate change is a direct result of the carbon footprint... and this continues to go up. My concern, and it's not an irrational one, is that it will progress to something a lot worse, with all sorts of geopolitical fallout.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

There's a boatload - start reading the scientific literature instead of the summaries by journalists and your opinions of what the scientific community is saying will dramatically change.

I found this one interesting. It's published in a peer reviewed journal but has really irked a lot of climate scientists.

https://environmentalsystemsresearch.springeropen....

In his study he makes an assumption that ocean surface heat stays on the surface and that atmosphere heat doesn't move up and down much. Using this much smaller thermal mass, the heating can be attributed directly to energy use. That's not so good for nuclear and solar.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

In his study he makes an assumption that ocean surface heat stays on the surface and that atmosphere heat doesn't move up and down much

Problem with that is that this assumption is wildly incorrect.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

You must be a very fast reader.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

The assumed boundary layer limits are listed in the results portion of the summary, just below the abstract.

Wildly incorrect and right up front where I found the values in about 10 seconds of reading.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Is there something wrong with the boundary layer limits assumption? I think it's quite reasonable to assume that convexti will keep most of the warming water in the oceans towards the surface.

It gets a little muddy when discussing the atmosphere but inversion layers do exist and they do block upwards air currents.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

The assumed max boundary layer depths are 0.2 m for the ocean and 100 m for the atmosphere.

Both of those numbers are wildly unrealistic. Inversion layer behavior is common - that's correct - but inversion layers are hundreds or thousands of meters above the ground.

Similar in the ocean analysis - there are all sorts of temperature gradients and modes of transporting heat from the surface down. But assuming that only the top 20 cm of the ocean receives any heating and that none of of that heat is circulated any further down is nowhere near a reasonable approximation of reality.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

How are they wildly unrealistic? Sure there are some currents but there isn't a hole lot to drive mixing from the surface to the depths. Heck, even in the surf zone there is hardly any downwards movement of the water despite the waves crashing down above.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Sunblock...

"Some of it sounds like mad science, maybe the master plan of a Bond villain. One idea resembles a plot from The Simpsons.

Humans have given it a low-key name: geoengineering. But it's nothing less than changing the Earth — the air, the clouds, the oceans — so that we can hold off on global warming's most devastating effects until we cut our carbon pollution.

"Make no mistake: This is a really big deal," Daniel Schrag, director of the Harvard University Center for the Environment, told CBC Radio's The Current, specifically referring to solar geoengineering. "We're talking about engineering the climate intentionally for the whole planet."

Here are some of the big ideas that have been discussed, how they work and what they might mean for the planet."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/climate-change-stopg...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

That's completely insane. Reducing the amount of solar irradiance impacting the Earth will reduce the amount of photosynthesis removing CO2 from the atmosphere as well.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Here's a picture of the shadow cast by a moon sized sun-blocker at a moon sized orbit. As you can see it shades approximately bugger all of the earth's surface. L1 is 4 times further away. Stop this silliness.

https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/v1691023951/tips/RBfhmprcqT8kz22DRVWL8Z-970-80.jpg_lp01gt.webp

https://www.space.com/32245-total-solar-eclipse-vi...

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Remember, SwinnyGG, what you have just witnessed is the result of the "believe the science" mentality.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

How are they wildly unrealistic? Sure there are some currents but there isn't a hole lot to drive mixing from the surface to the depths.

As usual, you're completely wrong. ocean currents - that's all of them - continuously mix water of different depths. Billions and billions of gallons a day are transported from the surface to deeper depths, and vice versa.

Stick to tugboats dude. You're completely lost. All attempts to explain even the most basic concepts to you are a complete waste of time. You have no interest in learning anything. It's crystal clear.

Quote (TugboatEng)

Remember, SwinnyGG, what you have just witnessed is the result of the "believe the science" mentality.

What I've just "witnessed"? Would that be Dik posting completely asinine things, and another poster rightfully calling them out as BS?

Dik is clearly not an adherent of 'believe the science' - whatever that even means. He's way beyond the level of alarm the data presents, and way beyond any reasonable level of response.

You are exactly the same. It's baffling that you don't see it at all.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (SwinnyGG)

Billions and billions of gallons a day are transported from the surface to deeper depths, and vice versa.

Maybe you have a perspective problem because that number is quite small compared to the volume of water contained within the top 0.2m of the oceans.

You're discounting a peer reviewed paper without any numbers to back it up. I'm not saying the author is the authority but he brings up some interesting points that may explain gaps in the climate change models.

Personally, I am biased to support Bian because it supports my belief that we need to reduce consumption of all energy. Bian did not come to that conclusion, he supports a shift to renewable energy which I think is counterproductive to his goal.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

Maybe you have a perspective problem because that number is quite small compared to the volume of water contained within the top 0.2m of the oceans.

Again, again, again, wrong. Very wrong. Out of your depth wrong.

'Billions and billions' is a euphemism. Want the actual number? I know what it is, but I'm no longer going to spoon feed things to someone who cares nothing about actual fact.

So from now on, if you actually want to have a discussion, post what you think the number is, and why you think the above approximations of oceanic and atmospheric boundary layer thicknesses are realistic in purely scientific terms.

Burden of proof lies on the claimant. So unless you can provide some sort of explanation of why you think the things you think, beyond 'it seems that way', your opinions mean absolutely nothing. I've done a great deal of explaining in depth, using actual verifiable facts and processes. You've done nothing.

By the way, Springer Open is an open journal. That means something. You should read up on that, too.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates momix vidmate apk

-Dik

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Via The Australian: Cliff Mass, professor of Atmospheric Sciences at University of Washington, said the public was being “misinformed on a massive scale”: “It‘s terrible. I think it’s a disaster. There’s a stunning amount of exaggeration and hype of extreme weather and heatwaves, and it’s very counter-productive,” he told The Australian in an interview. “I’m not a contrarian. I‘m pretty mainstream in a very large [academic] department, and I think most of these claims are unfounded and problematic”. …

Professor Mass said the climate was “radically warmer” around 1000 years ago during what’s known as the Medieval Warm Period, when agriculture thrived in parts of now ice-covered Greenland. “If you really go back far enough there were swamps near the North Pole, and the other thing to keep in mind is that we‘re coming out of a cold period, a Little Ice Age from roughly 1600 to 1850”.

#

John Christy, a professor of Atmospheric Sciences at the University of Alabama at Huntsville, said heatwaves in the first half of the 20th century were at least as intense as those of more recent decades based on consistent, long-term weather stations going back over a century. “I haven‘t seen anything yet this summer that’s an all-time record for these long-term stations, 1936 still holds by far the record for the most number of stations with the hottest-ever temperatures,” he told The Australian, referring to the year of a great heatwave in North America that killed thousands.

Professor Christy said an explosion of the number of weather stations in the US and around the world had made historical comparisons difficult because some stations only went back a few years; meanwhile, creeping urbanization had subjected existing weather stations to additional heat. “In Houston, for example, in the centre it is now between 6 and 9 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than the surrounding countryside,” he explained in an interview with The Australian.

Professor Christy, conceding a slight warming trend over the last 45 years, said July could be the warmest month on record based on global temperatures measured by satellites – “just edging out 1998” – but such measures only went back to 1979.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

Ok, so how has this new law (which contains more holes than a block of swiss cheese to let operators out if they meet certain easy-to-meet conditions, by the way) which is likely to get modified based on the fact that technology isn't really ready to meet the demand it creates, 'catastrophically' impacted your daily life?

Funny bc everybody in diesel development's been hearing that same nonsense for 20 years. Trillions in lost revenue later, the market for restored antique trucks and equipment went from nonexistent to thriving bc we allowed politics to get ahead of the natural, capitalistic development of technology.

The reality of being an automotive engineer stateside today is that jobs are disappearing due to electrification, so it indeed is having a "catastrophic" impact for many.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (CWB1)

natural, capitalistic development of technology

Got kids? What them breathing heavy smog?

Left unfettered, capitalistic development of technology would've resulted in all of us driving around in cars filled with leaded gas and no cats. They'd be cheaper probably, and make more power probably, but would that be worth the impact on the quality of the air you breathe 24 hours a day?

By definition, capitalism does not always progress on the path that's in the best interest of society at large. Catalytic converters, seatbelts, airbags - and a dozen other things - became widespread because they were mandated, not because the market demanded them universally. Would we be better off if everyone drove a '64 Nova?

There are times where the market needs a nudge, in the best interest of society as a whole.

Can't wait for everyone to call me a communist globalist, or whatever.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
This could be interesting. Beating the record may become more and more frequent. This time, it appears we beat it by a 'bunch' for this time of year.



"Scientists are investigating why the oceans are so hot right now but say that climate change is making the seas warmer as they absorb most of the heating from greenhouse gas emissions.

"The more we burn fossil fuels, the more excess heat will be taken out by the oceans, which means the longer it will take to stabilize them and get them back to where they were," explains Dr Burgess.

The new average temperature record beats one set in 2016 when the naturally occurring climate fluctuation El Niño was in full swing and at its most powerful."

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-66387...


-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Records that only go back 40 years need to be evaluated very carefully before you claim a significant trend based on the data they provide.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Concur... some items of note. Because of the scale, the temperature range is approx 0.5 degrees and the increase is nearly half that; the most recent increase appears to be an anomalytrend; and 40 years is just a blip in geologic time.

The severe weather events seem to be on the increase, or our ability to report them has improved. There are a lot of unknowns. Where normal geologic events generally take millennium, we appear to be doing this in decades... Just something to ponder... ponder

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

You do remember that there was a volcanic eruption recently that injected unprecedented amounts of moisture into the upper atmosphere?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
...and just contributes to the problem?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Perhaps the weather anomalies are related to that eruption and not so much CO2.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

...and just contributes to the problem?

What's he's saying is that the Tonga eruption is causing a noticeable effect, and that it's completely beyond human control.

Why it's OK to 'trust the science' on a volcanic eruption and not on how ocean energy balance works is another issue, but on the topic of the eruption he's correct.

Early evaluations have estimated that the Tonga eruption would contribute to a temperature rise of roughly 0.03 0C, approximately 30% of the temperature change expected over the next decade, with that effect to last as long as 5 years (the expected amount of time it could take for the emitted water vapor to condense back out of the atmosphere). So it's a fairly significant event. A large and roughly instantaneous release of that much water vapor is also going to impact weather locally, with effects that spread over time. Those effects are very hard to predict, so we don't know exactly what they are or will be over the next few years - but they won't be zero.

While it's impossible to completely separate the effects of the eruption from other effects, it's very significant in the grand scheme, and the human race had nothing to do with it.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

Why it's OK to 'trust the science' on a volcanic eruption and not on how ocean energy balance works is another issue

Water has hugely more greenhouse effect than CO2, especially when it's injected high into the atmosphere. Water absorbs nearly all wavelengths while CO2 only absorbs a narrow spectrum. Yes that narrow spectrum is in the infra-red which we feel as heat. But, all wavelengths eventually become heat as they bounce around and lose energy. There is quite a bit more light energy in the visible spectrum than infra-red.

The science clearly isn't settled. We wouldn't need climate scientists if it were settled. I would personally like to see some quantification of the effect with regards to heat.

I would really like to see a quantification of CO2 cost of renewables. I personally feel that many renewable energy pathways at this time will increase CO2 production, electric cars being an example.

I do think we should work to reduce pollution and the most effective way to reduce pollution is to reduce consumption. Meanwhile, CO2 is not a pollutant.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (the most effective way to reduce pollution is to reduce consumption. Meanwhile, CO2 is not a pollutant.)


I disagree... in excess amounts, CO2 is definitely a pollutant. In small amounts, it's a respiratory stimulant. pipe

to pollute (Oxonian) "to add dirty or harmful substances to land, air, water, etc. so that it is no longer pleasant or safe to use"

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

By that same logic oxygen is also a pollutant.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
See the definition... pipe

In excess amounts, Oxygen is probably not good for you, either, and hence a pollutant.... pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Water in excess amounts would also then be a pollutant. Remember this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_...

Nope. CO2 doesn't do any harm to any person on it's own. In fact, it's necessary for life on earth. Without CO2, almost all plant life would die out and animals would starve to death.

The only way it harms a person or animal is actually HARMED by CO2 is if it is sooooo abundant that it crowds out all the oxygen that we breathe.

Nope. Nope. Nope. Any reasonable definition of pollutant cannot include CO2. Any attempts (by the EPA) to define it this way are anti-science BS intended solely as a means to gain more and more government control over our energy production / consumption.

Quote (Vocabulary.com's definition)

Any substance that makes the environment dirty or contaminated is a pollutant. Soot is an example of an air pollutant, and chemical pollutants can make their way into the water supply. Trash that doesn't quickly biodegrade is one kind of pollutant—think of plastic bags floating around in the ocean.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (CO2 doesn't do any harm to any person on it's own.)


In excess, it most certainly does in high concentrations... That was the point that was being made. In addition, it promotes climate change. pipe

"Studies conducted in the 1980s showed that there were 89 deaths per year in the USA alone, during work in confined spaces; 22% occur during rescue efforts [4]. A number has not decreased since. A recent study of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) in 2015 still estimated the number of deaths involving confined spaces to be around 90 per year. Unfortunately, the number of killed rescuers has risen to two thirds of those deaths [5].

Carbon dioxide does not only cause asphyxiation by hypoxia but also acts as a toxicant. At high concentrations, it has been showed to cause unconsciousness almost instantaneously and respiratory arrest within 1 min"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC53805...


-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

I would personally like to see some quantification of the effect with regards to heat.

I would really like to see a quantification of CO2 cost of renewables. I personally feel that many renewable energy pathways at this time will increase CO2 production, electric cars being an example.

All of this information you claim to want is freely available to you.

That you continue to not research anything and form bad opinions based on incorrect intuition is no one's fault but your own.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I tried using Google. That's how I came up with the boundary layer link above but that's it. Do you have any other examples of articles that discuss heat?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Good article on transportation and carbon footprint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi7U6Cj_2aI

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Uncharted territory...

"A series of climate records on temperature, ocean heat, and Antarctic sea ice have alarmed some scientists who say their speed and timing is unprecedented.

Dangerous heatwaves in Europe could break further records, the UN says.

It is hard to immediately link these events to climate change because weather - and oceans - are so complex.

Studies are under way, but scientists already fear some worst-case scenarios are unfolding.

"I'm not aware of a similar period when all parts of the climate system were in record-breaking or abnormal territory," Thomas Smith, an environmental geographer at London School of Economics, says.

"The Earth is in uncharted territory" now due to global warming from burning fossil fuels, as well as heat from the first El Niño - a warming natural weather system - since 2018, says Imperial College London climate science lecturer Dr Paulo Ceppi."

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-66229...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

NASA estimates the water vapour mass in the atmosphere has increased by 6% due to the volcano. Water vapor is half the greenhouse effect, which raise the Earth's surface temp by 33 deg C. So a 6% shift of half is about 1 deg C of possible warming. On the other hand there were some aerosols which will bring it back down.. The BBC of course wants to ignore this as it is off-message. (Edited the spike due to the volcano is about 1 part in 16)



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
They both contribute... the watervapour from the volcano has little effect in increasing the oceans temperature... maybe a little, but not much... just another red herring...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Who told you that?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

the watervapour from the volcano has little effect in increasing the oceans temperature... maybe a little, but not much... just another red herring...

Incorrect. The effect has been evaluated and quantified via scientific study. Estimates are that the volcano 'fallout' will have a statistically significant effect.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I maybe stand corrected... I would have thought the effect was small and of a short time... thanks. Do you have a source?

"Volcanic eruptions that occur underwater have a minimal effect on the temperature of the oceans. Dr. May Ver, a lecturer in the Department of Earth, Ocean and Atmospheric Sciences at the University of British Columbia says that the volume of ocean water above the volcano has a cooling effect. It would take an extremely large eruption to make a difference, but those are very rare. Sub-marine eruptions are also unlikely to release CO2 to the atmosphere and contribute to global warming."

"Volcanoes can impact climate change. During major explosive eruptions huge amounts of volcanic gas, aerosol droplets, and ash are injected into the stratosphere. Injected ash falls rapidly from the stratosphere -- most of it is removed within several days to weeks -- and has little impact on climate change. But volcanic gases like sulfur dioxide can cause global cooling, while volcanic carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas, has the potential to promote global warming."

"Volcanic eruptions are often discussed in relation to climate change because they release CO2 (and other gases) into our atmosphere. However, human contributions to the carbon cycle are more than 100 times those from all the volcanoes in the world - combined."


-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

The Tonga eruption was very, very large. Conventions about the normal 'average' volcanic eruption do not apply.

The value Greg posted about (roughly 6% increase in total atmospheric water vapor from the eruption) seem to be relatively consistent across all sources.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
The effect is larger than I thought, but maybe small in the long run... Every bit helps...

"The HTHH blast sent water vapor and other gases to at least 40 kilometers (25 miles) above Earth’s surface and punched through the boundary of the stratosphere. In this atmospheric layer, cool, heavy air rests below less dense warmer air. Because there is little turbulence to stir the system, “you can get a perturbation lasting for, in an atmospheric sense, quite a long time,” said Stuart Jenkins, an atmospheric physicist at the University of Oxford and lead author of the new study. The eruption boosted the water vapor content of the stratosphere by 10%–15%, according to the study.

Using reconstructions of global climate, Jenkins and his colleagues established the monthly baseline conditions for the 7 years prior to the eruption, then simulated the effect of water vapor in the stratosphere for 7 years after the event. The researchers assumed that the injected water vapor would settle out of the stratosphere in that time. Their model parameters are conservative, Jenkins said, and assumed the volcanic plume spread widely between altitudes and latitudes.

The model calculated the monthly change in Earth’s energy balance caused by the eruption and showed that water vapor could increase the average global temperature by up to 0.035°C over the next 5 years. That’s a large anomaly for a single event, but it’s not outside the usual level of noise in the climate system, Jenkins said. But in the context of the Paris Agreement, it’s a big concern."

https://eos.org/articles/tonga-eruption-may-tempor...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Another impact of climate change:

"More than 7,000 flights have been impacted by the severe summer storms that are pounding the eastern United States.

Nine major airports now have ground stops, including Atlanta, Charlotte, Washington DC’s three major airports, New York City’s three major airports, and Philadelphia International Airport.

Delta Airlines had around 350 cancellations, or 10% of its schedule, and more than 800 flight delays, according to Flight Aware. Overall, more than 1,300 US flights have been cancelled and at least another 5,900 are delayed, according to data from Flight Aware."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/07/business/flight-del...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

In this atmospheric layer, cool, heavy air rests below less dense warmer air. Because there is little turbulence to stir the system, “you can get a perturbation lasting for, in an atmospheric sense, quite a long time,”

I know SwinnyGG discounted the idea of a boundary layer with prejudice but here is an example. Maybe there is less mixing between layers than many climate scientists assume?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

If you've ever seen a total eclipse you'll have noticed it gets cooler pretty quickly.



But this 1 deg C bump from the volcano is not obvious in a timeframe of months after the eruption started in Dec 2021.


(better link)
So that is weird. Maybe it's lost in the noise.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Somebody is making plans... Who have thought the Fins would do this...

"Rosqvist projects that greenery will be instrumental in averting future floods, considering the expense of updating old pipe systems. With roughly 200,000 trees in parks and 30,000 lining streets, Helsinki appears relatively well-prepared. ‘We’ll need to set aside more space for green structures in zoning,’ she acknowledged.

This autumn, the city will test 17 parking spaces’ conversion to green squares in various neighbourhoods to examine how effective they are in flood prevention. Rosqvist remarked on the difficulties of increasing vegetation due to the restrictions posed by underground infrastructure. ‘At the same time, we know that trees do the best job at absorbing water, delaying the flow of storm waters, provide shade and cool the air through evaporation,’ said Rosqvist.

Greenery is already part of Helsinki’s urban fabric. Examples include the vegetated roof of the urban development division and tram rails lined with grass to aid rainwater absorption.

The climate crisis will test the city’s infrastructure, including hospitals and care homes. Helsinki is assessing the cooling capacities of these buildings during heatwaves. ‘I’d say that we’re in a hurry and need more resources. Luckily discussion on the topic has increased in recent times, and I’m hopeful we can make progress even quite quickly,’ Rosqvist concluded."

https://euroweeklynews.com/2023/08/07/climate-cris...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I would say that almost all cities in developed countries which are on the sea are doing similar planning to that of Helsinki. Finns are not leading the world, they are just a small part of the efforts to adapt.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Finland produces very high quality engineered products. I hope they don't squander any of their talent on climate change.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I wouldn't worry, Tug. City planners, gardeners, and architects don't design or make the stuff you need.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I used to have a couple of their rifles... one a Sako 243 bull barrel that I tuned up... could shoot 0.3 minutes, and an Ithica LSA55 (made by Tikka) that shot 0.6 minutes 'out of the box'. The latter was my favourite 'moose gun'... got about 8 moose with it... vastly underpowered, but worked great!

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Just a heads up...

"The world got its first preview last month of what summer will be like at 1.5 degrees of global warming — a threshold that scientists warn the planet should stay under, yet one that it has flown increasingly close to in recent years.

The average global temperature in July, the hottest month on record by far, was around 1.5 degrees Celsius warmer than the pre-industrial era that ended in the mid-to-late 1800s, the European Union’s Copernicus Climate Change Service reported Tuesday.

The announcement came after a series of deadly heat waves and remarkable record-breaking temperatures for several continents, as well as unprecedented ocean heat around the globe. Copernicus scientists say it’s the first summer month that has surpassed 1.5 degrees, offering a glimpse of future summers."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/08/world/july-climate-...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Even the antarctic is giving up the battle... It could take millennia to fix the stuff we've done in a few decades.

"“It’s going to take decades if not centuries for these things to recover. There’s no quick fix to replacing this ice,” said Caroline Holmes, polar climate scientist at the British Antarctic Survey and one of the study’s co-authors.

“It will certainly take a long time, even if it’s possible,” she said at a briefing with journalists.

This year’s sea ice minimum is 20 percent lower than the average over the last 40 years, equivalent to a sea ice loss nearly 10 times the area of New Zealand, said Tim Naish, director of the Antarctic Research Centre at New Zealand’s Victoria University of Wellington, who was not a participant in the study.

“In some cases, we are getting close to tipping points, which once crossed will lead to irreversible changes with unstoppable consequences for future generations,” Naish said."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/8/no-quick-f...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI


Jim Skea, the new head of the UN's IPCC, said it's not helpful to imply that a temperature rise of 1.5 degrees Celsius is an existential threat to humanity. He calls for a balanced approach to the climate change debate.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I agree that it's not helpful... it's like Mark Twain, "Everyone talks about the weather, but no one does anything about it." pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

I agree that it's not helpful

....then why do you keep doing it

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dick)

I agree that it's not helpful... it's like Mark Twain, "Everyone talks about the weather, but no one does anything about it."

Then why do you keep doing it?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
The 1-1/2 degrees is just a line in the sand. It's a temperature increase the earth can reach before real 'bad' things can start happening. It was a 'best guess' back then, and I suspect when it was initially raised no one actually thought we could reach it. It looks like it's happening. It was a goal to keep away from.

I keep adding material, as I come across it to keep others informed about where we may be heading and some of the current consequences. In addition, as I come across additional information that may help to mitigate the current situation in case they weren't aware of them, I pass them on, too. I just like to keep people informed... We have no idea of where climate change will take us, but on initial observations, it does not look promising if this is only the start. pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

The 1-1/2 degrees is just a line in the sand.

No it isn't. It's a relatively arbitrary value, which we currently have no idea whether or not we are actually approaching based on the available data.

If your intent is to just sound like you're asking questions about what may happen, that's not how you're coming across. You come across as an alarmist.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I said it was a best guess back then. Initially it was a value established as a maximum temperature where things could get 'bad' and a degree of heating to avoid. This value has become 'reachable' and will likely be surpassed. There is some talk about 2-1/2 degrees and even 3 degrees...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Bad things can and do happen with the global temperature average where it is now. Bad things happened when the temperature was 2 degrees cooler than it is now. Bad things will continue to happen whether the temperature goes up 1 degree, 1.5, 2,3, 4, or drops by 3,4, or 5 degrees. The climate has always changed, is changing now, and will continue to change. Dry places get wet, wet places get dry, etc. etc. We adapt, we survive, we thrive. We have more ability to control our individual environment than ever before, which is far more important (and possible) than controlling "the environment".

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I saw, but cannot find, a boM graphic of Australian annual rainfall for each of the last 3 years. Every year some regions were flooding blue, and others were drought red. The headlines write themselves. The next year the positions reversed. The headlines write themselves.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

The rains of last year made a lot of farmers happy. Not so much the dry conditions of this year. And repeat...

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
This shows a trend... but, it's too soon to tell...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

How accurate, consistent, and widespread do you think surface temperature measurement was in Australia in the 1880s?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

And where are the enthalpy measurements? Water content has a huge impact on the specific heat of the atmosphere. Temperature is a very 1 dimensional view and isn't meaningful on its own in this context. It's no different then measuring the area of a rectangle using the length of one side only.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
A move in the right direction, but delayed for a decade... Canada uses a lot of hydro, currently. This helps mitigate our huge per capita carbon footprint.

"The regulations would drive up the cost of energy slightly, but federal officials say that would be offset by the savings expected to come from moving away from fossil fuels.

The government has set a target of making the electricity grid net-zero by 2035, and the regulations are meant to help guide the way."

https://globalnews.ca/news/9887495/canada-clean-el...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

They expect demand to double and propose no plan to increase supply?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
We'll have to wait and see what it's replaced with... hopefully they have thought this out... mind you, I'm not always sure about (our) government.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

That's not how planning works. The article states only that new regulations will be imposed but makes no comment how they intend to feed the expected doubling of consumption.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Another feature of climate change that will likely increase as time progresses...

"The death toll from the catastrophic wildfires in Maui has soared to 36, and officials worry the devastation could intensify as the infernos torch more of the ravaged island.

The loss of life marked a staggering increase from earlier reports of six people killed.

A satellite image shows an overview of wildfires impacting Lahaina Square and outlets, Maui County, in Hawaii, on August 9, 2023.
Before-and-after satellite images show what the Maui wildfires destroyed
While survivors recall harrowing escapes by car or boat, many residents who fled still don’t know whether their homes and businesses have been reduced to ashes.

“The estimates that we have are thousands of people have been displaced by this event,” Federal Emergency Management Agency Administrator Deanne Criswell told “CNN News Central” on Thursday.

Among them is Dustin Kaleiopu, whose home in Lahaina was destroyed. “My colleagues, friends, family – we’re all homeless,” Kaleiopu said. “We’re hoping that the death toll does not rise too much higher.”"

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/10/us/maui-wildfires-h...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (Dik)

Another feature of climate change that will likely increase as time progresses....

Is there any evidence that Hawaii has been affected by climate change at all? They're a tropical climate. It's basically year round summer there. If you make claims like this you should demonstrate that this location has seen substantial changes in temperature and climate due to global warming.

Yes, fires do happen sometimes. It appears that the wreaked havoc on the dry side of the Island because of fierce winds from a nearby hurricane. Not sure any of this can be blamed on climate change......


LOL, I know that doesn't matter to alarmists. According to them EVERYTHING bad can be blamed on climate change. But, I prefer it when someone presents a rational justification why this event should reasonably be attributed to climate change.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

likely



Fires in Hawaii used to be caused by lightning strikes and volcanoes. Now they initiate on the side of roads. Damn, I wonder how that happens? Humans also plant non-fireproof vegetation.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

And greenies are successful in preventing preplanned burns to reduce fuel load.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Reduce the fuel loads by bulldozing. And cutting many fire breaks.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

So far as SE Australia goes this year is likely to be OK (consensus of local farmers opinions), as the ground is sodden, but next year after a hot summer all that new growth is going to go up like a torch.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

It burns cleaner when it's dry.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
...an experiment at trying to reduce CO2

"Researchers in Nova Scotia are dyeing the Halifax Harbour pink as part of long-term research project that could help reverse some of the world's greenhouse gas emissions.

Dalhousie University, along with the organization Planetary Technologies, released 500 litres of a safe, pink fluorescent dye into the harbour to see how far it will travel.

The move is the first step, says Katja Fennel, an oceanographer at Dalhousie, before researchers release alkaline material into the water this fall.

That material will effectively act as an antacid for the ocean, helping to neutralize the additional acidic carbon dioxide being absorbed by the world's oceans."

https://www.ctvnews.ca/climate-and-environment/hal...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Around here we use dye to prevent light penetration in water to inhibit photosynthesis and stop algae growth. It seems obvious that dying water would reduce CO2 absorption. Where did these "scientist" go to school?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Part of the cost of Climate Change, and a bill of $1.3B and climbing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66481977

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (Around here we use dye to prevent light penetration in water to inhibit photosynthesis and stop algae growth.)


I suspect strongly that they looked into the properties of the material they were using in as much as they looked into the properties of what they are using in your area.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

We dye ours a bluish green so that the appearance of the water isn't affected too much. I'm sure the reason for dying the harbor pink was to make a statement.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Traceability perhaps, but there are other likely other reasons.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

There is phenolphtalein which is pink in alkaline solution. Are they also raising the alkalinity of the water? Phenolphtalein is also a laxative which might not be something you want to dump in the environment.

Is Forbes a reputable publication? This reads like an essay written by a 6th grader. A list of talking points with zero insight.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelbarnard/2023/0...

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I've often used phenolphthalein (likely the same stuff) as an indicator when testing for carbonation of concrete...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I had put too much faith in autocorrect.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
It was one of the chemicals that came with my chemistry set from grade school...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Yes dik, stop the man caused climate change.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm1_TfTgUag
A trusted scientist.
Listen to the truth of the matter. Stop denying this factor of climate change.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
...he might have helped a bit?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
The cost may have gone up a tad...

"Rebuilding on the Hawaiian island of Maui following this week's devastating wildfires — which have left at least 80 people dead and countless more missing — could cost more $5.5 billion, officials forecasted Saturday."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rebuilding-maui-lahai...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
More doom and gloom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2dznfhA1gM

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
It's a start... but they have a bit farther to go...

" A Montana judge handed a significant victory on Monday to more than a dozen young plaintiffs in the nation’s first constitutional climate trial, as extreme weather becomes more deadly and scientists warn the climate crisis is eroding our environment and natural resources.

In a case that could have legal reverberations for other climate litigation, District Court Judge Kathy Seeley ruled that Montana’s continued development of fossil fuels violates a clause in its state constitution that guarantees its citizens the right to a “clean and healthful environment.” Montana is one of several states that have explicit environmental guarantees written into their state constitutions.

While Seeley’s ruling won’t prevent mining or burning fossil fuels in the state, it will reverse a recently passed state law that prohibits state agencies from considering planet-warming pollution when permitting fossil fuel projects."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/14/us/montana-kids-win...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

The mineral oil affects nothing. If that was really an issue the first place to start at stopping its over use is in the "fossil fuel" gulping jet airliners and any other turbine engine use.
How many aircraft dump raw unburnt hydrocarbons into the atmosphere a day?
I guess you didn't listen to the last video? The real reason for extreme weather conditions.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (enginesrus)

The mineral oil affects nothing. If that was really an issue the first place to start at stopping its over use is in the "fossil fuel" gulping jet airliners and any other turbine engine use.
How many aircraft dump raw unburnt hydrocarbons into the atmosphere a day?
I guess you didn't listen to the last video? The real reason for extreme weather conditions.

Give it up. No one is drinking the swill you're peddling. You're not contributing to the conversation in any way.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

These climate lawsuits are stupid beyond discription. No credit for the benefits received?

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
We'll see... they will likely have an impact on compelling other states (and indirectly other countries) to start changes to mitigate climate change. Like so much with climate change, we'll have to see what the results are.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Is that what you say when you submit an engineering proposal? We'll have to see what the results are?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

So, class action suit, plaintiffs get a free Kwhr of electricty, lawyers pocket millions. That'll help.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (So, class action suit, plaintiffs get a free Kwhr of electricty, lawyers pocket millions. That'll help.)


Maybe more than causes of climate change are broken?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I'll give you the one without conceding to the other :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Things are heating up in Canada, too. Evacuation by Friday...

"A huge wildfire in northern Canada is moving closer the city of Yellowknife, the capital of Canada’s Northwest Territories, and evacuation of the city’s 20,000 residents has been ordered, the territorial government said.

Canada is enduring its worst-ever wildfire season with more than 1,000 active fires burning across the country, including 230 in the Northwest Territories."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/17/huge-wild...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Wildfires are necessary to prevent biomass from becoming methane.

Worst ever? Al Jazeera?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (Ring me when it gets to a million ha, then it'll be in the top 10.)


I'll do that... sounds a bit like Covid. pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Funny you say that. Despite mitigation efforts, there is currently more COVID going around now than any period during the pandemic. The mitigation failed and we have learned to live with it.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
What mitigation? India, despite being nearly a third world country, had half the fatalities of the US, despite having nearly 10 times the population. The pandemic became political, and there was a price for that.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

You're starting to see the light! Or, should I say, welcome to the dark side.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

The pandemic became political, and there was a price for that.

Climate change became political a long time ago, and we're paying a price for that, too.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Sorry Tug... It's not a learning experience. I've always known that. If Covid had been more deadly, there could have been a much greater outcome. Covid will always be around, just like it was before the pandemic. Viruses don't go away... people develop immunities and viruses mutate... People will be around for a while; they are as pernicious as cockroaches.

Covid was an excellent opportunity for the world to act in unison... look what happened. I expect the same for climate change. Some countries are more political than others.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (Climate change became political a long time ago, and we're paying a price for that, too.)


You've paid a price for that including the million plus fatalities with Covid...pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

A "million plus" excess fatalities due to climate change? Care to share your evidence for that?

There have most likely been quite a few causalities in the fight against climate change, also, but I wouldn't be reckless enough to try to quantify it without some credible evidence, which would be impossible to provide. There are too many uncontrolled variables to make that claim. Likewise, I'll be very surprised if you can provide credible evidence for your claim.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Sorry... that was in reference Covid...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I can see the headline now. "1,000,000 dead during climate change."

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

So that post was off-topic and missed the point entirely.

Fighting climate change has not only cost capital, productivity, US national security, and a considerable amount of personal freedom, but in Western Europe in particular, it's caused a significant amount of suffering and death from the cold last winter.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
This could be a common occurrence in future... and with the heating of the oceans, they could get a lot worse. Maybe it's time to think about new Hurricane scales?

"Concern is growing Hurricane Hilary will unleash a prolific amount of flooding rainfall on the southwestern US and parts of California as it makes a rare move over the region Sunday and into early next week, triggering the first ever tropical storm watch for California.

Hilary could dump more than a year’s worth of rain in parts of three states: California, Nevada and Arizona. Because of the threat, a rare high risk, Level 4 of 4, of excessive rainfall has been issued for parts of California. It’s the first time a high risk has been issued for the area.

Hilary was a powerful Category 4 hurricane churning about 400 miles south of Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, Friday morning with sustained winds of 145 mph with stronger gusts, the National Hurricane Center said."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/18/weather/hurricane-h...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Dik, you do realize that the Southwestern United States gets its rainfall from monsoons and typically gets all of its annual rainfall in just a few storms. It is currently monsoon season.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

The next "disaster" to hit the news will be flooding in So. Cal. People who stupidly entered/parked in the dry streambed and got flash flooded into reservoirs. And streets/underpasses with clogged drains being attempted to cross by people who think cars are amphibious. Happens every couple years, in the same low places in the same towns and probably with the same people. Just like floods on rivers in the Pac. NW, where farmers with their barns awash tell the news cameras that they are waiting for FEMA flood insurance to pay so they can rebuild...

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
maybe more monsoonie? We'll have to wait to see what happens. The new normal (I don't like that term because it implies a static condition). I just thought the new normal, may be dynamic...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Sulphur reductions in fuel oils are causing global warming.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-how-low-sulph...

Sulphur emissions create nucleation surfaces for water droplets. This caused clouds to have more/smaller droplets which have higher albedo.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Yup... and fuel oils, too.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

"I can't wait for ammonia to become the refrigerant of choice in household appliances."

Those old servel propane refrigerators use ammonia refrigerant I think.

https://steppingintothemap.com/anthropocene/items/....

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
A new approach to local transportation that looks promising.

"Across Asia, by far the most popular form of personal transport is the motor scooter.

Thailand has 20 million of them, Vietnam 45 million, and Indonesia more than 80 million.

They are cheap and convenient - but polluting. To cut emissions, cities need to switch to a clean, electric alternative. But how?

One Taiwanese company, which has already built the world’s largest battery-swapping network, says it has the answer.

We took the bike for a ride in Taipei to find out how the system works."

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-66495578

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Does this look like a bit of an anomaly, and we are not at the end of the year?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Time travelling pathogens...

"As the climate warms, scientists have suggested that “time-traveling pathogens” unleashed by thawing Arctic permafrost may pose a risk to modern ecosystems.

Permafrost is a hard layer of frozen ground made of soil, sand and rocks in high-latitude or high-altitude areas such as Greenland, Alaska, Siberia, the Tibetan Plateau and northern Canada. This icy layer traps microbes that remain dormant for long periods of time — but a warming planet could create conditions suitable for these pathogens to return from the past, according to new research.

To better understand the possible ecological effects, an international team of researchers digitally modeled the interactions between an ancient virus and modern bacteria in a study published July 27 in the journal PLOS Computational Biology."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/18/world/ancient-virus...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Hawaii following Montana... it's still too slow a process.

"CNN's Kim Brunhuber speaks with the lead attorney in a landmark climate case brought by 14 indigenous children against the Hawaii Department of Transport over greenhouse emissions.
03:42 - Source: CNN"

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/08/20/exp-hawai...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Yes, these cases should be thrown out immediately.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I am sure the plaintiffs have foresworn all use of any products and services that trace the slightest path thru the hydrocarbon economy. <snark>

DAISNAID :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (Yes, these cases should be thrown out immediately.)


Fortunately, the number of cases will continue to increase... likely, worldwide.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Fortunately? Really? You have a lot more faith in the lawfare than I do.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Suppose the same tactic is employed in the developing world. The lawsuits find, again, the government has the duty to protect the populace from Climate Change and holds that access to affordable abundant energy shall be provided thru the use of hydrocarbons?

Happy now?

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (Suppose the same tactic is employed in the developing world.)


A slight difference, the developing world can take the US and China to task... It may just be a matter of time, and the solution may be the prohibition of fossil fuels.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Again, because climate change is existential maybe the developing world should declare war on us. That is the only solution.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

This may be the end.

Quote:

WASHINGTON, D.C. — The White House National Climate Task Force reported today that NASA scientists have discovered a mysterious spike in global warming every year between June and August.

"We're completely stumped," said Bob McMahon, White House National Climate Task Force spokesman. "Our satellite data confirms global warming keeps happening in America during these same months, almost like clockwork. Even stranger, global warming seems to hit South America in different months. Bizarre."

[link]https://babylonbee.com/news/global-warming-mysteri...][/link]

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

It's a pity the Bee didn't investigate why water crystallizes at the same season as Christas pudding consumption increases. Scientists should investigate that, after all in climate change correlation=causation. They call it attribution science.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I'm not advertising the company, but one of the links in my 'in basket' had information on electric Heat Pumps, and their green advantage.

Six Reasons to Use an Aegis Heat Pump Water Heater
There are many reasons why building owners prefer the Aegis heat pumps. Here are six of the major benefits you can reap from choosing a heat pump water heater system.


https://www.lyncbywatts.com/solutions/benefits-of-...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Let's simultaneously mandate heat pumps while banning refrigerants. Brilliant!

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Refrigerants can be green...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Yeah, putting some dye in refrigerants will make a difference.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Man, it is hot here today :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Even Bernie gets it
Bernie Sanders
Mon 21 Aug 2023 20.11 AEST



In recent years, the rapidly growing Chinese economy has eclipsed the US as the world’s major carbon emitter. Right now, China is building six times as many coal-fired power plants as the rest of the world combined – the equivalent of two new coal plants every week. Last year, they quadrupled the number of new coal plants approved compared with 2021. Current plans will see China add as much new coal to its grid as used in all of India, the second largest coal user, and five times more coal capacity as the US.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (GregLockock)

In recent years, the rapidly growing Chinese economy has eclipsed the US as the world’s major carbon emitter. Right now, China is building six times as many coal-fired power plants as the rest of the world combined – the equivalent of two new coal plants every week. Last year, they quadrupled the number of new coal plants approved compared with 2021. Current plans will see China add as much new coal to its grid as used in all of India, the second largest coal user, and five times more coal capacity as the US.

I'm very happy about this.

The additional pollution isn't great but at least we can stop having to read arguments about 'per capita' coal consumption.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (n recent years, the rapidly growing Chinese economy has eclipsed the US as the world’s major carbon emitter.)


Not on a per capita basis... they have nearly 5 times the American population. The US is nearly twice the Chinese... Politicians are overlooking this so they don't have to take any action. The recent hot spell and storms may only be a precursor to a much greater problem in the future.

In addition India has nearly 10 5 times the US population and their per capita output is approximately 1/10, the US.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

SwinnyGG,
Your state of happiness seems to have been disrupted.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

In addition India has nearly 10 times the US population and their per capita output is approximately 1/10, the US.

I don't know about the carbon output comparison, but the population of India is 4.2 times that of the US, not 10 times. China's population is almost the same as India's.

Since you like comparing things on a per-capita basis, while you're looking at stats I linked to, notice that the population density of the US is 1/4 that of China, so there's one reason our energy consumption per capita is higher than China. Of course, the major contributor is our standard of living, which is substantially better. Do you want the standard of living of the vast majority of the people in China? I sure don't.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

No, he just wants to make the US the bad guy instead of the real bad actor, China. He must read the Global Times instead of the Global News.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

If you really want to get into it, let's talk about energy consumption as compared to GDP.

China: ~2.2 kWh/$GDP (per capita)
India: ~1.45 kWh/$GDP (per capita)
USA: ~1.35 kWh/$GDP (per capita)

So, shocker, we are way more efficient with our energy than China is.

Isn't it great how this issue is actually fairly complicated and we can all find a statistic that says whatever we want

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
My error on the population, you are correct. Carbon footprint, however, is:



Having a population of 5 times as great brings their per capita to 1/8 that of the US.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

If you want to go back to the stone age, you are welcome to it.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

hokie, I get the idea he only wants Americans to do so...

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Not at all... the whole world has to get involved. Because Americans are near the top of the list, they should be setting an example. The includes all fossil fuels, not just coal...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

"Yabba dabba doo!".

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Per capita usage is irrelevant bc nature's ability to filter our emissions varies country-country with land size, density of population, and density of the greenery. The US is a dam clean place and China's polluted, end of story.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Don't forget, according to climatology CO2 is a pollutant.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (The US is a dam clean place and China's polluted, end of story.)


Unfortunately CO2 is colourless... and it only takes a little bit to cause trouble.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
From the recent Republican debate:

"Did humans contribute to climate change? That was the question from the Fox News moderators to the eight presidential hopefuls on stage.

After reading out some statistics from the deadly Hawaii wildfires, they played a clip from a member of the Young Americans for Freedom, a conservative youth activist organisation, who said climate was the number one issue for young people.

Asked to raise their hand if they thought mankind was to blame, not one went up. And only one candidate said climate change was real in the short discussion that followed.

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis said it was childish to ask for a show of hands and instead laid into Joe Biden for the president's response to Hawaii.

Former UN ambassador Nikki Haley went the furthest in agreeing with the question by saying: "Is climate change real? Yes it is."

It was up to China and India to lower emissions, she said."

It could get a little scary...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Politicians. Did you expect something different?

Regarding the 2024 presidential campaign, I'm already scared :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

Unfortunately CO2 is colourless... and it only takes a little bit to cause trouble.

Again irrelevant.
1. Both the capture and release are important to the environmental and health impact.
2. High levels of PM naturally yields high levels of COx. High levels of COx do not necessarily yield high levels of PM.

Quote:

they played a clip from a member of the Young Americans for Freedom...who said climate was the number one issue for young people.

Somebody should ask that "member of the Young Americans..." if 60 is really the new 50 bc Main Street doesnt give more than a cursory care about the climate.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
More news about how the taxpayers money is being wasted...

"Record amounts of money are still flowing into fossil fuel subsidies two years after the world’s top economies pledged to cut them. In 2021, the UK, together with key partner Italy, hosted the COP26 climate summit, an event many believed to be the world’s best last chance to get runaway climate change under control. A key outcome of the summit was that dozens of nations pledged to end deforestation, curb CO2 and methane emissions and also stop public investment in coal power.
Two years later, all those promises have gone to the dogs, with developed countries spending huge amounts of public money funds on fossil fuels. According to the International Institute for Sustainable Development (IISD), a thinktank, G20 countries spent a record $1.4tn(£1.1tn) through 2022 on coal, oil and gas.
“These figures are a stark reminder of the massive amounts of public money G20 governments continue to pour into fossil fuels--despite the increasingly devastating impacts of climate change,” Tara Laan, a senior associate with the IISD and lead author of the study, has said."

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

That's not waste... Energy Vault is, Solyndra was.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

Record amounts of money are still flowing into fossil fuel subsidies

I always wonder what a reporter (or politician) means whey they say the government is "subsidizing". When I got solar panels on my roof, I was promised a tax break of roughly 1/3 the price of the panels and installation costs. That's a genuine subsidy. Granted, it's delayed by about a year, because I don't get it until I file my taxes for 2023. If I had not finished the project I would not get that money. So, the subsidy is based on certain conditions.

When AOC criticized Amazon for getting $3 billion dollars in subsidies to move their headquarters to her district. Was it truly a subsidy? Not really. It was just a recognition that they were going to spend billions of dollars in this NY district which would be a boon to the economy. And, they wouldn't be taxed on those billions of dollars they spent.

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/02/23/amazon-dea...

My guess is that you're "record amounts" of fossil fuel subsidies are similarly merely tax breaks associated with the company making certain investments in a community.

For example, would it makes sense (regarding CO2 emissions) for a government to subsidize a power company's replacement of a coal fired plant with a combined cycle gas turbine. Yes! It would result in dramatically less CO2 emissions per MW of power produced. But, likely that would be considered a "fossil fuel subsidy" in this article.

Now, this article does highlight certain policies in Germany that would re-open older plants that had shut down years ago. Why do you think this is? Could it be the reality of people dying of cold during winter months because the country was too reliant on natural gas from Russia that is no longer available? This is politicians responding to an immediate crises which was caused by a poorly thought out strategy of dealing with a PERCEIVED global warming crisis.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Gee, the "International Institute for Sustainable Development (IISD), a thinktank".

Who could doubt them? I'm certain they don't take any government money, right?

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Climate change is created by man, and "HE" has stepped up the pace in the last 3 years.
Just listen to the disclosure whistle blowers, especially the ex Ratheon fellow.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

The chocolate bar guy?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Effect of climate change on 'critters'...

"Helpless emperor penguin chicks perished at multiple breeding grounds in West Antarctica late last year, drowning or freezing to death when sea ice eroded by global warming gave way under their tiny feet, scientists have said.

Of five sites monitored in the Bellingshausen Sea region, all but one experienced a 100 percent loss of chicks, researchers reported in Communications Earth & Environment, a Nature journal, on Thursday."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/24/warming-d...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik's article)

“Such a strategy will not be possible if breeding habitat becomes unstable at a regional level,”

So they chose to monitor risky nesting areas and witnessed the results of risky nesting. The problem is not widespread according to the article. The problem doesn't exist at a regional level.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
might be causing some problems for people, too...

"This summer’s extreme temperatures have resulted in over 1,800 deaths in Spain, a shocking reminder of the previous year’s devastating heat.

Since June 1, the Daily Mortality Monitoring System (MoMo) of the Carlos III Health Institute has recorded 95,904 deaths. Of these, 1,834 have been directly linked to the scorching heat. The data shows a peak on August 12 with 79 deaths. However, the latest figures from August 22 indicate 68 heat-related deaths, though these numbers are continually updated, according to Nuis Diario.

‘The impact of heat isn’t merely a heat stroke, which is the least of concerns. The heat itself is a stress for the body,’ says Dominic Roye, Head of Data Science at the Climate Research Foundation (FIC). He, along with Aurelio Tobias from the Centre Superior of Scientific Investigations (CSIC) and Carmen Iñiguez from the University of Valencia, recently launched the Summer Heat Attributable Mortality in Spain (MACE) application."

https://euroweeklynews.com/2023/08/25/heatwaves-cl...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Greg -

My guess is that the climate alarmists also blame any cold weather related deaths on "climate change". Isn't that the whole point in the change in terminology from Global Warming to Climate Change?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (And as we have established more people die of cold than hot.)


Yup... but the numbers for both could increase dramatically with climate change...pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

Yup... but the numbers for both could increase dramatically with climate change...pipe

See.... When it's cold it's because of global warming. When it's hot, it's due to global warming. When it rains too much....global warming. When it rains too little you guessed it... global warming.

I'm laughing with you a little bit dik. But, this is a great example of why the global warming alarmists have a tough time winning over skeptical people. These types of beliefs / statement come off as more "religious" than scientific.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
You might consider calling it climate change... could do either, and in some places, it might not do anything... pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Did you read dik's article? It's attempting to redefine what it means to die due to heat. In their new definition if you die during heat wave you died due to the heat wave. Reminds me of car accident victims being coded as COVID deaths if they had COVID during their accident.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

Did you read dik's article? It's attempting to redefine what it means to die due to heat. In their new definition of you die during heat wave you died due to the heat wave. Reminds me of car accident victims being coded as COVID deaths if they had COVID during their accident.

Literally does not say that.

Quote (Dik's article)

Since June 1, the Daily Mortality Monitoring System (MoMo) of the Carlos III Health Institute has recorded 95,904 deaths. Of these, 1,834 have been directly linked to the scorching heat.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

What does this mean, SwinnyGG?

Quote (dik's article)

According to Roye, MACE offers a ‘far more modern’ statistical estimate than MoMo, which still employs a 1990s methodology.

Does 1990's methodology make it incorrect? Do we base the validity of measurements on the decade they were defined?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Dik -

I tend to use the term "anthropogenic global warming" because it is the most accurate and precise description of what we're talking about. Though, I will admit to being lazy and using the term "Global Warming" for short. Or, AGW, but I don't like having to explain the acronym.

The problem with calling it "climate change" is that this invites people to look to anything that isn't the average normal weather for a particular day / week / month as part of a dire consequence from CO2 emissions.

I am constantly annoyed by people who say, "Look how hot it is today, I don't understand how those idiots on the other side can deny Global Warming". Just the same as I'm annoyed by people who say, "Look how much cold and snow we've had this winter, I don't understand how those sheeple on the other side fall for this Global Warming nonsense".

The data certainly seems to show some excellent (nearly incontrovertible) evidence that the earth has been warming. There is really good science to believe that our CO2 emissions are at least partly responsible. Whether you want to take this evidence and say, "It doesn't worry me much compared to the normal issues of my life" or "This is so scary, I think it might lead to the destruction of life as we know it" is entirely up to interpretation. Though I will suggest that history has never really proven the 'sky is falling' types to be correct. Not when it was nuclear annihilation, mass starvation due to population explosion, or a coming ice age.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Yup, my best guess, from lab type properties of gases, is that the rise in CO2 since 1950 is due to man, and that that is responsible for about half of the trend in global temperature. As such my model agrees with the observed temperature record (because I have 50% wiggle room), the properties of gases, and the 'consensus' (just). As to what the other 50% is, we don't have the data, because the atmosphere is such a small part of the thermal mass of the earth's surface.

I have seen estimates of the half life of CO2 in the atmosphere as small as 12 years, based on the decline in C14 levels in atmospheric CO2 since the end of atomic bomb testing. That would imply that 'something' is releasing additional CO2, whether that is outgassing from the ocean, errors in the effect of landclearing, or what, again I don't know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14

Incidentally that graph rather puts the kibosh on the meme that the atmosphere is well mixed, doesn't it? It takes years for the NH and SH C14 levels to equalise. I suppose an explanation could be that it takes a while for the C14 to get turned into atmospheric CO2.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Thanks Josh... AGW is the correct term and I'll use it from now on. I was aware of it, but didn't think many others were. I think climate change is applicable, too. We've accomplished in decades what has normally taken millennia. Climate is normally a bigger 'blip' on the geologic time line, but we've compressed it. People that dispute global warming by using areas that are colder as an example to refute it; that's why I dislike using global warming. AGW is good, but even the climate scientists are having difficulty in agreeing to the 'A' part of AGW. The earth is heating, overall, and there is an incredible amount of energy being stored in the oceans. We haven't reduced this, and it continuously increase.

As far as '...how hot it is today', I think it's their idea that things are warming up of late, maybe a little more than usual. The southern states have just broken thousands of temperature records, and will likely continue to break them. The heat is going to continue for a bit since we are doing nothing to reduce it. It will be interesting if this condition progressively gets hotter. I have no idea of what the upper limit is. That's my concern. There is no easy and painless way to fix the problem we've created. Some people are of the opinion that there is no problem. Time will tell... we may be past the point where we can 'fix' the problem.

I have a problem with people that say this is the new normal... simply because 'normal' implies something static. The new normal may mean the new 'dynamics'. We have to simply see how this 'plays out'.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

What does this mean, SwinnyGG?

You have clearly demonstrated that your mind is made up on all aspects of this topic and that actual discussion or exchange of knowledge isn't what you want.

If you post a comment that is egregiously false, I'm going to point it out for posterity and for the rest of the people reading this thread. That's what you've done here. No further discussion is really needed.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
There may be some other spinoffs from AGW (The correct term for climate change and/or global warming)...

"At the Panama Canal, where freshwater serves as the lifeblood for its lock-driven operations, the lack of abundant rainfall is leading to lower water levels and putting a squeeze on a critical international shipping artery: Canal authorities have imposed restrictions on vessel weights and daily traffic.

Just this week, the Panama Canal Authority extended those restrictions for at least another 10 months.

While the direct impact to US manufacturers, retailers and consumers appears to be minimal right now, the potential for broader disruption is growing."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/26/economy/panama-cana...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Egregiously wrong? The article clearly stated that they are redefining what it means to die from heat...

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Perhaps they are clarifying what it means to die from heat. It could be the old definition was not correct or was too inclusive.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Too inclusive? Did you read your article?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
...and this is likely the beginning, and things could get a lot worse.

"Summary
After hitting Florida, Hurricane Idalia is crossing into Georgia, bringing powerful winds and potentially life-threatening conditions
There are 275,000 people without power in Florida and another 100,000 have no electricity in Georgia
Though the eye of the storm has left Florida, the National Hurricane Center warns "dangerous" storm surge still threatens coastal areas
Florida Governor Ron DeSantis says there are no officially confirmed storm deaths, though Florida Highway Patrol says two drivers died in crashes
The head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency says Idalia is the strongest storm to hit this part of Florida in more than 100 years
Some areas of the state have been flooded, with water inundating towns and rendering major roads impassable
You can watch live pictures from around Florida by clicking the play button at the top of this page"

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-6664...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

How were the storms stronger more than 100 years ago, before CO2?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
...maybe at the beginning of CO2

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

The story said that this is the most powerful storm to strike the area in 125 years. One cannot conclude the storms are getting stronger or more frequent from this observation. The only conclusion one could make is that storms can be powerful and it's been a long time since we've had one this powerful in the region.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

"In the region" leaves a lot to interpretation. There have been major storms to hit centered 100 miles to the north and 100 miles to the south of this one, so that statement about location is meaningless, unless you happen to live right there. Typical media hype.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Well, let's look at the number of fatalities associated with this hurricane compared to some of the powerful ones that hit 100 year ago. Which one do you think is going to show a higher per capita death rate for the communities hit hardest?

You see the point here? The advancements we (as a society) have made are so significant that loss of life has genuinely gone way down.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

But, but, but, we cannot adapt to Climate Change :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
You cannot compare fatalities today because of the advanced warning everyone receives... one of the reasons weather related fatalities are down....pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Yes, adaptation to weather changes. That's what we have to do, and are doing.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

The story said that this is the most powerful storm to strike the area in 125 years.

Also likely that this number is gated by availability of data, not by quantitative analysis

In other words, 'most powerful storm ever measured' doesn't mean anything approaching 'most powerful storm ever' when the measurement period is extremely short compared to the whole of human history

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

Egregiously wrong? The article clearly stated that they are redefining what it means to die from heat...

It does say that. Two problems with your response:

1) You automatically assume that the previous version of the calculation must be correct, and that any change is political in nature. You cannot possibly know this to be demonstrably true, but you state it as fact anyway.

2) Your summary of the new 'definition':

Quote (TugboatEng)

In their new definition of you die during heat wave you died due to the heat wave.

Is categorically false.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

'most powerful storm ever measured' doesn't mean anything approaching 'most powerful storm ever' when the measurement period is extremely short compared to the whole of human history

And given the much more limited measurement capabilities available 100 years ago, making any comparison to storms from that era has a wide margin for error. Most estimates of wind speed and storm surge would have been pieced together from observing the aftermath.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

You're complaints are all based on misinterpretations.

Quote (SGG)

In other words, 'most powerful storm ever measured' doesn't mean anything approaching 'most powerful storm ever' when the measurement period is extremely short compared to the whole of human history

Who said anything about the most powerful storm ever? The point is that storms of this power have not happened repeatedly within the post industrial world meaning a change in frequency cannot be established and therefore do not have a clear link to CO2.

Quote (SGG)

You automatically assume that the previous version of the calculation must be correct, and that any change is political in nature. You cannot possibly know this to be demonstrably true, but you state it as fact anyway.

In your mind do you believe any mainstream news outlet would publish any story that normalizes or minimizes any effect from climate change? How would such a study secure funding? It's ok to be skeptical.

Have we not learned anything from COVID? They will code deaths "with" as "by". My neighbor county, Santa Clara, got caught doing this hand had to cut their COVID deaths by 25%. Those are only the ones they got caught exaggerating. That's not a trivial number.

For future digestion, that same county still does wastewater treatment but stopped testing. If any of us are familiar with area under the curve we would see that there is WAY more COVID going around right now than at any point during the pandemic. Since fewer people are being tested the case counts are lower. I know it's a tangent but it's a data backed example of how statistics can be manipulated/misleading.

https://covid19.sccgov.org/covid-cases-wastewater

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

Who said anything about the most powerful storm ever? The point is that storms of this power have not happened repeatedly within the post industrial world meaning a change in frequency cannot be established and therefore do not have a clear link to CO2.

Uh.. yeah. Go read that post again a few times until you realize that what I said agrees with what you said.

Quote (TugboatEng)

It's ok to be skeptical.

It's not just OK - skepticism is a good and necessary thing in the right context.

But stating unverifiable things as fact isn't skepticism.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Something to look forward to...

"It’s been a summer of norm-shattering extremes — with temperatures beyond human memory, catastrophic floods from Beijing to Vermont, choking wildfires and climate records tumbling on every continent.

Welcome to the rest of our lives.

To the scientists studying the planet’s warming, this season of heat deaths, burn-inducing sidewalks and coast-to-coast tropical cyclones is just a sign of the havoc to come as humans keep pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

The weather extremes are costly, deadly and probably coming faster and faster — but, perhaps even more worrying, they should not come as a surprise.

“There’s not a ‘weird’ acceleration happening” in the Earth’s climate, said Noah Diffenbaugh, a scientist at Stanford University. “There’s an expected acceleration happening.”"

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/01/summer-re...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I'm still trying to figure this out. Does a zoology degree qualify one as a climate scientist?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugBoatEng)

I'm still trying to figure this out. Does a zoology degree qualify one as a climate scientist?

Who are you referring to?

Obviously, this would be better than trusting Al Gore who has a BA degree in "government" though he originally wanted to major in English. In fact, his Wikipedia page says that he did very poorly in the math and science classes he took. I don't find that surprising at all. Not from the guy who claimed he invented the internet!

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

The author of dik's last article, Chelsea Harvey. I've heard "experts say" one to many times so I'm going to look into the background (LinkedIn) of every expert named.

Also, I'm trying to figure out what it takes to become a climate scientist. It sounds like a very lucrative career. bluegreedy

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
It's time for China to 'pay the piper', too.

"China's summer this year has seen both extreme heat and devastating floods.

And the flooding this time around has struck areas where such weather has been unheard of, with scientists - blaming climate change - warning that the worst is yet to come.

"I've never seen a flood here in my whole life," says 38-year-old Zhang Junhua, standing next to a vast patch of rice, now completely useless. "We just didn't expect it."

His family and friends are safe, he says, because they were given plenty of warning to get to higher ground, but everyone in his village now has some tough months ahead.

What's more, the devastation in north-east China's Heilongjiang Province has had a major impact on food supplies for the whole country."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-66616699

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

It's time for China to 'pay the piper', too.
You're assuming the Chinese government cares about the plight of the peasants?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (You're assuming the Chinese government cares about the plight of the peasants?)


or other governments...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

or other governments...

No, they don't care about other governments, either. Since China is the largest producer of pollutants and CO2, it really makes no sense for the US or other countries to damage our economies (and our ability to adapt to the effects of temperature changes), in order to cut emissions.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Sorry Tug and Bridge... on a per capita basis, the US has nearly twice the carbon footprint. Clean up your own backyard before you start to clean up the neighbours...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
...and China has coal. Is this a race to the bottom?

"California Gov. Gavin Newsom campaigned on shutting down Aliso Canyon, a gas storage facility that was the site of the largest methane leak in U.S. history.

Now, five years later, his administration is poised to inject even more gas into the sandstone chamber 8,500 feet beneath north Los Angeles in a bid to stave off energy price spikes and power shortages.

He’s also blessed extensions of gas and nuclear power plants that were scheduled to be closed. Keeping the lights on takes precedence over California’s clean energy goals, at least for now."

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/30/newsom-al...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

That record is scratched, dik. Plays the same thing over and over and over...

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Only the groove is getting deeper... pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
...another potential problem.

"
When torrential rainfall in August 2022 pushed the Pearl River in Mississippi to surge well beyond its banks, floodwaters spilled into the suburbs of Jackson and led an already-hobbled water treatment plant to fail.

It was the final stroke in what experts described as a yearslong issue in the making, which eventually left tens of thousands of residents in the city without clean drinking water for weeks.

What happened in Jackson, experts say, is a bellwether for what’s to come if America continues to kick the can down the road in addressing its aging and crumbling water infrastructure. The climate crisis threatens to make those issues even more pressing.

When sea levels rise, summers become hotter or heavy rains lead to more flooding, the country’s water infrastructure – largely built last century and only designed to last roughly 75 years – will be more strained than ever, threatening a system vital to human life.

MIAMI, FLORIDA - MAY 31: FEMA Administrator Deanne Criswell addresses the media from the National Hurricane Center on May 31, 2023 in Miami, Florida. With the official start of the Atlantic hurricane season on June 1, FEMA and NOAA officials spoke to the media and encouraged people to prepare for the upcoming hurricane season. (Photo by Joe Raedle/Getty Images)
In a record year of catastrophes, FEMA's disaster fund is slipping into the red before hurricane season even peaks
At the rate our climate is changing, America’s water infrastructure is not equipped to handle the challenges to come, said Erik Olson, the senior strategic director for health and food with the National Resources Defense Council.

“America’s water system relies on last century’s infrastructure that often can’t protect our health from hazardous contaminants,” Olson told CNN. “And our outdated system is completely unprepared for this century’s challenges of intense heat, drought and flooding.”"

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/02/us/water-infrastruc...

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So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

So it's just noise now?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Nope... maybe a deeper rut. ponder

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

The author of dik's last article, Chelsea Harvey

The one who wrote an article for politico?

Are you confused about what a journalist is, or did you conveniently choose to ask a question about zoology degrees while you ignored the masters in journalism possessed by this journalist you want to discredit??

In addition... do you not see the problem created for your position by continued attempts to discredit counterarguments with a fallacious 'Appeal to Credentials' argument?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I'd say a degree in zoology makes her way, way more qualified to talk about science than most journalist that try to do so.... LOL.

But, even a journalist that's knowledgeable in a field needs to rely on multiple backed sources for what they report. It's just sad that we have so few actual journalists these days.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I targeted the zoology degree because I thought it was more relevant to climatology than journalism.

I'm still trying to figure out what credentials are required to be considered a climate scientist or "expert". For example, to earn the title of "engineer" it's generally accepted that one must complete a degree in engineering from an ABET accredited school.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Quite often a degree indicates an academic approach to things... going beyond the field of study... It's not like some people stopping to think, and forgetting to re-start.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

I'm still trying to figure out what credentials are required to be considered a climate scientist or "expert"

So in your mind any journalist who writes an article about a climate related topic must meet your requirement for qualification as a ‘climate scientist’?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Have you ever read an article written by a journalist about something you are very knowledgeable in? Maybe an expert? How did you feel about that journalist after reading the article?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I have to agree here with Tug about journalists in general. Several times in my life, I have given interviews about projects, and have never seen one reported correctly in print.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

@tugboateng you should just come out and say that there is no one on earth who is, in your non expert opinion, qualified to comment on climate in either scientific literature or the press. Your continuous no true Scotsman approach to any reporting that’s posted is tired at this point.

I have no great level of faith in the average quality of current journalism. Want to make statements about how the quality of much journalism is not great, no problem. I won’t disagree.

But by implying that every journalist must meet your as yet unstated definition of expertise in every topic they might ever report on makes any journalism impossible. And you don’t just do it with journalists, you do it with highly qualified actual scientists who are actively engaged in relevant fields of study, which you yourself are not qualified to comment on per your own logic.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (SwinnyGG)

@tugboateng you should just come out and say that there is no one on earth who is,

If you talk about warming without recognizing enthalpy you're not an expert. That is all. It's not my fault no one on earth that speaks of global warming recognizes enthalpy.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

If you talk about warming without recognizing enthalpy you're not an expert.

I don't think you understand what enthalpy is

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
India, China and California on a race to the bottom?

"India has stepped up the use of coal to generate electricity in a bid to stop outages caused by lower hydroelectricity output, as an increase in renewables is struggling to keep pace with record power demand.

It is unusual for India’s electricity use to spike in August, when temperatures are lower due to the annual monsoon that runs between June and September. Demand typically peaks in May, when Indians crank up air-conditioners to beat the heat and industries operate without rain-related disruptions.

However, the driest August in more than a century has resulted in power generation surging to a record 162.7 billion kilowatt hours (units), an analysis by the Reuters news agency of data from the federal grid operator Grid India showed.

Coal’s share in power output rose to 66.7 percent in August – the highest for the month in six years, according to a Reuters analysis of government data. Lower rainfall led to the share of hydropower in overall output plunging to 14.8 percent, compared with 18.1 percent in the same period last year.

The government has repeatedly defended the use of coal, citing lower per capita emissions compared with richer nations and rising renewable energy output."

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2023/9/4/india-b...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

"Journalists" are welcome to publish facts so long as they do so ethically. Science that has been tested, published, and the testing independently recreated is fact. Quoted statements from an interview are fact. Publishing the education and experience of interviewees is ethical. Unproven theories are not fact, claiming otherwise is unethical. Failing to publish interviewees' education and experience is unethical. Making vague, misleading statements like "scientists say..." is unethical.

IMHO unethical journalists should be criminally charged with fraud, they intentionally deceive others for profit.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (IMHO unethical journalists should be criminally charged with fraud, they intentionally deceive others for profit.)


This is a bad idea, I think. They would spend the rest of their lives in court, due to special interest groups. It might be better to improve the education system so people are a little more discerning. Governments don't want a population that is educated.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

This article showed up today. Scientists are confounded by the sudden appearance of gaseous urea in the atmosphere. Not one mention of Diesel Exhaust Fluid which has been recently mandated for many marine diesel engines. It's also another terribly written article and I'm not really sure what it's conclusion was.

https://scitechdaily.com/profound-consequences-for...

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I think they are primarily interested in transport of gases around the world. The graph I posted of C14 is also relevant. The source of urea is organisms in the sea (having a wee?)

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (TugboatEng)

It's also another terribly written article and I'm not really sure what it's conclusion was.

.....are you serious? Did you read it, or follow the link and read the paper it references??

Quote (SciTech Daily Article on Atmospheric Urea, Second Paragraph)

The observations reveal an important but unaccounted-for source of reduced nitrogen and offer the first-ever observations of gaseous urea in the air.

The research, published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, also reveals that urea can be transported over long distances through the atmosphere to benefit other environments that may be nutrient-deficient.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
...another feature of climate change.

"Australia has been battling for years to rid itself of the invasive cane toad, but to no avail.

Native to South and Central America, the creature was first introduced into the state of Queensland in 1935 to control beetles that were destroying lucrative sugarcane crops.

It soon escaped into the wild and now, despite regular and sometimes brutal extermination campaigns, has expanded its territory across the northern coast and into the west.

The cane toad is one of more than 37,000 alien species introduced – deliberately or inadvertently – by humans into environments around the world, according to a landmark United Nations report released this week.

In its first assessment since 2019, the UN Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services (IPBES) said the number of invasive alien species was increasing at “unprecedented” rates, and that more than 3,500 of these were harmful.

“Invasive alien species are a major threat to biodiversity and can cause irreversible damage to nature, including local and global species extinctions, and also threaten human wellbeing,” Helen Roy, a professor at the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology and one of the assessment’s co-chairs, said in a statement."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/5/from-toads...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
A BPS Tug... that's a very interesting web site you posted... I've pinned it in my browser. I'm actually a little surprised that you linked it. As an example, there's a really interesting article on 'glass'.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (Says discerning dik, who's never seen a scare story he isn't afraid to repost.)


I'm not scared... just a casual observer... I'm too old and wobbly. My big concern is that the events of the last decade or two are a portent of much worse things to come.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

...another feature of climate change.

I don't see how that story relates to climate change. It's a story about the unintended consequences of human meddling in nature, without understanding the intricacies and delicate balances at play. Well, now that I wrote that, maybe it does have some application to the climate change debate...

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
This 'stuff' is all interconnected. There could be some unintended or unknown consequences related to climate change that will have to be addressed. The changes may have an impact on other 'stuff'.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (BridgeSmith)

I don't see how that story relates to climate change.

It doesn't. Not even a little. If anything, the fact that dik somehow thought it did is an excellent example about how intelligent people who go "all in" on climate change belief, can delude themselves into thinking that EVERYTHING is related to climate change.

No offense to Dik, I like and appreciate many of his posts. But, this last link was totally non-sequitur for this forum.

When we (humans) try to "fix" what we see as environmental problems with our ecosystems, we often end up doing more harm than good. There is a long history of Yellowstone park trying to "manage" the wolf and elk populations.

Killing off the wolves to protect the Elk populations (and livestock).
An explosion of the elk population resulted.
The elk populations were so large they had a detrimental effect on the rest of the park and it's ecosystem.
Efforts to curb the elk by killing off large numbers of them, which was a temporary solution at best.
Eventually decided to reintroduce the wolf populations.

Just all kinds of well intentioned actions that led to unintended consequences. This is one of the reasons why I am VERY skeptical of any "governmental" actions to "fix" the economy or the environment. Just look at history and you'll realize the government is TERRIBLE at this.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Koalas are cute, right? We shouldn't kill koalas. So we take them to a national park near me. There they kill all the gum trees, and die of starvation, or wander off into unsuitable cool climate rainforest, and die of starvation.

The headline photo is spot on https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-13/program-to-...

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

There is a long history of Yellowstone park trying to "manage" the wolf and elk populations.

Let's not forget the disastrous results of the forest/fire management that led to over half of the park going up in flames in 1988.

Quote:

Just all kinds of well intentioned actions that led to unintended consequences. This is one of the reasons why I am VERY skeptical of any "governmental" actions to "fix" the economy or the environment. Just look at history and you'll realize the government is TERRIBLE at this.

Bingo!

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Cane toads. That's a new one for climate change alarmists. But the UN and aljazeera...why read that bunkum?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (JoshPlumSE)

But, I prefer it when someone presents a rational justification why this event should reasonably be attributed to climate change.

They're working hard to cobble together this "science". The mission statement seems to be to establish a clear scientific link between climate change and extreme weather events. The same sort of scientific method we saw at work in climategate. Science following a predetermined conclusion, riding roughshod over data that doesn't support the preferred narrative.

These public statements linking every storm, fire, flood and hurricane to climate change are becoming more and more strident. Expect to see it intensify.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (That's a new one for climate change alarmists.)


They are just using them as examples of invasive species... with climate change, invasive species will likely happen. pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Sooo....aliens?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

with climate change, invasive species will likely happen

But is the spread of invasive species made worse by climate change, or does it happen just the same, regardless of the climate? Where's your evidence that climate change has any effect on the spread of invasive species?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Where did these species invade from? They came by ship, air, or land. So transportation. Is there more transportation due to climate change?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Remember, transportation causes climate change. Therefore, invasive species are a result of climate change.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
The inclusion of a new species in an area may be good and it may be not so good... it depends on if there are predators that can keep the population 'in check'. Often there aren't... look at all the cute little bunnies there are in Australia... pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
How's Australia doing?

"Until recently, acknowledging and tackling climate change proved a hugely contentious issue in Australia - famously playing a role in toppling three prime ministers in a decade.

The country is one of the world's biggest polluters per head of population, and it has failed to make any significant cuts to its core emissions despite signing up to global pledges.

But Australia is also a nation where the effects of climate change have become devastatingly obvious."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-65606208

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
In tons per capita... we beat you, but we have a larger country size... greater travel distance... and a climate that would bring tears to your eyes... You are ahead of the US, per capita...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

So? The BBC said no significant reduction. I posted data showing a significant reduction. Your data does not talk about reductions at all. Random shotgun blasts of irrelevant data is not an argument. Discerning dik strikes again.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Still on the positive side, greg... hardly a reduction. It appears for all the coal that China is using, the US is still out performing it... That was in 2022... maybe there is more recent data available.



https://www.statista.com/statistics/1275337/yoy-ch...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

20% reduction in 3 years. I know that's a bullshit number but it directly contradicts the BBC's claim. Yu can access renewable penetration month by month in the electricity generation game here https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/electricity/... 30% to 68% in 5.5 years

We are paying the price for that, electricity prices have increased by 50% so far, reliability is forecast to drop, and that's before we increase our population by 4% over the next 3 years.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
It's still on the positive side of the line... maybe next year will be different... I couldn't find data that shows a country's annual reduction... Maybe the rate of increase is slowing...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
What comes after a Category 5? With climate change, this may be on the horizon. I hope this does not reach land...

"Hurricane Lee is expected to continue strengthening Friday after quickly morphing into a powerful Category 5 storm that is now packing destructive maximum sustained winds of 165 mph as it spins hundreds of miles east of the Caribbean, the National Hurricane Center said in its 5 a.m. ET advisory.

The hurricane was located about 630 miles east of the northern Leeward Islands, the hurricane center said Friday in the 5 a.m. update.

“Additional strengthening is forecast today. Fluctuations in intensity are likely over the next few days, but Lee is expected to remain a major hurricane through early next week,” forecasters wrote in the update.

Lee, which was a Category 1 storm Thursday, has been intensifying with exceptional speed in warm ocean waters, doubling its wind speeds in just a day."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/08/weather/hurricane-l...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

"It's still on the positive side of the line... maybe next year will be different... I couldn't find data that shows a country's annual reduction... Maybe the rate of increase is slowing..."

How to say you don't understand a graph without saying you don't understand a graph.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I understand the graph... it's pretty easy... simple mimes can do that sort of thing. pipe

Japan's output of carbon is -ve, ie. they are decreasing. Australia's is on the positive side, so they are increasing their carbon, albeit, not as much as the US or China. Australia is running on par with Russia... This data is a year old, and maybe things have changed...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Somebody thinking this could get serious...

"Tackling climate change needs a rapid transformation of the way our world works, travels, eats and uses energy, according to an important UN review.

This is the first "global stocktake" to examine the efforts of countries to reduce planet-warming emissions since the Paris agreement was signed in 2015.

While progress has been made, efforts now need to be massively scaled up.

The report calls for "radical decarbonisation" with a fast phase out of fossil fuels without carbon capture.

Burning fossil fuels like oil, gas and coal to generate electricity emits carbon dioxide, which is the main driver of climate change. Carbon capture in industrial processes and power stations stops most of the CO2 produced from being released, and either reuses it or stores it underground.

Renewable energy also needs significant expansion while deforestation needs to be halted and reversed by 2030.

The stocktake report will be considered by political leaders and will be central to global climate talks in Dubai later this year.

Over the course of the past two years, the UN has set out to review the promises made by countries who signed the Paris agreement in 2015. At the meeting eight years ago, countries agreed to keep the amount of warming since the industrial revolution well below 2C and make efforts to keep it under 1.5C.

The report examines their efforts to cut carbon, to adapt to climate change and how they have mobilised finance and technology to help poorer nations deal with the problem."

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-66753...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

You asked what comes after Category 5. Category 4, of course.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Not before... Hokie

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Hurricanes don't dissipate immediately. Technically, a category 4 does come after a cat 5 as the hurricane is downgraded.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I was thinking of them stepping up a bit, in future... I guess the Cat 5 is for 157mph and higher (it's open ended), so it covers everything... until they 'define' a Cat 6... Tug and Hokie are correct... if it slows down it becomes a Cat 4.

"There is no such thing as a Category 6 hurricane. When Hurricane Dorian hit the Bahamas in September 2019, it had maximum wind speeds of 185 mph. That’s a wind speed of about where hurricane scientist Jeff Masters says a Category 6 should start, but the Saffir-Simpson scale only goes up to 5.

Some people have been talking about creating a Category 6 hurricane designation, with the climate crisis making catastrophic storms more common and each level on the scale meant to approximate the increasing wind damage, but a Category 5 already means near total destruction. So while there is a measurement difference between 157 mph winds and 200 mph winds, there may not be much practical difference in terms of destructive force between a Category 5 hurricane and what might be labeled as a Category 6 hurricane."

The problem with hurricane categories
There is a key problem with how hurricane categories are measured: The Saffir-Simpson scale only takes into account a storm’s maximum sustained windspeed, and disregards other threats, like expected rainfall or storm surge. Even a Category 1 hurricane or a tropical storm can bring serious damage and risk to life and limb, but people in their path may underestimate the danger they pose because of how they’re categorized. An alternative to the Saffir-Simpson Scale is AccuWeather’s “RealImpact Scale,” which takes other metrics besides wind speed into account.


They could have added 'Duration'... but likely reflected in four items considered...





-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Climate change is starting to get a little pricey... It may be time to pay the piper... pipe

"
It’s been a record-smashing year for the most expensive weather and climate disasters in the United States this year after severe storms, the deadly Maui wildfire and Hurricane Idalia tipped the scales last month.

With four months still left in the year, the US has been hit with 23 disasters that each cost at least $1 billion, according to new data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, surpassing the previous annual record of 22 events in 2020."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/11/us/billion-dollar-w...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

We're defining the Maui Wildfire as "climate related"? Why is that? Because there were winds that knocked down a power line? I suppose categorizing EVERYTING as climate related really makes the numbers go up. Huh? LOL

I'm not trying to be harsh, just pointing out an obvious reality of comparing costs now to in the past. You need to have a valid criteria that is the same going backwards and forwards for any comparison to be valid.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of "climate related" disasters has gone up. We've got more population, we've got more infrastructure. We've got inflation and the cost of repairing that infrastructure is higher than it's ever been.... even if the damage were exactly the same as it was last year or the year before.

So, 23 disasters that are worth more than a billions. Let's say they all cost us $10 billion dollars.... So, 230 billion for the year. How much does the federal government shell out of to repair that damage. A lot of that is covered by private individuals, insurance companies, the states. So, let's just say that only $100 billion would be covered by the Federal government. Just wild ass guesses on my part. But, I'm trying to make that number as high as is reasonable to expect.

Now, let's compare that to how much have we SPENT on green energy programs this year. Wasn't the Inflation Reduction act alone worth something like a trillion dollars?! I understand that this was passed last year. But, let's just say that the $780 billion of that was geared towards the climate. We've have to have disasters like this (or worse) every year for 8 years in a row before the government spending that kind of money to PREVENT these disasters would be worthwhile.

But, the real deciding factor is to ask ourselves how much of that money spent by the government can we say actually did anything to prevent such disasters in the future? I'd personally say it's something close to zero dollars.

The reality is that it would be much more efficient (from an economics point of view) to spend money on rebuilding, relocation, and adapting to a changing climate than it would be to try to change the global climate by whatever the Inflation Reduction Act is actually doing.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Sorry Josh... it's not just the Maui fire... the article notes, " the US has been hit with 23 disasters that each cost at least $1 billion." The year is not over, and who knows what next year will bring. There is a price to pay for not doing anything, it would seem.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

Sorry Josh... it's not just the Maui fire... the article notes, " the US has been hit with 23 disasters that each cost at least $1 billion." The year is not over, and who knows what next year will bring. There is a price to pay for not doing anything, it would seem.

Absolutely, there is a price to pay for doing nothing. I think that's kind of my point, though you missed it! What is the most EFFICIENT way to spend our money. Is it to throw it away on policies that are not at all effective in reducing the cost of climate change. Or, should it be spent in ways that will actually help people.

The Maui fire (like the Paradise, CA fire before it) could have been prevented if we had merely funded for the upgrading of power lines in these areas. Better yet, we could have moved them underground.... Either way would have prevented the downed lines lighting the fires in the first place. That would be a lot cheaper than trying to change the GLOBAL atmospheric conditions with changes to our LOCAL energy consumption.

We can blame the electric utility that owned those lines, of course. That's reasonable. Though once the fire is lit, there is little we could do to prevent the damage when the winds are blowing that hard. That would be a much more efficient way to spend our money than searching for unicorn farts or some other magical solution to save us from climate change.

Regardless, we can probably find way cheaper ways to fix or prevent any of those disasters in the future than by flushing money down the toilet with the Inflation Reduction creation Act.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

dik -

Economics doesn't seem to be your thing. If you read the rest of my thread (rather than just the first 2 sentences) you'll see that I clearly realized it was 23 separate disasters each with a estimated cost above a billion dollars.

I suggested using an average of $10 Billion dollar cost for each of the disasters which is more than it was listed in that article (which was something like $57 Billion). So, I exaggerated the cost by a factor of more than 4! So, I think that probably covers us for the last 3.5 months of the year. LOL

The main point of my response is how do we EFFICIENTLY spend the money we have to deal with climate change. The way I see it, we've got a few options:

a) Do we throw trillions and trillions of dollars at "magical" programs that just don't add up (like the Inflation Creation Act)? That only seek to make us feel better about being "green" and score political points with idiots. The problem with this is it's very, VERY expensive, doesn't come close to solving the GLOBAL problems that are causing climate change, and will also completely tank our economy at the same time.... Inflation, energy shortages and such.

b) Do we invest in proven technologies like replacing coal plants with nuclear or gas turbines and such? Maybe mandating a move away from 6 and 8 cylinder vehicles in favor of hybrid cars and trucks. This will not SOLVE the overall problem, but would still be moving us in the right direction without killing our economy.

c) Do we ignore the cause of climate change and merely invest in "adaptation" measures? Moving away from the areas that will be most affected. Building better in the areas that are affected. Maybe by moving power lines underground or upgrading ones that we can't move.

d) A combination of all three? Maybe with less of an emphasis on the unicorn farts we're currently spending so much money on.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

the US has been hit with 23 disasters that each cost at least $1 billion.

Honest question: In your opinion, what percentage of that $57 billion that was spent on disaster relief or mitigation in all forms needed to be spent because of the direct results of climate change?

Or put differently, if the climate was operating at the steady state 1970 (or whatever year you want to choose) version of itself, without any other societal, economic, or infrastructure changes, how much of that $57 billion would have been spent anyway?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I suspect that it's just a beginning, Swinny...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I think JoshPlumSE hit on the real reason for natural disasters getting more expensive right at the beginning - more stuff built in disaster-prone areas, that's also more expensive to fix or replace (Thank you Biden for the massive inflation that made all of this possible)

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Its time to watch your local weather broadcast, and see it is high and low pressure area's that is the cause of this extreme weather we are all having.
The real science that is denied.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

I suspect that it's just a beginning, Swinny...

So your answer is 100% then?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (enginesrus)

Its time to watch your local weather broadcast, and see it is high and low pressure area's that is the cause of this extreme weather we are all having.
The real science that is denied.

Stop it. Your sources are the worst information posted in this thread. And that's an achievement.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

it'll be interesting to see how the next election in Canada shapes out ... one side for Carbon taxes, one side against.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
It will be interesting... and sad...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Not a fan of democracy?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Sorry guy, and not to get political... Turdeau is a bad example. To think either of us live in a democracy is a myth (farse) propagated by politicans. Take a gander at the definition of Oligarchy.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
A feature of AGW (I have to get used to that term) elsewhere... A consequence of Western excesses... There could be thousands of deaths.

"The extent of the devastating damage is still being surveyed after widespread flooding and mudslides caused by torrential rain in Libya.

The worst-affected place is the port of Derna, much of which is under water after two dams and four bridges collapsed.

The storm system that brought severe flooding to Libya began more than a week ago as Storm Daniel over Greece.

Having brought record amounts of rain over a few days and widespread flooding to parts of eastern Greece, it slowly moved south over the Mediterranean.

With sea temperatures in the eastern Mediterranean above normal for the time of year, the storm system regained strength and added moisture before barrelling into the Libyan coast. It briefly became what meteorologists term a “medicane”

Impacts include rough seas, wind gusts reportedly of over 50mph and over a years worth of rain for some.

In the 24 hours between 08:00 Sunday and 08:00 Monday, Omar Al-Mukhtar University in Bayda recorded 414mm of rain, and the north-eastern town of Marawa received 240mm.

To put that in perspective, nearby Benghazi has an annual average of 270mm."

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-africa-6669104...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Umm, it's normal for Benghazi to get its annual rainfall within a few days.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

it'll be interesting to see how the next election in Canada shapes out ... one side for Carbon taxes, one side against.

Well, that's not the election that's most interesting. If we take a look at Europe it's the election once the COST to the public becomes apparent that becomes the most interesting one. Look at what happened in Denmark. The FARMERS basically took over the government. A political movement that didn't even exist in 2018 and which no one thought would have any power.... Well, as soon as the nation realized what the "green" initiatives were doing to their standard of living, their industries and their way of life there was a major revolt against it.

That's exactly what I expect to happen in Canada. Not in the next election, but maybe 5 to 10 years from now. And, when the pendulum swings, it's going to swing HARD.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
...killing thousands of people, too, I suspect.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

It's also normal for infrastructure to fail in Africa.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

You should applaud "killing thousands of people", as that will help to decrease AGW.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Another hiccup that may be in the wind (for places other than Florida)...

"The well-documented exodus of big-name property insurers from Florida and other geographic areas subject to the onslaught of severe weather events now exacerbated by human-induced climate change has left many in the state with limited recourse to recover their losses after a hurricane hits. To avoid the fate of those insurers that have simply liquidated their assets through bankruptcy, these companies have made the logical business decision that the cost of insuring homes and businesses located in in areas most likely to sustain environmental damage is no longer commensurate with the risk. Consequently, many Floridians have either been priced out of the insurance market or compelled to seek insurance through Citizens Property Insurance Corp, a state-backed entity whose home insurance rolls jumped to a record two million policies in 2023."

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/9/11/2190745...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (ou should applaud "killing thousands of people", as that will help to decrease AGW.)


It's a start... maybe there will be a much greater reduction in the carbon footprint. pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

No, that'll raise the per capita carbon emissions. Everyone needs to have 8 kids to do their part.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

It's a start...

So, dik, millions then? Billions?

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

@Josh ... this is "the next election". Trudeau brought in many of the carbon taxes (and hand-outs), and is planning to ramp things up. The other side is "revolting" and giving people an option. Dik will (putting words into his mouth) say it is "death or taxes" and it could be a case of OPM (Other People's Mortality).

Personally I think climate is way too complicated for us to appreciate, and to have confidence in pronouncements of either impending doom or required salvation.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)

Quote (Trudeau brought in many of the carbon taxes (and hand-outs), and is planning to ramp things up.)


That's Turdeau ...and politically promoting pipelines.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

well it's best for politicians to have feet in both camps ... it saves them from putting their foot (feet?) in their mouth ...

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Still waiting on an answer to this question.

Quote (dik)

the US has been hit with 23 disasters that each cost at least $1 billion.

Honest question: In your opinion, what percentage of that $57 billion that was spent on disaster relief or mitigation in all forms needed to be spent because of the direct results of climate change?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
No idea Swinny... but judging from the artical:

"With four months still left in the year, the US has been hit with 23 disasters that each cost at least $1 billion, according to new data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, surpassing the previous annual record of 22 events in 2020.",

I would suggest the "...disaster relief or mitigation in all forms..." was on top of that expense. It adds up quickly when you do nothing to mitigate it.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Is their figure inflation adjusted? Prices are up 15-25% from last year and that more than explains the figure without even considering climate change.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
What, me worry? (with apologies to Alfred)...

"Human actions have pushed the world into the danger zone on several key indicators of planetary health, threatening to trigger dramatic changes in conditions on Earth, according to a new analysis from 29 scientists in eight countries.

The scientists analyzed nine interlinked “planetary boundaries,” which they define as thresholds the world needs to stay within to ensure a stable, livable planet. These include climate change, biodiversity, freshwater and land use, and the impact of synthetic chemicals and aerosols.

Human activities have breached safe levels for six of these boundaries and are pushing the world outside a “safe operating space” for humanity, according to the report, published on Wednesday in the journal Science Advances."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/13/world/planetary-bou...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

according to a new analysis from 29 scientists in eight countries.

In what world does this add credibility to a scientific statement? Have we determined what qualifies one to be a climate scientist yet? Can you explain your latest comments that indicate spite for Western culture and your support for a mass die-off? Wil you answer SwinnyGG's question?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

No idea Swinny...

So no idea and no opinion, but still cause for alarm?

And that makes sense/seems like a rational position to you?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote (dik)

What, me worry? (with apologies to Alfred)...

Good one!!

rofl

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
It may be a start...

"Rescue operations after a disaster are always difficult. But in a country with rival administrations, a decade of fighting and chronic instability, those operations are a logistical “nightmare”, says Tomasso Della Longa, a spokesperson from the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (IFRC).

“Libya one week ago was already complicated,” he says. And the floods have destroyed roads, communication and infrastructure to make an already complicated situation even more complicated.

Multiple reports have emerged of local Libyans criticising the international response. While he understands, he stresses the floods in Libya were "truly unbelievable” - and therefore so difficult to respond to.

“We use these words all the time, but I can tell you this time it’s unbelievable,” Della Longa stresses. Entire neighbourhoods of the city, and villages in other parts of the country were “wiped out” - words he does not use lightly, he says."

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-africa-6681506...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
Methane and it's effect on AGW...

"Methane is responsible for around 30% of the rise in global temperatures since the industrial revolution, and rapid and sustained reductions in methane emissions are key to limit near-term warming and improve air quality.

Two key characteristics determine the impact of different greenhouse gases on the climate: the length of time they remain in the atmosphere and their ability to absorb energy. Methane has a much shorter atmospheric lifetime than carbon dioxide (CO2) – around 12 years compared with centuries – but absorbs much more energy while it exists in the atmosphere.

Methane also affects air quality because it can lead to ground level (tropospheric) ozone, a dangerous air pollutant. Methane leaks can also pose explosion hazards."

https://www.iea.org/reports/global-methane-tracker...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

(OP)
I wonder where this will take us? What stops them from simply declaring bankruptcy?

"The US state of California has sued five oil giants for their alleged role in downplaying the risk posed by fossil fuels while causing tens of billions of dollars in damage, The New York Times has reported.

The lawsuit, filed on Friday in the superior court of San Francisco, targeted Exxon Mobil, Shell, BP, ConocoPhillips and Chevron.

It is the most significant lawsuit to put the spotlight on the fossil fuel industry and demand the creation of a fund to compensate for future damages caused by climate-related disasters.

It follows numerous other cases brought by US cities, counties and states against fossil fuel interests over the impact of climate change, as well as alleged disinformation campaigns spanning decades."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/16/californi...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I suppose they could all withdraw their products from the market, to cease causing further harm. /sarc

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

Methane is responsible for around 30% of the rise in global temperatures since the industrial revolution, and rapid and sustained reductions in methane emissions are key to limit near-term warming and improve air quality.

Yet govts and academics worldwide keep pushing its use as an alternative fuel while having a lower standard for efficiency.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Quote:

I suppose they could all withdraw their products from the market, to cease causing further harm. /sarc

Why the sarcasm? I think that's a great idea, assuming they just announce that due to the lawsuit, they'll quit selling their product in California. How many seconds do you think it would take for the flood of angry phone calls to the governor's office to get the Commiefornia AG to drop the lawsuit, and get fired, anyway?

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

"Commiefornia". I'll keep that one, BridgeSmith, if you don't mind.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

You've never heard Cali referred to that way, hokie? There's also Crazyfornia, and my favorite - the land of fruits and nuts.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Yea, 'land of fruits and nuts' is my go to. That state could be a good place to live, but for all the fruits and nuts.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

BridgeSmith, agreed, they should embargo all hydrocarbon products, all products made from hydrocarbons and all hydrocarbon generated electricity from entering Califruitopia.

Seriously, it is just a large scale grift. An excuse to peel off millions or billions of dollars from essential industry, enrich the lawyers and politicians and do nothing for the general population. Pure and simple.

EDIT: The sarcasm was meant to apply to the " further harm".

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Those are all older colloquialisms, younger generations call it the PRC (People's Republic of California).

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

I think it would be wise, and humane, of us to avoid the 'haha fruits' description of California. Come on guys.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

There is nothing wise or humane that comes out of the California government. Come on.

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

Well, they're proudly touting that 10% of the legislators are LGBTQ+, and they have Camp Fruit Loop, so maybe describing California as 'fruity' is not too much of a stretch. Of course, I was referring to the oranges, tomatoes, and almonds that are grown there.smile

RE: Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XI

My favorite are "The People's Republic of California" and the "left coast".

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