Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
(OP)
Hi All,
I have masters degree in Mechanical engineering but not PE license. In past, I worked for several small and huge corporations (Fortune 10)in different functions as Design Engineer,Supplier Quality Engineer, Product Validation Engineer etc. As I never needed to be a PE to work for big jobs in big corporations, i never really looked into getting the PE license myself. Now I want to start my own company in Minnesota. I would like to start by providing engineering consultation services to the companies and its getting very confusing to whether i can do that without being PE. Also, i have not been able to clearly understand which services i can provide without being PE. For example, lets say i would like to help a client with their supplier quality assurance and quality management system related work, am i allowed to do that under my own company? Is there any clear list posted anywhere that shows which engineering related tasks/functions can be done without PE under my own company and which cannot? Is manufacturing/quality support even considered as engineering work?? What is considered engineering practice vs other management tasks? Mostly by reading the Statutes i felt they were more related to civil/construction/architectural/geoscience related stuff, or using the term engineering in general.
If anyone of you have faced similar situation? Any solutions? Suggestions? Who should i contact? Where to look this type of info?? It appears “Engineers” per state are different than “Engineers” working in all small and big industries/corporations and it appears the same work which i was doing inside the companies i used to work for is not allowed to do on my own by making my own company.
Thanks a ton in advance for help !!
I have masters degree in Mechanical engineering but not PE license. In past, I worked for several small and huge corporations (Fortune 10)in different functions as Design Engineer,Supplier Quality Engineer, Product Validation Engineer etc. As I never needed to be a PE to work for big jobs in big corporations, i never really looked into getting the PE license myself. Now I want to start my own company in Minnesota. I would like to start by providing engineering consultation services to the companies and its getting very confusing to whether i can do that without being PE. Also, i have not been able to clearly understand which services i can provide without being PE. For example, lets say i would like to help a client with their supplier quality assurance and quality management system related work, am i allowed to do that under my own company? Is there any clear list posted anywhere that shows which engineering related tasks/functions can be done without PE under my own company and which cannot? Is manufacturing/quality support even considered as engineering work?? What is considered engineering practice vs other management tasks? Mostly by reading the Statutes i felt they were more related to civil/construction/architectural/geoscience related stuff, or using the term engineering in general.
If anyone of you have faced similar situation? Any solutions? Suggestions? Who should i contact? Where to look this type of info?? It appears “Engineers” per state are different than “Engineers” working in all small and big industries/corporations and it appears the same work which i was doing inside the companies i used to work for is not allowed to do on my own by making my own company.
Thanks a ton in advance for help !!
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
Some state boards have gone after people for submitting a calculation and mentioning they have an engineering degree. I think the state board lost on that, but the legal costs (money, time, worry) for defending weren't compensated.
There may also be questions for any insurance company providing liability coverage. If you design a widget for some major company that ends up injuring or killing people (think choking hazard from a toy) you may need a lot of coverage.
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
So, your state will have an equivalent PE Act, and in there will be a description of what constitutes "engineering" in that state. Note that most states have overly broad definitions, such as Oregon, wherein someone looking for a fight about the subject opined his engineering opinion about the timing of traffic lights and got in the sights of the state's PE board, which was severely castigated for having such overly broad definitions.
Note that California has an "industrial exemption" wherein consultants for companies producing products are typically exemption PE law in the state, since it's up to the company to police its own work.
Note that as a consultant to industrial companies in the California, your work is offered to the general public, and as stated in the California PE Act, the intent is to protect public safety
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
Interesting.
You work be allowed to start an engineering company, however that company is not allowed to do engineering.
I don't find that MN actually defines "engineering".
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
The industrial exemption
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
Thanks.
That's vague as hell, and overly broad.
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
I did look through the sections 326.02 to 326.15 as well as the Subd/ 5 Limitation. Again, to me, it feels like it is more specifically related to civil/construction/building related stuff. The engineering term is used in much broader sense and doesn't clearly defines which tasks/functions are allowed/not allowed considering providing services to industries rather than direct to public or govt. Like I mentioned in my original post, say if I want to help a client with their supplier quality assurance and quality management system related work, am I allowed to do that under my own company? The sections don't really give any clear guidance on it. If I was working for any established corporation, I would be working as a "supplier quality engineer" / "quality engineer" responsible for the same. Would state/board consider this as an engineering service work if I want to do this under my own company? I do not see any mention of say "Quality Engineering" / "Manufacturing Engineering" or related terms in any of the section. Say if my company engages in inspection of parts, or helps the client with 6-sigma methodologies, or help them improve their manufacturing processes, would this be considered as "engineering services"? Lets say if I do not design anything new for company and choose to do Inspection of parts or Gage R&R studies on internal or supplier parts, this will involve some mathematical calculations resulting into some specific suggestions for process improvements. Does this mean its "engineering"?
Not sure if this is a right question for this forum/thread, but do you guys know if boards carry list of tasks/functions that they would specify as engineering vs non-engineering, which can help them go investigating the Firms in question? something like that would be a good point of start for me to identify which specific services I am allowed to provide without being a PE.
Thanks again for the responses and guidance.
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
It will probably boil down to a) the name of the company b) the name of the services you provide and c) the actual nature of those services.
a) TheRealEngineer LLC would probably get flagged and the secretary of state would demand approval form the engineering board, which you wouldn't get. So best to pick something without "Engineer" in it.
b) If you try to sell a "Process Improvement Engineering" service item or job title, you're running afoul of the regs. Maybe go for "Manufacturing Efficiency Consultant".
c) Don't have techs out there altering machines. Give guidance on how things could be done better, and let the company interface with the machinery manufacturer's engineers for technical adjustments.
Once you put this together in a business plan, make an appointment with a board member and ask to discuss it and see if they have any issues. I did this in Virginia - my first job out of school was working for a company as a structural engineer, but they had no licensed engineers and had consultants do everything. They wanted to bring me in to do preliminary designs to improve estimating and speed up the work flow. My concern was that the time wouldn't count toward my license. I scheduled a call with a member of the board, we walked through it, and they informed me that as long as I worked closely with the consultants and they provided recommendations, it would be fine.
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
"...who holds out as being able to perform or who does perform any technical professional service, such as planning, design or observation of construction for the purpose of assuring compliance with specifications and design, in connection with any public or private structures, buildings, utilities, machines, equipment, processes, works, or projects..."
square with your interpretation of not needing a license to provide engineering services to companies?
Perhaps mechanical engineers are regulated differently, but I know that if I were unlicensed, hired as a consultant, and completed the structural design of a manufacturing facility directly for ABC Widgets, Inc., I would be squarely on the wrong side of my state laws and regulations for the practice of Professional Engineering. Board discipline lists usually have a handful of people doing just that every quarter. 90% of my work is directly with businesses. Even if I dropped the other 10%, I would still need my licenses.
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
For example, lets say i would like to help a client with their supplier quality assurance and quality management system related work, am I allowed to do that under my own company? > Sure, why not, assuming they don't want a PE stamp on anything (which is unlikely for an industrial company). Just don't put "Engineering" or similar into your company name, and if you apply for a local business license, don't use any term like "engineering"; just state you are doing "manufacturing and management consulting" or something vague like that.
Is there any clear list posted anywhere that shows which engineering related tasks/functions can be done without PE under my own company and which cannot? > Nope. Nowhere that I know of.
Is manufacturing/quality support even considered as engineering work?? > Nope, not in relation to needing a PE license. And there are many such consultants who don't even have engineering degrees.
What is considered engineering practice vs other management tasks? > it is not well defined.
Technically, in most states, though the "requirements" are incredible vague and unclear (and are written by and for mostly civil engineers), if you have an engineering consulting company and do work for a industrial exempt company, you need to be licensed. However, in practice this is completely stupid. I have worked for 40+ years in the aerospace industry, part of the time as a direct employee and part as an independent consultant, and NEVER has anyone cared one micro bit if I or anyone has a PE license, as nothing gets a PE stamp on it. The same for every other aerospace industry engineering consultant - almost no one bothers with getting a PE license. And besides, there is no PE discipline for most of what us aerospace engineers actually do (e.g., for CA see 3rd paragraph here: https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/appintrope.sh... ). I actually took and passed the Mechanical Eng PE exam at age ~ 40, though in hindsight it was a complete waste of time (nothing/nada/zip on the exam or in any of the practice exams/study guide/reference materials had anything to do with the engineering that I do).
So, if you are in an exempt industry (see info here: https://fxbinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/stat... ) , and you keep "engineering" out of your company name, it is very likely that no one will bother you. And if questioned, just state you are doing "management consulting" (no one knows what those consultants really do anyway, other than charge a lot of $).
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
even if you dont need it, it will help with credibility and marketing.
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
Private use is neither public nor commercial.
Engineering boards are regulatory agencies, not legislators nor courts. They may interpret the law, accuse you of breaking it, and offer an opportunity to save court costs in exchange for penance and an admission of guilt, but that doesn't mean you've actually broken the law nor that their interpretation is correct. Manufacturing facilities and industrial sites have been overwhelmingly engineered by unlicensed engineers protected by corporate attorneys and the industrial exemption since each began. If an engineering board wanted to pursue an engineer for working in one then they'd be pretty quickly bordering on misconduct and opening themselves personally to liability.
Whenever this topic comes up I can't help but notice the same illogical suggestions and claims pushed. Dont use the word engineer in a business name, an unregulated title common in business names unrelated to engineering in all 50. Most everything done by engineers isnt actually engineering, nvm SQE, SME, etc. Seriously?
OP, if you are still employed I would recommend requesting that your corporate attorney give a class on the industrial exemption.
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
It seems like it is safe in the state of Oregon, but other district courts are not bound by this decision.
https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-...
For this guy the Institute for Justice stepped in to take it to a Federal District Court. It sits under the 9th Circuit Court.
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
3DDave- "What's your budget for fighting in court over the use of "engineer"?" --> As I am just planning to start the business, I would rather like to focus on the quality of my work to help my clients, than getting stuck and fighting in courts over the use of "Engineer". As I have experience in multiple functions I thought without being PE, quality assurance & manufacturing (like consulting them with more productive business processes/ assisting with PPAP etc.)would be something easy to start the business with without being stopped by board/state. That way I can at least get started with my business and once I feel that I should get into real "Engineering" type of work, like designing , calculations and stuff like that, I would consider getting PE myself or get someone who already has PE on-board. So, to avoid any kind of the "engineering" related roadblocks, I wanted to clearly understand which functions/actions I am allowed to do without being PE, so that I can at least start and not run into a wall on my first few steps.
SWComposites- "And if questioned, just state you are doing "management consulting"" --> Using Management Consulting makes sense, as it wont be "Engineering" services anyways.
"(no one knows what those consultants really do anyway, other than charge a lot of $)".--> Hahaha, I felt the same way when I was working in those big companies. I will make sure that my clients know what I am doing and possibly charge less?? haha.
MintJulep - "At any rate, "quality assurance consulting" is not engineering." --> I hope the same.
Now, I am planning to call the Board and ask them these specific questions, item by item, action by action and see what they say about it. It would be helpful to understand what their interpretation of manufacturing and quality service is and I believe that would be one way to assure that I am not stepping on "Professional Engineer's" professional shoe!!
Thanks again!!
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
IMHO that's a non-issue. District courts arent necessarily bound by each other's decisions but they usually do respect them. There is also decades of well-established case law specifically protecting free-use of engineer/engineered/engineering and other single-word titles under the 2nd amendment. Reading a few of the decisions its pretty clear that the courts dont have much patience for arguing the issue ad-nauseum, likely why these cases are rare and lead to quick decisions against the board followed by an appeal, a quick second/supporting decision against, and admonishment of the board.
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
Just note that verbal opinions are often not considered to be "official;" people have gotten burnt by the IRS helpline giving out erroneous information and the user getting stuck with the bill and penalties.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
So, I ended up calling an attorney for initial consultation and they helped me understand some of the things I had questions with. Basically, assisting/consulting for the productivity or management type of actions that I anyways was looking for should be okay. They also suggested to use some form of disclaimers wherever and whenever possible (if I feel it is getting close to engineering function) to make it obvious to the clients that I do not provide professional engineering services and it should be checked/approved by their own licensed PE. Somewhere along those lines.
One question that still lingers in my head is in the following sentence
I really appreciate all your responses and willingness to help. I got lots of valuable information and guidance from you guys than anywhere out on the internet, so THANK YOU...
RE: Aspirations to start Engineering Business!!
I suspect that as long as you're not 'assuring compliance with specifications and design" developed by a PE, you're okay. In other words, if you advise a plant on a new management process and then observe them and give a report on whether or not they complied with your designed process, you should be okay because that process didn't require a professional engineer to create it.