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Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review
17

Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

(OP)
This was the inflection point:

Link

Commentary:

Link

Under Review:

Link

Engineers Canada:

Link

I don't understand the philosophy. If the current ritual is not inclusive enough, what ritual would be?

It is a ring intended to be worn on a hand. For those without hands should they see themselves as excluded?

These are not rhetorical questions. I'd like to understand.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

Personally I think they should get rid of the whole thing it's some weird shit

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

2
To be a really good engineer, one must have the grounding in science (typically physics and chemistry, but also biology) and mathematics. One must also have reasonably good research skills - who remembers ALL the equations for every task? And lastly, one must have an understanding and appreciation for art and literature - as well as having the vision and creativity of the artist as part of one's psyche.

With this in mind, the Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer is just that: a performance of a specific form of art (call it a "play", for want of a better term) that includes a number of literary references. I wonder how many new engineers (or educators) take everything they see/hear/read at face value - as a LITERAL statement? It isn't meant to be, of course. This is not really all that different from a wedding ceremony (in any religion or judicial setting), or the induction of a new president (or royal), or even the process of obtaining a loan. The difference with the engineering ritual is the archaic nature of the language - but almost all poetry has archaic elements to some extent.

As an engineer (with the ring), I try to uphold the ideals of engineering: the betterment of life for my fellow passengers on this planet, undertaken in an ethical and honest approach to the best of my ability.

Converting energy to motion for more than half a century

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

On a scale of zero to weird, the iron ring ceremony was alot more weird and cultish than a presidential induction, a wedding ceremony, or the process of obtaining a chain.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

I read some excerpts from the ceremony that certainly seemed religious in nature...doesn't surprise me people would bring up inclusivity in that case.
Reading the Engineers Canada link it seems like a straight up cult if they're banning non-engineers from attending (no friends and family, for what purpose exactly???) and discouraging people from talking about the ceremony.

Perhaps the ceremony is in need of an serious overhaul...a steel ring seems kinda cool to have though.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

(OP)
A bit wild people think a ritual that runs for less than an hour in one's life and maybe mentions the word "God" a couple times constitutes a "cult".

Ritual is fundamental to human-ness. And it is normal if not necessary for a ritual to be wrapped in mystery.

A steel ring with no meaning is just a status symbol. If there is need to reform the ring, it is to reinforce the initial intent of the ring and not to undermine it.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

Quote (SAITAETGrad)

A bit wild people think a ritual that runs for less than an hour in one's life and maybe mentions the word "God" a couple times constitutes a "cult".
I think you've merged my two points into one so I'll clarify.

My first sentence about the religious tones is not the reason why I say I called it cultish. It is however definitely not inclusive to individuals of all religions, and that should be fairly apparent to all I hope.
My second point about preventing people from attending and discouraging discussion about the ceremony however is certainly cultish in my opinion. I've never been stopped from attending a church ceremony or a person's graduation, so I don't concede that it is normal or necessary for them to be wrapped in mystery to such a degree. Bringing up rituals as fundamental to human nature is neat and all but I never advocated for abolishing the ritual.

I'm also not 100% sure where your comment about undermining the intent of the ceremony comes from but the phrase "serious overhaul" was perhaps a bit too dramatic on my part, my intention is more along the lines of an update to the modern age in terms of process rather than some sort of corruption of its ideals.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

I would assume its less about secrecy than minimizing outside influences. If you can't invite outsiders then you dont have to feel bad about not inviting outsiders nor is the ceremony awkward bc you did. If asked about the ring, telling others that its a profession/frat is normal whereas describing the ceremony might get you teased.

As to the word "God," something the pc crowd needs to understand is that word is all-encompassing in the English language, not specific to Christianity. Moreover ~85% of the world identifies as religious so the nonsecular mention in serious matters is generally appreciated.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

(OP)
You are allowed guests who are not members.

Ultimately, no such ceremony can be fully inclusive in the eyes of some.

As I said initially, it is a ring to be worn on a hand. If you have no hands to wear a ring, you can easily interpret the idea of a ring as non-inclusionary if you so choose.

The goal of those asking for changes is not reform. It is to re-purpose to their ideology or outright destruction and replacement.

Link

I am not a religious person. But "God" does have meaning in that there are things outside of ourselves. Those who participate should be encouraged to consider not only their fellow engineers but all of humanity and creation through the universe past, present and future. The use of the word "God" is as good of a word as any. Of course the proponents for change want to put their own secular religion front and center and make what is really a non-religious ceremony a religious ceremony to their real, actual cult.

IR_Stuff has it right. Some druidic stylized nonsense has long been short-hand used for manufacturing a ritual since at least the 17th century. Rudyard Kipling designed and wrote the ritual as he was on the staff of the University of Toronto at the time. The fact it is connected with Kipling is maybe the biggest reason it is being attacked.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

3
I, too, am an outsider from the lower 48, albeit an engineer.

I would state that this has ritualistic rather than cultish overtones. Cults are driven by a personality that seeks to isolate, control conduct and impugn contrary views. I'd assert that the current proponents of change are much closer to acting cultish than those currently aligned with the Iron Ring ceremony. And I like this kind of commissioning ceremony. It elevates the importance of this vocation as an avocation, a calling to service to mankind; a practical practitioner of science.

The underpinning of Western culture is under attack. You might say that its underpinning is an amalgamation of thought from Jerusalem, Athens and Rome. It has been referred to as the Judeo-Christian worldview.

The Judeo-Christian worldview stands in stark contrast to the diversity, equity and inclusion worldview. Our founders believed in the equality of opportunity rather than the equality of outcome (Equity). This current group is not at all interested in the Inclusion of any sort of god in their imposition of Diversity.

Interestingly, if society excludes a Creator from the source of their endowments of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, all that remains is raw government power to "giveth and taketh away" life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, what had been the only game in town for the previously recorded history and what the founders had escaped from in Europe and Britain. Tyrants are capturing centers of government and control as we speak and imposing their cultish will as we give the silent assent, "thy will be done."

The frog is comfortably in the pot and the flame is on high.

Skip,

glassesJust traded in my OLD subtlety...
for a NUance!tongue

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

A current example of perverted woke equity (equal outcomes) in action from the state of Virginia.

At least 17 school administrations have been identified withholding Merit Award notifications from students who they deem to have "privileged status", mostly Asian students, thus materially negatively affecting their college admission process.

This is a groupthink conspiracy! It may be metastasizing in a town near you.

This takes chutzpah!

The mediocrity of woke aristocracy!

Skip,

glassesJust traded in my OLD subtlety...
for a NUance!tongue

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

It's a ceremony, steeped in tradition... if this goes ahead, I'm waiting for the next iteration... wonder what it will include or exclude.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

Well you learn something new every day here on E-T.

What a strange thing to persist into the 21st Century.

Especially the first rule of the ceremony is don't talk about the Ceremony....

I've got a Canadian Engineer friend so I'll have a peek at this hand next time I see him.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

Tau Beta Pi (The Engineering Honor Society) has a secret ceremony, and only initiated members and initiate candidates may attend. I attended my initiation and promptly forgot everything about it. Nine years later, I attended another TBP initiation, and it was all brand new to me. About twenty years later, I attended another TBP initiation. Guess what? All seemed brand new again. Don't put too much stock in people remembering what they see and hear at a club initiation.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

2
I think it's important for us to remember that this "steeped in history" ritual is less than a century old. Let's cool our jets a wee bit about the underpinnings of our society being under attack here. If my iron ring and the ceremony of committing myself to Rudyard Kipling's ideals are all that's holding up our society, then goodness we have bigger problems.

The original purpose of the iron ring ceremony was to provide new engineers with a humbling experience and a worn reminder of the role that we play in providing society with a safe environment. If the ceremony excludes new graduates, or if it contains rituals and language that give some graduates a negative reaction, then our next generation of engineers may miss the important message that the ritual was created to communicate.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

Quote (steeped in history)


maybe 'steeped in tradition'... it's remained constant, from its inception, until recently, maybe. It's still part of the problem of trying to obliterate history and make way for the new... I'm an old dinosaur...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

Quote:

committing myself to Rudyard Kipling's ideals

Given that Kipling was a white supremacist and staunch colonialist, that could be an issue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden. Now, obviously, Kipling didn't espouse much of that in Hymn of Breaking Strain https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_strain..., but in that Hymn is the notion of "We hold all Earth to plunder— All Time and Space as well— " which is troubling in the times of global warming.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

I'm ashamed to admit that the first I heard of Kipling's less than savoury ideals was in the Engineers Canada critique (which I read a few weeks ago). That quote you show IRstuff is quite alarming to read in light of Canada's history or cultural genocide towards indigenous people.

In short, I see no harm in the principle of tweaking the ceremony to make it appeal to the broad audience of new engineers. The fundamental goal of imparting a sense of responsibility and community on engineers should not be lost.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

True, but Kipling was still a product of his times and a long history of "betterment" of indigenous peoples dating all the way back to the forced religious conversion of natives by the conquistadors and their attendant priests. And certainly, given his tenure in the US, the notion of Manifest Destiny further influencing Kipling would not be surprising.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

We keep referring to it in the discussion, but not making explicit what we're talking about. So...

Exhibit A:




Note:
This print drops the last line, which went:
Upon Honour and Cold Iron, God helping me, these things I purpose to abide.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

Exhibit B:

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

IMO the biggest flaw is the stultified text, especially the first oath in Exhibit A.
I'm not sure I could keep a straight face if I had to deliver that speech to a crowd.

I would rather adapt the text of the province's code of ethics and make that into an meaningful oath, rather than the instruction manual that it tends to be nowadays. One can inspire respect and duty without invoking either God or other deity, and yet be just as meaningful to people of faith who feel that bond.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

For clarity there is much more to the Iron Ring ceremony than just those four paragraphs

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

(OP)

Quote (geotechguy1)

For clarity there is much more to the Iron Ring ceremony than just those four paragraphs

Not really...the complaints stem from the fact it was designed by Christian white men far more than the content.

Of course those attacking the ritual are exactly what they accuse Kipling thereof. They feel they are morally superior and see themselves as building a "better world" through their intolerance. I don't see a moral improvement. It is at best a sideward substitution.

Quote (Sparweb)

One can inspire respect and duty without invoking either God or other deity, and yet be just as meaningful to people of faith who feel that bond.

Interesting take. So those of faith can make a substitution so that those who do not have any faith can be saved from the indignity of considering anything outside themselves. Why is that everything in the world must conform to that world view when it is so intolerant of any consideration of any other world view?

Again - those w/o hands. How do you guys square that issue? Or do you follow your thought process to the ultimate conclusion that no possible ritual would meet your criteria?

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

Quote:

Why is that everything in the world must conform to that world view when it is so intolerant of any consideration of any other world view?

The issue is why a secular engineering organization must force non-Christians and non-believers to swear a Christian oath. Who is imposing their world view on whom?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

4
(OP)

Quote (IRstuff)

The issue is why a secular engineering organization must force non-Christians and non-believers to swear a Christian oath. Who is imposing their world view on whom?

A few things:

1. Nobody is forced to participate. The Iron Ring has nothing to do with the regulated practice of engineering in Canada. Many people wear the Iron Ring who have never been registered as an engineer and many people who are registered as an engineer have never done the oath.

2. All that is referenced to is a "Maker" in the oath. There is no specific religion. If you believe the "Maker" is mathematics or randomization or the collected matter of the universe or Vishnu or all of humanity past, present or future - it matters not. The claim that it is a "Christian Oath" is false. The actual issue appears to be that the ritual was developed by people prescribed by the mob to be Christians and therefore the ritual is tainted by their wrong-think.

3. Regardless if you think the origin of the ritual is tainted or not - the reality is any mob imposed revision is itself going to be tainted by the sins of today. Again, it is a parallel move. You are simply replacing one taint with another.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

We seem to be on a path of escalation.

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

I think you are correct, Sparweb... and who knows what the next iteration will be... over the years, I've had a few people comment about not wearing an iron ring... I've mentioned that I'm an engineer and they have observed no iron ring. It's almost that they expect engineers to wear one.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Canadian Iron Ring Ceremony Under Review

I know the ring and ceremony as being from an era (1920's) where many people were falsely claiming to be engineers. So a lot of buildings and structures collapsing. The ring showed you are bonafide.
When I graduated we were all really proud to get our iron rings.

After 29 years, I can't say I agree with the ceremony, in that it cloaks engineers in failure, makes us the fall guys when you have anyone that can call themselves an "engineering manager" ordering EIT's and other engineers to skimp on the design. I dislike the chant about being a humble failure when it should be about strength and success and giving the bird to the man pushing engineers to create bad designs. I've worked for many laymen, technologists etc as "engineering managers" where it's a constant battle to roll out something safe and as usual, the engineer is the responsible member. As I keep saying 'engineers have all of the responsibility yet none of the authority'. This needs to change.

I don't wear the ring when using power tools, it can get snagged. The old rings were stamped but new ones CNC machined which seem not as elegant looking.

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