Because of my exposure to 'Bad Engineering' when I first started, I do not wear an iron ring.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

The US started up something similar. No secret cult meetings, though (just looked that up - 'Corporation of the Seven Wardens' - whiskey tango foxtrot?), but we did get a ring to wear. Lost mine beneath the seat of my car and never could get it out. Went to the scrap heap to be melted down and recycled...

Canadians, eh?

Cheers

Greg Locock


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C eh, N eh, D eh... yup...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

phamENG - there's a joke that the biggest spike in ordering replacement rings is the day after the ceremony because usually there is a big party at a pub after and half the people lose them anyway.

And then again 5 and 10 years later as grads adapt to being desk-bound and not living on ramen noodles and cheerios and their fingers pad out a bit

long overdue. and good reason so

by the time 4th year students do the ceremony, they are so used to going through the motions, they just go through the motions again, to get the heck out of there with as least hassle as possible.

engineering school teaches one how to get things done expediently.

I cant remember all the particulars about the ceremony, but do remember a couple moments where i felt a bit bad for the girls. but we all just overlooked those bits in an effort to get on with things. Plus by that point, those girls were battle hardened, having dealt with so much crap along the way.

Yeeeeaaaaaa...just googled the Canadian ceremony and my first thought was - pretty weird, apparently Canadians arent as vanilla as I thought.

IIRC stateside I was just handed my stainless ring when I received my senior capstone project materials/grade back, nothing fancy, was optional and cost ~$10.

Those people who do not like Rudyard Kipling should read George Orwell's article on him. There is a book out there entitled The Decline of the English Murder, which is a collection of George Orwell essays. I recommend it highly.

--
JHG

It has been almost 35 years since I started my engineering life and I had never heard of this.

I had also never heard of the US counterpart, the Order of the Engineer, until last year.

I need to crawl out of my cave more often. LOL. Or these guys need to do more marketing.

I don't remember mine ...

drawoh... thanks for the 'heads up'

https://www.orwell.ru/library/reviews/kipling/engl...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

dik,
The .ru top domain doesn't come through for me (for good reason).

Another search come up with :

Quote (Orwell)

[In Anglo-Indian families,] [he] was a sort of household god with whom one grew up and whom one took for granted whether one liked him or whether one did not. […] For my own part I worshiped Kipling at thirteen, loathed him at seventeen, enjoyed him at twenty, despised him at twenty-five, and now again rather admire him. George Orwell’s obituary for Rudyard Kipling, New English Weekly, 1936

As for the iron ring ceremony, I didn't bother, and boy did I miss out on something really strange.
How does anyone keep a straight face doing that??

Quote (The .ru top domain doesn't come through for me (for good reason).)

Same here... it did when I first clicked it... dunno...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

I just read the man who would be king. I only knew Kipling's children's stories. I was in for a surprise. However, it is not the only work I have read from that time and I appreciate the perspective it gives me on how things have changed for the better.

Sparweb,

You are a technologist, right? We have diplomas, not degrees. I did not do the iron ring ceremony either.

Kipling did speak to the idea of people (men) taking responsibility for stuff.

McAndrew’s Hymn

--
JHG

Responsibility is also at the heart of Kipling's "White Man's Burden"

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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Stalin believed the Holomodor was justified because he was building a better world. He was simply the bureaucrat willing to make the tough decisions by his reasoning.

Just looking at the 20th century alone, there are many similar examples.

In Canada today, we attack those who championed residential schools or eugenics. We forget that at the time these were progressive movements intended by those who championed them to be to the benefit of all in society. Destroying cultural norms is always seen as central in these efforts.

The pattern repeats.

1. People with power determine their world view is superior.
2. They determine the need to "...build a better world" by imposing their world view on everyone.
3. They naturally identify those whose lifestyle, culture and world view is different.
4. They see these cultural outgroups who want to simply be left alone in peace as being in opposition to "...a better world" and therefore morally inferior.
5. They self-justify de-humanizing these cultural outgroups and therefore feel justified in punishing them.
6. They take on a mob mentality fueled by demagoguery and hate. They are morally superior and therefore justified.
7. The cultural outgroup suffers.
8. We do not get "...a better world".

The Chinese cultural revolution -

https://youtu.be/LqJ9IpWOYQA

SAITAETGrad,

Stalin was an egotistical sociopath. In his review of Kipling, Orwell makes a very clear distinction between Kipling, and the absolute power freaks of the thirties and forties.

--
JHG

...even "egotistical sociopath" can have visions and know what type of world is best.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

What type of world is best? Not to nitpick, but an important distinction to remember is that every idea has pros and cons that will help some and harm others.

I do agree with the larger point however that anybody can have an idea worth considering. The opposite is also true. Personally I'm thankful not to be a major world figure, I'd rather not have every statement and decision second-guessed decades afterward by folks with little understanding of the struggles of my life/time.

Egotistical sociopaths don't often like to entertain a multitude of ideas.

Never heard of the iron ring,

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

Egotistical sociopaths only need one 'true' path or idea.

As far as the iron ring goes... it's mostly a Canadian thing, from a time where the engineering profession was 'lofty'.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

I have to admit, Kipling and Stalin are not people that worry me today. They died many years ago.

The people alive today that say they must gain ever more control of your life to "...build a better world..." worry me considerably more.

If the Ritual of the Iron Ring is a bit silly a bit serious with some flaws but also some utility - why not just leave it alone?

I wouldn't change it because of the tradition... your call if you opt out... Changing it only begs for future changes...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Yes, the Wardens said in their release that they hoped that making changes would set the ritual up for another century. Based on that comment, it would seem they really don't understand what is happening. They'd be lucky to get five years.

Update:

Link

They are requesting new poems. We'll see how this goes.

The Engineer's Masterpiece, or The Iron Ring

Have you heard of the Iron Ring,
A symbol of an engineer's thing,
Designed to last a hundred years,
And leave no engineer in tears.

The story goes, in days of yore,
The iron rings were forged before,
A pledge to ethics, truth, and skill,
A vow to do no engineer ill.

The ring was built to last and last,
Through every trial and tempest blast,
A symbol of a noble craft,
And a mark of those who know their graft.

But as the years went rolling by,
And revolutions swept on high,
The Iron Ring, it lost its way,
And soon began to fall away.

In China's Cultural Revolution,
The old was torn down, a resolution,
To build a better world for all,
But soon the dream began to fall.

In Russia, too, a great upheaval,
To make a new world, a fresh medieval,
But the old ways died hard and slow,
And soon they had nowhere to go.

And so it happened, a hundred years to the day,
The ceremony was held, they say,
To honor engineers and their might,
And celebrate their ethical light.

But as they stood and took the pledge,
The Iron Ring, upon the edge,
Began to crumble and to fall,
A symbol of a broken call.

For those who tore down institutions old,
In the name of progress, truth be told,
Were blinded by their own conceit,
And failed to see the Ring's defeat.

The engineers looked on in shock,
As the Iron Ring, with a knock,
Collapsed into a heap of rust,
A memory of a bygone trust.

The new engineers scratched their head,
"What do we do?" they sadly said,
But then one had a brilliant plan,
"I know! Let's use a rubber band!"

And so the rubber band was stretched,
But alas, it quickly wretched,
As the demands of revolution,
Led to its quick dissolution.

And so they learned a lesson dear,
That progress is not always clear,
That what is old should not be cast,
But cherished, honored, and built to last.

For times have changed, and so have we,
But progress is not always free,
And so we mourn what has passed,
And learn from our mistakes at last.

The Iron Ring, it may be lost,
And with it, ethics at a cost,
But let it be a cautionary tale,
Of hubris and progress that sometimes fail.

I kinda like Dr. Seus, myself...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

It sort of reads like they're thinking of keeping 'If' and some other aspects of the ceremony but replacing 'The Sons of Martha' and 'The Hymn of the Breaking Strain'

No, they are overhauling far more than a couple poems.

And yet,
in this month's circular from APEGS:

Quote:

Call for Expressions of Interest
The Corporation of the Seven Wardens is seeking to commission new poems to be used in the Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer and a historical video in honour of its 100th anniversary in 2025. The deadline to submit expressions of interest is March 31, 2023.