Maybe they should disconnect the batteries on thousands of cars crammed in a box. Perhaps the manufactures should install simple disconnects on every car.

Or, the shipping company should pay for every lost car. Then maybe they'd enforce a functional fire-watch.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

I'd imagine and expect that some fire protection measure are in place given the vast sums of valuable cargo at stake. That said it wouldn't be the first time that safety is neglected at the owners peril.

It is certainly not the first time such an incident has occurred. Nor an issue than hasn't been considered.
https://safety4sea.com/car-carrier-fires-and-the-a...
https://www.dnv.com/news/enhancing-fire-safety-on-...

Quote (Registered to Panama,)

I'm not surprised, given issues with batteries. There should also be a universal and international registration of vessels. The rechargeable battery charger for my snowblower has a fan cooling circuit as part of the charger to reduce the chances of over heating.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

It should be no surprise that the ship is registered in Panama, as 17% of all merchant ships are. About 3/4 of all ships are registered under flags of convenience.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/264025/number-...'s%20flag.

Thanks Hokie... didn't know the percentage... I wonder why?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Batteries? Maybe.

Gasoline? Maybe.

both? Maybe.


spsalso

Ro/Ro ships have notoriously had issues with fires. I spent some time working on one. 1/4 tank of gas max for all vehicles on the ship. We had a CO2 fire suppression system. It was sized for one compartment and the ship consisted of 6 compartments. Fixed CO2 systems rely on a lot of things going right to be effective. I don't know if any Ro/Do ships that use systems such as Halon or it's successors for cargo hold protection due to cost.

There goes my Porsche - bugger 😉

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

Its funny with cars full of fuel.

This side of the pond they say they are at there most dangerous when they are partial filled. When its full they don't explode. Empty they have enough vapour to go bang.

Those are all new so suspect they will only have a couple of litres in them.

Quote (dik)

Thanks Hokie... didn't know the percentage... I wonder why?

Its a lot cheaper to make them, I think I read somewhere that a cruise ship on the American registry would cost 3 times as much as one built in Japan and Panama registered.

Too bad Artisi. I get a shot at it. With the storm front coming in, maybe I'll be able to snag one.

If I get 2, I'll let you know.
Full tanks or not, they'll burn either way. Just a load of popcorn.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

The German media are say it's mostly high-end cars onboard.

Plus some electric.

Tugs on there way but 2-3 days until they get there.

Lots of weather too.
4m waves.



A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

Crew's off no major injuries. Which is the main thing

I'm calculating drift course.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

This has triggered my shipping news feed again. Which is no bad thing.

https://gcaptain.com/ntsb-says-failure-to-disconne...

https://gcaptain.com/car-carrier-felicity-ace-aban...

https://gcaptain.com/electric-vehicles-and-maritim...

Quote (dik)

fan cooling circuit as part of the charger to reduce the chances of over heating

Which means when the fan dies (and they ALWAYS DIE) you have a total disaster. A fan is not an improvement.

I think that ship should be torpedoed immediately. I believe the gross pollution would be minimized with it all a couple of thousand feet on the bottom. Then I'd fry the shipping company for the pollution caused by allowing a major fire to break out.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

Quote (A fan is not an improvement.)

Thanks for the 'heads-up'. I thought it was a neat safety item.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

The fan has to die, or it feeds the flames with O2.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

Theres a lot of weather out here this week. We're getting waves of fog, low cloud, wind and rain today, forecast for tomorrow and Monday. Then more for Wednesday-Thurs. Only lows of 14° here, but there'll be a lot of snow upstairs. Snow line is dropping from 2000 to 1700m, which is lower than the top of the valley at Puerto la Cruz-Orotava and only 1000m above Tenerife North Airport. Vilaflor, at 1700m is the highest town in Spain, on the south face of the peak, should get well dusted. Azores are quite farther NW, so probably much worse there.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

Eh, crap happens. The media obviously needs a bit of filler this week.

Quote (Dik)

Thanks Hokie... didn't know the percentage... I wonder why?

Onboard wages, safety rules, minimum conditions, etc are a function of the labor laws in the country in which the ship is registered.

So yeah running a ship that flagged in the US or a first world european country is astronomically more expensive than the commons flags of convenience (panama, liberia, etc)

It looks like the ship won't be scuttled.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/22/tech/cargo-ship...

Ship carrying thousands of luxury cars to U.S. sinks in Atlantic Ocean CBS News - 3h ago

Joao Mendes Cabecas, the captain of the nearest port on the island of Faial, told Reuters the ship sank as efforts to tow it began due to structural problems caused by the fire and rough seas.

"When the towing started ... water started to come in," he told Reuters. "The ship lost its stability and sank."

The Portuguese navy confirmed the sinking, saying it occurred outside Portuguese waters at a depth of about 30,000 feet.

Any idea of the value... maybe $300M? Read the article $155M...
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

both numbers seem to be correct. 155m in bentleys-and-lamborghinis.

Quote (https://www.autonews.com/retail/burnt-out-ship-car...)

In a projection assuming all vehicles would be lost, the risk-modeling company Russell Group last week estimated that the incident could cost the automaker at least $155 million. About $438 million worth of goods were aboard the ship, $401 million of which were cars.

I suspect they meant 3,000m, not 30,000 ft... Deepest bit of the Atlantic is 27,000ft.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

I can't imagine they didn't have insurance.
Looks like 3-4000m.
https://www.gebco.net/data_and_products/gridded_ba...

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

Do they have 'quick disconnects' on tow lines?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Yes. A very necessary safety feature.
I forget what they call the guy with the hatchet.

I remembered. Rudy Giuliani.
A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

Link

to note these are mandatory in most places in the world but not in the USA. I have already had a discussion with TUG on the subject and it turned out the regulations are completely different.

You get a bollard tow which is a rope from the towed vessel to the tug which then gets put on a f'kin great big post on the boat and the only way you can get rid of it is via axe.

Then you have the quick release hooks as pictured which have been used for 70 odd years in Europe for normal vessel shunting.

If the towed vessel can't put out a rope then the big tugs can put out reel cable but it has to go through a BOP type setup with a pair of shear jaws plus back up and a hydraulic accumulators which can cut the tow rope in under a second. But apparently when they do its lethal and will more than likely cut through the bow of the vessel being towed.

USA they use a brake system with a live end so the whole lot runs out and then releases when the cable runs out. But that usually results in a fire onboard from the reel drum and brake unit.

I have zero clue about the pluses and minuses of both systems but its seems to be in the same league as 240V V 110V for domestic electricity as a pissing match between the two methods.

Thanks, Cool...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Main reason for wanting to lose a tow quickly is less about being pulled down if the tow sinks and more to stop you being pulled over if it overtakes and starts to pull you sideways. "Girting" is deadly.

A.

Modern tow winches have fail in free spool option (except for Jon Rie but they're despised in the industry by everybody but shareholders). Push a button, all brakes and clutches release. The wire pays out and is weakly fastened to the drum.

Inland boats still use bitts for towing but anything offshore is on winches.

Here is an example of an emergency release being bypassed while experiencing a sinking tow resulting in a fatality of a crew member.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/marine/...

The secondary brake is unusual. The winch likely had a capstain and motor brakes are intended for holding the capstain only.

As in tight enough to never fall off?

Why on that disaster barge cruise did they extend the tow line 1 meter per day? Wear?

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

Quote:

Why on that disaster barge cruise did they extend the tow line 1 meter per day? Wear?

Yes, the tugs have rollers on the steen to prevent wear as the wire is paid in and out but the side to side motion during tow puts flat spots in the rollers. Sadly, our industry has not figured out that hardened rollers are the solution. Some companies will install a tow shoe which is a plastic faced plate that clamps to the wire. Then you pay the wire out until the shoe sits on the roller.

Tight enough to never fall off? Friction transfers the towing forces to the drum. When the drum is empty with no more layers all fo the force is transferred to the hold down which is weak and will break. We usually maintain 2-3 layers minimum on a drum.

With that said, as a company we only do occasional offshore tows. Most of my experience is with high performance synthetic rope on drums for ship docking. High performance synthetic rope is much more slippery and much less elastic than steel so there are some additional considerations.

Its was a Schmitt Boka that was towing it I think.



Schmitt are definitely EU rags so will need hydraulic shears to cut the cable.

but if the rollers were hardened wouldn't movement of the wire rope start fraying the rope?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

That tug will have 3.5"ish towing wire. Shears would be quite large and I do not see such a device in the photo.

That orange hook shaped thing in the center, we employ a bunch of the descendents of its inventor.

LI, with soft steel, the cable just cuts grooves in the rollers and guides making the surface longer smooth which snags the cable. A drum will usually have 2000 feet of wire while a roller may only have 6 feet of circumference so the wear gets distributed along the wire but is quite concentrated on the roller.

Hardening a roller might not do too much; I recall a thread where the OP was asking about something harder that steel to prevent cotton thread from cutting into rollers. thread367-92753: Why hard material wear when slid aginst soft one?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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Some boats don't have rollers. In the Navy towing manual they recommend cap rails be at least 50 HRC.

Thread guides are usually ceramic these days.
And it still cuts into them eventually.
I believe that the USN sometimes used PH stainless for these wear parts then they don't worry about corrosion either.

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P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed