Suez Canal blocked by container ship
30

Question

Suez Canal blocked by container ship

verymadmac (Mechanical)

(OP)

25 Mar 21 06:38

It might not be an engineering issue that started it, but I bet is going to change a few specifications.
BBC piece here Link

It looks like the bow is hard aground, refloating will be an interesting exercise given the time pressure.

Canal profile is here
https://www.suezcanal.gov.eg/English/About/SuezCan...

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 1 · 2021-03-25 07:02:44

Bow is up hard, stern is in the mud, too. All of the talk is about wind load on such a boxy ship but I imagine the water pressure is quite intense with the ship completely cutting off flow. This is likely going to have a bigger economic impact on Europe that COVID. Probably going to be faster to dig a new canal around the ship.

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 2 · 2021-03-25 09:01:20

Real time AIS data shows the current state of the blockage You need to zoom in on Egypt.

Screenshot from Vessel Finder March 25 2021 8:53 AM GMT

Similar to the grounding of the USS Missouri in 1950. Hopefully salvage will not take as long as that effort, this is a huge task.

ABC News Trapped container ship blocks navigation in Egypt's Suez Canal

The Guardian Giant ship blocking Suez canal partially refloated

Screenshot from Vessel Finder March 25 2021 9:13 AM GMT

itsmoked (Electrical) · Answer 3 · 2021-03-25 11:52:00

The canal should probably not be so narrow as to have one ship bollix it up.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 4 · 2021-03-25 13:07:33

Well ... I think they are not supposed to try to go through the canal SIDEWAYS! thumbsdown

Especially when its 1300 feet long.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 5 · 2021-03-25 15:00:10

This ship is a "suezmax" ship, it's the largest size allowed by length (400m). Length is limited by the ability to make turns. Perhaps in the future they'll also limit length based on ability to completely shut down the canal.

moon161 (Mechanical) · Answer 6 · 2021-03-25 17:04:23

Possibly had a 12-year old boy at the helm

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/suez-canal-blocked-...

dik (Structural) · Answer 7 · 2021-03-25 17:40:46

Good article on BBC:

https://www.bbc.com/news/56523659

ya, but he was a good 12 year old.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

rb1957 (Aerospace) · Answer 8 · 2021-03-25 17:43:29

"Probably going to be faster to dig a new canal around the ship." ... a couple of bombs would do wonders

can they unload containers "at sea" ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

dik (Structural) · Answer 9 · 2021-03-25 17:46:34

Quote (can they unload containers "at sea")

don't see why not... the ship's not moving... lol

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

dik (Structural) · Answer 10 · 2021-03-25 17:49:27

Just curious... is the front of the ship, the bow, or the stem. I thought the bow was the curved part that breaks the waterline. Don't know for sure...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

SwinnyGG (Mechanical) · Answer 11 · 2021-03-25 18:05:09

bow is the front

stern is the rear

port to the left

starboard to the right

draught is depth between the water surface and the bottom of the keel

Congratulations, you now probably know more nautical terms than whatever idiot steered this boat into the side of the canal

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 12 · 2021-03-25 18:06:35

RE: Suez Canal blocked by container ship

1503-44 (Petroleum) 25 Mar 21 18:06

Isn't the front is always the bow. 2thumbsup

dik (Structural) · Answer 13 · 2021-03-25 18:17:46

Swinny and 1503... what is the stem?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

waross (Electrical) · Answer 14 · 2021-03-25 18:18:18

Mised part of the question.
What is the Stem, other than a typo.
A part of the bow.

Quote (Wiki)
The stem is the most forward part of a boat or ship's bow and is an extension of the keel itself. It is often found on wooden boats or ships, but not exclusively.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

dik (Structural) · Answer 15 · 2021-03-25 18:22:28

Found it...
The bow frame forming the apex of the intersection of the forward sides of a ship. At its lower end it is rigidly connected to the keel. It and may be a heavy flat bar or of rounded plate construction.

It appears to be infront of the bow... maybe the front of the ship.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

dik (Structural) · Answer 16 · 2021-03-25 18:23:19

Thanks, Bill...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

dik (Structural) · Answer 17 · 2021-03-25 18:26:34

Found some more...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

SnTMan (Mechanical) · Answer 18 · 2021-03-25 18:40:48

moon161, now that's journalism. I can only imagine the shame the other news orgs must be feeling, to have missed the real story :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

SwinnyGG (Mechanical) · Answer 19 · 2021-03-25 18:51:30

Quote (dik)
Swinny and 1503... what is the stem?

Apologies, I misread 'stem' as "stern".

The 'bow' is generally the front part of the hull; the end of the boat aimed at the direction of travel. The 'stem' is the structural member that forms the edge of the bow. On a wood planked hull, the stem is an extension of the keel which extends from the keel to the gunwale, and forms the backbone of the the forward structure of the ship, and is also the member against which the planks terminate.

In this photo the curved part in the front is the stem. On a real boat, there would be a joint between the stem and the keel somewhere near the midpoint of the transition from the vertical stem to the horizontal keel.

A steel ship with a curved bow does not, technically, have a stem, although some people will still use the term 'stem' to refer to the forward most edge of the bow.

dik (Structural) · Answer 20 · 2021-03-25 18:53:03

Thanks...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 21 · 2021-03-25 19:00:12

A pity the BBC article didn't do the cross sections to scale....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 22 · 2021-03-25 19:01:03

This is the best picture of a flat bar type stem that I have.

dgallup (Automotive) · Answer 23 · 2021-03-25 20:41:59

The ships name is the EVER GIVEN which you can see on the bow (and I think on the stern but it's a little fuzzy in the photos I've seen) but the photos show EVERGREEN painted in huge block letters on the sides of the ship. Why is that?

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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

SwinnyGG (Mechanical) · Answer 24 · 2021-03-25 20:46:57

Evergreen Marine is the O&O of the vessel. I believe the names of all their commissioned vessels are the word 'Ever' followed by some other word

Ever Given, Ever Glory, Ever Golden, Ever Grade, Ever Globe, etc etc etc are all ships in their fleet.

zeusfaber (Military) · Answer 25 · 2021-03-25 21:25:40

The ships are just part of the brand. They also own a lot of the containers, some of the terminals where they're unloaded, a couple of airlines (forcing other users to abandon the EVERGREEN callsign as they expanded their activities across the globe), assorted aviation services, a chain of hotels - oh, and a symphony orchestra.

A.

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 26 · 2021-03-25 22:43:58

BBC: Suez Canal: How are they trying to free the Ever Given?
Some good photographs here. This ship is well embedded into both banks of the canal. I think Tugboat is correct in that this work will amount to a huge amount of digging.

https://www.space.com/stuck-ship-suez-canal-satell...
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/25/981128288/it-might-...

Comcokid (Electrical) · Answer 27 · 2021-03-26 01:53:21

The Ever Given ship made some strange maneuvers in the Red Sea before entering the canal. ponder

The link below is a tweet from the site 'Vessel Finder' that tracks ships and shipping.
https://twitter.com/VesselFinder/status/1374716424...
This New York Post title states it clearly. . . . . . .
https://nypost.com/2021/03/24/cargo-ship-drew-peni...

dik (Structural) · Answer 28 · 2021-03-26 03:03:27

Could part of the problem be lack of maintenance on the canal? I'd try to use hydrodemolition of the soils at the rear of the boat and try to swing the rear out first, since it was likely the last part to become grounded.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 29 · 2021-03-26 05:46:46

Dick, the ship got itself perpendicular to the canal. This is a ship's problem. It did so at speed (13 knots) so it's also a salvor's problem as it got pushed in to the sand with a great deal of kinetic energy. In surprised there are no breached tanks but then again nearly every story we have heard has been lie.

Nothing was unusual about the maneuvers prior to entering the canal. Ships can't just park so they run their engine for a bit and drift for a bit. It's unfortunate that they created a pattern.

Digging may be reqired but offloading the stern of the ship will be a priority so it can be pivoted to open the canal for one way traffic at a minimum.

Sunday will be the highest tide in a while so if it can't be rotated by then it will be stuck for a long time. I don't have high hopes.

Lloyd Register estimates the daily cost including daily charter rates for delayed ships at $400 million per hour. This is literally bigger than COVID.

georgeverghese (Chemical) · Answer 30 · 2021-03-26 06:21:09

The biggest tugboat the Suez Canal Authority have is a 160ton power vessel - not sure what the tons here really means.

The most powerful tugboat out there Far Samson at 400ton power appears to be tied up with some work in the Baltic Sea (and by its location, maybe some where close to the landing on the German side for NordStream II pipeline ??). Another 300ton tugboat Alp Striker appears to be occupied with some work off Aberdeen.

Retrograde (Structural) · Answer 31 · 2021-03-26 06:34:05

Quote (TugboatEng)
Lloyd Register estimates the daily cost including daily charter rates for delayed ships at $400 million per hour. This is literally bigger than COVID.

Hardly. IMF estimate of the impact of COVID on Europe was about $6 trillion. At the rate of $400M/hour the ship will need to be stuck for nearly 2 years to be bigger than COVID. And that is only considering the impact on Europe.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 32 · 2021-03-26 07:21:31

At 400 MM$ph It won't be long before someone starts thinking about nuclear options.

Tomfh (Structural) · Answer 33 · 2021-03-26 07:43:07

What’s involved in navigating big ships down those canals? How are they steered/controlled?

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 34 · 2021-03-26 08:16:28

Under their own power, unless entering locks, where they are pulled into position by diesel traction engines. Suez is a sea level crossing, so there are no locks there. I think it is normal to have a port captain responsible for steerage through the canal, but not sure about actual Suez procedures.

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 35 · 2021-03-26 08:18:33

Far Samson at 400ton power is probably Bollard Line Pull, as this vessel has 35900BHP available to the propellers, 400 Ton bollard line pull is possible.

It is also not much compared to the force required to move a ship the size of the Ever Given once you consider that it not only embedded itself into the sandy bank, but is likely pushed up, and resting on the sand rather than completely floating.

Coastal Emergency Risks Assessment now does tidal modeling world wide. High Tide in this location looks rather stable here for the next few days. Tidal range is increasing, so at low tide there will be thousands of additional tons resting on the grounded parts of the hull. This places a huge bending load on the hull.

Screen shot is from Suez, the model does not extend into the canal. Caution - this is probably a misuse of the tool, the salvors will be using better tools.

Both ends of the ship grounded, support midships removed (low tide) creates the worst case sag. A similar design case is maximum wave height, with the distance between crests just a bit shorter than hull length.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogging_and_sagging

Fred

itsmoked (Electrical) · Answer 36 · 2021-03-26 09:44:57

Removing the Ever Given by Itsmoked March 26, 2021

Consider this method:

Drop both the ship's anchors.

Onto barges.

Take the barges across the canal to the other side.

Off load the anchors onto shore.

Take them as far as possible onto shore.

Keep them angled as close to the ship's hull as possible

Excavate BIG holes.

Drop the anchors in the holes.

Fill them both in.

Drive two of the largest available bulldozers between the chains to as close as you can to the middle of the chain runs.

In a coordinated manner push both chains outward.

Taking advantage of the vector results of such a maneuver the forces applied to by the dozers are multiplied by about 100 times. A 100ton push would translate to pull on the Ever Given of 100T x 100 or 10,000T. That would be for each chain.

This gets the pull onto the Ever Given avoiding all the weak bollard limits by instead using the two points on the ship with the highest pull strength.

It pulls from the front.

It's a straightforward concept once the math is understood.

It uses already on-site equipment. (Anchors & chains)

It's frequently used when stuck off road with uncanny success. It has never failed me.

90% of the effort is shore based and not water/floating difficult.

It lends itself very well for unsticking because as the stuck item unsticks the right-angle cable pulling or pushing motion can continue to exert a continuous but rapidly lessening force (due to the vector changing) on the tension member, keeping the extrication in motion and the cable(s) from being run over.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 37 · 2021-03-26 09:59:31

The salvors might off load the anchors and anchor chain just due to the weight. The Bow where the anchor and chain are stored is the end that rammed the shore, and is deeply embedded in sand.

I do not think anyone has mentioned that in addition to the ship being grounded, with it partly being supported by the sand it's ends are embedded into there is a significant flow of water along the length of the canal which is pushing on the side of the ship. Possible several thousands of tons of force against the side of the hull. This force reverses with the tide cycle.
It is not clear if this helps or hurts the salvage effort.

davefitz (Mechanical) · Answer 38 · 2021-03-26 12:35:29

Judging form the pictures of the grounding, and the above listed proposed fixes, it might be timely for someone to list what the magnitude of the forces involved are. I could only laugh at the size of the "giant" bulldozer pushing up against the hull of the ship, it is the equivalent of a flea pushing a 300 lb sumo wrestler off a chair.Short of unloading the ship , the only non destructive fix I can imagine is the jet washing of sand to form a new canal bank 30 ft outboard of the original bank.

With a shipping loss of $400 million USD/day, one may wonder if destructive methods are also being considered. One bombing run might take a few minutes.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

bones206 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 39 · 2021-03-26 13:03:29

I heard with the polar ice cap melting, a new northern route may open up that is shorter than using the Suez. Perhaps we just wait. Shouldn't be much longer now...

dik (Structural) · Answer 40 · 2021-03-26 13:32:10

Quote (with a great deal of kinetic energy.)

I thought that was one of the reasons it got 'wedged', and that the stern pivoted and wedged the rear into the bank on the opposite side... that's why I was thining of hydrodemolition... to wash away the soil.

I thought that all boats travelling the canal had to have an Egyptian pilot; has this changed?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 41 · 2021-03-26 14:47:40

If the stern can be floated the ship can be pivoted out of the way. The bow is high and dry, it hit first and that's where most of the energy was dissipated.

Fastest option? Sacrifice the center of the container stack and use shaped charges to split the ship in two. Swing the ship open like a gate to allow one way travel, then offload containers to the banks, and then tow away the remains.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 42 · 2021-03-26 14:58:11

For a very interesting 'slideshow', once you open the item below, select the first large photo and you'll bring-up a 19 image slideshow showing various views of the situation:

Satellite image reveals true extent of the traffic jam caused by mega-ship lodged in the Suez Canal - as shipping firms call on US Navy for help amid fears cargo vessels are sitting ducks for PIRATES

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9405423/S...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

dik (Structural) · Answer 43 · 2021-03-26 15:35:17

I didn't realise it, but with the accumulating costs... the ship is the least value...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 44 · 2021-03-26 16:04:21

Well at least they've fond a decent looking suction dredger.

Now slow as she goes otherwise you'll have a capsize.

Freeing the front end and then pulling it round is the only way they'll get it free is my opinion.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

dik (Structural) · Answer 45 · 2021-03-26 16:20:00

Is it better to suck up the mud, or to wash it away and worry about what to do with it later?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 46 · 2021-03-26 16:23:07

A suction dredge can pump the mud up on to the beach. No post processing required.

dik (Structural) · Answer 47 · 2021-03-26 16:31:35

Thanks... just thought it would be slower.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 48 · 2021-03-26 17:38:57

dik, from the photos JRB linked to they are just moving it down the canal...

But it does look like they finally got the big guns in.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

davefitz (Mechanical) · Answer 49 · 2021-03-26 17:41:30

some online rumors the pilot was an egyptian woman, may have deliberately wedged the ship in response to some military operations against Iran- lots of wild theories now coming out.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RVAmeche (Mechanical) · Answer 50 · 2021-03-26 18:26:49

I think I'd stick with the high winds and low visibility rationale unless something concrete comes out.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 51 · 2021-03-26 19:09:17

I don't buy wind or visibility. When a ship turns by rudder it pivots around a point 1/3 of the ship length from the bow. Looking at the pic from above, that pivot point is right where the ship would have normally been in the channel. The ship had to have turned in to the bank, not drifted. Saying this was intentional is a bold claim.

This is a new ship. It's still on the left side of the bathtub curve. I'd be most confident guessing that it was a mechanical/electrical failure.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 52 · 2021-03-26 19:33:09

It appears that this incident may already be driving up the price of crude oil. On the NY Mercantile, the May 21st contract for Crude is up nearly 4% today:

Energy Industry Grapples With Fallout From Suez Canal Blockage

Cost of renting oil tankers rises, shippers start to plot alternative routes

https://www.wsj.com/articles/energy-industry-grapp...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

MacGyverS2000 (Electrical) · Answer 53 · 2021-03-26 19:46:08

Slow drift towards bank, bow touches first, increased bow drag against sand starts a hard turn into bank... the rest is physics (well, all of it is except the first part).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

waross (Electrical) · Answer 54 · 2021-03-26 19:59:21

Quote:
I heard with the polar ice cap melting, a new northern route may open up that is shorter than using the Suez.

I'd guess possibly shorter than the Panama canal.
On the other hand, the rising waters from global warming my eventually free the Ever Givener.
Joking aside, the dredge looks like the final solution.
I imagine that the work on the bow first is to lessen the chance of damaging the hull, either from uneven support or from twisting the ship off of the shoal.
Comments Tug?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 55 · 2021-03-26 20:03:40

No, not buying it. The bow is quite a bit narrower than the rest of the ship. It would not have contacted bow first if it were a slow drifting. Contact would occur at the red circle.

The ship also had enough momentum perpendicular to the canal to drive far up the sides of the canal. Remember, the canal bottom is trapezoidal so it had been in contact with the bottom for quite some time.

dik (Structural) · Answer 56 · 2021-03-26 20:04:07

What is the bathtub curve? Curious mimes want to know...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 57 · 2021-03-26 20:17:53

Bathtub curve:

I looked it up and this ship ks 2-3 years old.
That's older than I thought and should put it in the constant failure portion of the curve.

dik (Structural) · Answer 58 · 2021-03-26 20:41:00

Thanks...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

waross (Electrical) · Answer 59 · 2021-03-26 20:48:26

"WE are too close on the port side.
Alter course to starbord."
"Aye sir. Altering course to starbord"
"Oh shit."
?????

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Tomfh (Structural) · Answer 60 · 2021-03-26 21:10:17

Quote:
This places a huge bending load on the hull.

What are the design loads for ships like this?

Do you design for the ship being supported by its bow?

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 61 · 2021-03-26 21:22:36

Absolutely not. Each ship has strict limits on shear and bending. To much weight in the middle or on the ends causes hogging or sagging. Balanced but concentrated weight causes shear.

Here you see an example of a ship that hogged to death.

Also, any buckling of the bottom plating caused either directly by contact during ground or excess stresses severely weaken the hull. The ship will have to be unloaded to reduce stresses before transportation on oceans.

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 62 · 2021-03-26 21:23:04

You design a ship to be supported by water.

The design case is hogging or sagging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogging_and_sagging
The design case is waves positioned for highest stress in both cases. Tugboat's example the wave height likely was significantly higher then the design case for long enough for fatigue to take control of the hull. Then you have a hull in pieces.

Grounding can easily create stresses not accounted in the design case. There is some risk of wrinkling the hull. Less risk of cracking the ship in half from a single event unless their are already undetected cracks.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 63 · 2021-03-26 21:31:39

Note that groundings in the canal are common. A similar ship grounded just 4 months ago and it was hardly an event.

https://www.fleetmon.com/maritime-news/2020/32089/...

It's not normal for ships to end up perpendicular. I'd be curious to see what the rudder position is at this moment.

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 64 · 2021-03-26 21:43:32

Introduction To Steel Shipbuilding by Baker, Elijah 1943 Page 229 explains that at the time the highest loads a ship incurred where when launching, first floating a ship, from an inclined shipway. No one does that with these very large ships, the launching loads would be too high.
Figure 91 , page 102 of this reference illustrates the wrinkling described by tugboat. Physics today is the same as 1943. We do not get to wave the rules due to inconvenience.
,

dik (Structural) · Answer 65 · 2021-03-26 21:59:42

Are the ships long enough and massive enough that Coriolis accelleration becomes an issue in their design?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

EdStainless (Materials) · Answer 66 · 2021-03-26 22:04:08

I presume that they are also pumping out the forward tanks to lighten the bow.
Steering gear failures are not unheard of.
The BBC report said that 2 pilots were on board. My guess is that one was just in transit.
Yes, it will limp out of the canal and then be off loaded, there is repair and survey work to be done before it carries cargo again. Insurance companies are so picky.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 67 · 2021-03-26 23:29:52

One of the reports indicated that high capacity pumps are needed to pump out the forward void space. That implies there is a hole somewhere in the bulb bow embedded in the sand.

CWB1 (Mechanical) · Answer 68 · 2021-03-26 23:38:14

Quote:
Possibly had a 12-year old boy at the helm
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/suez-canal-blocked-...

Quote:
This New York Post title states it clearly. . . . . . .
https://nypost.com/2021/03/24/cargo-ship-drew-peni...

As that perpetually immature, juvenile'ish guy that loves an overdone sex joke.....I find it amazing that multiple pages published such a dumb thought. I'm pretty sure I've seen more phallic drawings out of the preschoolers.

dik (Structural) · Answer 69 · 2021-03-27 00:57:47

Quote (The BBC report said that 2 pilots were on board. My guess is that one was just in transit.)

Maybe one was the Egyptian, that I understand is required...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

dik (Structural) · Answer 70 · 2021-03-27 01:00:02

Quote (That implies there is a hole somewhere in the bulb bow embedded in the sand.)

What is the purpose of the 'bulb bow'?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 71 · 2021-03-27 01:19:15

It creates destructive interference to counteract the transverse wake generated by the ship which saves fuel.

Here in San Francisco.Bay we require two pilots on ships this large. One is in the pilothouse and the other is on the bow of the ship.

dik (Structural) · Answer 72 · 2021-03-27 01:32:54

thanks...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

dik (Structural) · Answer 73 · 2021-03-27 01:36:07

I knew I shouldn't have asked... pipe

I just had to look the answer up... thank again, tugboat...

https://wikiwaves.org/Ship_Kelvin_Wake

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 74 · 2021-03-27 02:10:37

The Suez pilots like cruise ships, which are scarce at the moment. They come on for a free feed, so sometimes there are more than the required two. I think the main requirement for those pilots is agility for embarking and disembarking, so perhaps their seamanship is secondary.

dik (Structural) · Answer 75 · 2021-03-27 04:41:20

If they are responsible for piloting, then Egypt may be on the hook for some real damages.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 76 · 2021-03-27 05:55:21

If the pilot is determined to be at fault. I still think this is a mechanical fault. The angle of incidence is too perpendicular unless there was a second ship involved.

Check out how an improperly executed overtaking maneuver can doom the ship being passed. Though at 13 knots it's unlikely.the Given was being overtaken.

https://youtu.be/dq8EQVl7GG0

Also see the correct method, it's quite complicated.

https://youtu.be/3NqN_yNrR8Y

Port Revel is in France and they train pilots from everywhere in the world. Their channel is fascinating and a good way to kill a weekend.

https://youtube.com/c/PortRevel

Also, one of my coworkers.who excelled at ship handling early and is now a pilot suggested this video explaining pivot point and how ships turn. This is important to understand how the Given ended up perpendicular.

https://youtu.be/RuhETd0hTyU

I have to do some thinking on this, I'm not a ship handling expert, but.i believe the hydrodynamic forces created by a ship running close to a bank would tend to push the bow away and draw the stern in which is the opposite of what we see.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 77 · 2021-03-27 06:24:05

This graphic has been posted to show just how aground the ship is. The white is dredged channel, the blue is shallow water.

The pro mariners are still specultating about a loss of electrical power.

Positive news, the stern has been floated free. However, it seems the bow has been holed. More speculation is that cargo will need to be removed. Removing ballast to float the ship makes it dangerously unstable.

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 78 · 2021-03-27 07:21:38

There is no overtaking in the Suez Canal. It was bad luck that the grounding occurred in the single channel part of the canal. Further along, there are now northbound and southbound channels, which can be pressed into double duty.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 79 · 2021-03-27 07:58:47

Tug, that's a great find. I was wondering if the canal wasn't even sided as the stem seemed to sit lower and I saw a photo showing one ship behind it moored up against the bank.

But if the ship is billed that's a big blow for them. Haven't seen an update on the dredging work recently.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 80 · 2021-03-27 12:34:51

One of the Danish guys at works brother is over there now.

Apparently it was sand storm Low Viz.and they got hit by 50 knt gusts from a base of 15-20

The two ships behind them nearly collided and only weren't grounded due to being alot smaller.

They are going to try a collosal suction dredger to dig out round the front and back and then block flow in the middle so the current eats the banks.

Comcokid (Electrical) · Answer 81 · 2021-03-27 14:42:05

I know you civil engineering types intuitively understand what cut/fill means when you see the numbers. Maybe some of you have experience in doing this with dredges. The size comparisons in the link of the ship to the Eiffel Tower and Titanic work for me.

Quote:
"An unnamed Egyptian canal authority official told late on Thursday that they would need to remove between 15,000 to 20,000 cubic meters (530,000 to 706,000 cubic feet) of sand to reach a depth of 12 to 16 meters (39 to 52 feet). That depth is likely to allow the ship to float freely again, it said.

Link to information:
https://www.vesselfinder.com/news/20478-UPDATE-5-o...

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 82 · 2021-03-27 16:26:04

20,000 m3 is 8 Olympic size swimming pools
Length is 1.32 x Eiffel Tower

Latexman (Chemical) · Answer 83 · 2021-03-27 16:40:45

Does anyone foresee restrictions, or more severe restrictions, on these monster ships before they enter the Suez?

Good Luck,
Latexman

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 84 · 2021-03-27 17:48:28

Here's the latest satellite image of the entrance to the Suez Canal showing the ships that are starting to back-up:

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 85 · 2021-03-27 18:18:56

The brother sent this

https://youtu.be/tGXTrcQ5wm8

The dynamics of a big boat close in to the sides apparently is quiet involved.

JohnMcNutt (Industrial) · Answer 86 · 2021-03-27 18:40:00

Quote (Latexman)
Does anyone foresee restrictions, or more severe restrictions, on these monster ships before they enter the Suez?

One day while overlooking the Golden Gate, I saw a large tanker pass under into the Bay. It was being closely followed dead center by a large tug that appeared to be doing not much of anything. I speculate it was there to take immediate action if things got out of hand?

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 87 · 2021-03-27 19:04:13

And here's a segment by our old pilot friend Juan Browne:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLFmojnXtk0

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 88 · 2021-03-27 19:20:51

Anybody who knows where the direction value in VesselFinder coms from ?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 89 · 2021-03-27 20:01:26

Rather than restrict the size of ships which can use the Suez, I imagine there will be planning underway to extend the two channel system throughout. The Panama Canal now has two channels, one of which can take larger ships than the 'Panamax' ones the original channel caters for.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 90 · 2021-03-27 20:17:39

Seems they are trying to get it loos now..

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 91 · 2021-03-27 20:43:51

This appears to be the latest report (from less than 30 minutes ago) of the progress to free the ship:

Live Updates: Scramble Against Time to Free Ship Stuck in Suez Canal

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/03/27/world/suez...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

itsmoked (Electrical) · Answer 92 · 2021-03-27 21:03:31

Quote (Latex)
Does anyone foresee restrictions, or more severe restrictions, on these monster ships before they enter the Suez?

Sure. An easy one will be size verses wind gusts. Bigger ones will probably be required to wait for favorable weather conditions now.

I can't understand why ANY more ships would be piling up waiting. They already must be knowing it will take a month to get thru this mess then waiting to unload in the big rush at the other end. Pay the 7 or 8 day penalty of going around instead and still deliver faster. Odd.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 93 · 2021-03-27 21:12:03

I think the others are hoping they will pull it off tonight when the tide comes.

It seems they have taken a coffee brake now...

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 94 · 2021-03-27 21:16:26

Transiting the canal allows the ships to avoid the waters where the pirates operate. Besides, I suspect that a lot of owners won't pay the insurance for the around Cape of Good Hope passage.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 95 · 2021-03-27 21:17:48

They can apparently transit 100 vessels a day. It will take a week to clear the back log once they free it up.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

verymadmac (Mechanical) · Answer 96 · 2021-03-27 21:30:24

Oh well, when they widen this section to allow 2 lines, they will be able to build a giant berm as a wind break with the tailings.

I wonder how much heel angle it was subjected to when the gusts hit it.

If it can't keep its heading with a 50 knt cross wind, how does it go in a typhoon?

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 97 · 2021-03-27 21:31:07

McNutt, here in SF, all tank vessels with more than a certain volume of oil are required to have tug escort. The tug centerlead aft is there to act as brakes or steer the ship in the event of failure. With that said, studies have found tugs to be largely ineffective at steering ships at speeds above 6 knots. Puget Sound has adopted a lower speed limit as a result but other ports have not.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 98 · 2021-03-27 21:53:06

Well if it was a gust it must have come from the right side starboard side, because when you look at the video that Alistair posted one can see that he is going a bit to the left, but then the direction goes very fast to right like he is trying to compensate and then isn't fast enough to get the right heading back.
But I do not know where this direction value comes from ponder

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 99 · 2021-03-27 22:23:35

Quote (itsmoked)
can't understand why ANY more ships would be piling up waiting.

Some of the cargo ships are livestock ships they have a problem with geting water and feed to the animals, both if they are waiting but also if they are going around a guess.
Do not know what is worse.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 100 · 2021-03-27 22:27:48

Redsnake
The Class A AIS transponder reports position based on GNSS positions, Headings can be calculated from GNSS signals, or imported from external heading sensors.
USCG Info AUTOMATIC IDENTIFICATION SYSTEM OVERVIEW
These are the US regulations.
AIS REQUIREMENTS
The use of AIS transponders internationally was initially mandated by 2002 IMO SOLAS Agreement, the US regulations are similar to other nations implementations.

Fred

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 101 · 2021-03-28 05:12:18

There is an effect called bank suction and cushion which occurs apparently which accounts for the front going one way and the tail the other.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 102 · 2021-03-28 07:42:21

Thanks Alistair.
Like this.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 103 · 2021-03-28 08:33:42

Looks like the effect that the Danish brother was on about.

Just that the first yaw took it into the side.

There was other stuff about single engine and dual rudders and rudder authority with the power off.

The recovery if you get caught is apparently full power and full rudder oppersite direction or something like that. But it takes a lot of skill of the helmsman and quick reactions of the skipper to spot what's developing and the self confidence to order full ahead.

I am pretty clueless about big boats but it's been interesting reading the discussions on the handling of them. You can see why it takes years of training to qualify on them.

itsmoked (Electrical) · Answer 104 · 2021-03-28 11:44:56

Quote:
You can see why it takes years of training to qualify on them.

You can imagine there isn't a large pool of candidates...

"Hey Johnny, wanna come over and play Microsoft Ship Simulator?"

"Naw, I have to eat dinner in a couple of hours and I'd only get one docking maneuver in if you let me go first."

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 105 · 2021-03-28 11:46:25

Ships do not change heading immediately on a change of rudder angle. Recovering from a "bank encounter" requires counterintuitive helm commands (think - backing a trailer into a narrow space). The time and travel distance for a container ship to respond to a change in rudder angle makes over steering likely.
Turning Circle Diameter Trials for a Container ship
The example in the link is about 1/2 the size of the Ever Given, so the "advance" on rudder angle command is likely twice that shown. That would put advance ~~ 1NM (1852m).

The track plot Alister posted SUEZ CANAL Container ship Ever Given blocked Suez Canal Mar 24, 2021 Clearly shows the bank effect. At 1:51 the ship gets unstuck from the right side bank effect. Steering toward the right bank might have helped early, but as the ship started to approach the left bank the ship would need to steer toward the left bank to prevent the following swing across the canal.

Here is a larger scale of the track plot on the local chart Ship track MV EVER GIVEN grounded Blocked Suez Canal, and a model simulation.

waross (Electrical) · Answer 106 · 2021-03-28 13:08:16

With the costs involved in delays and in moving in a large craine, coupled with the time factor to unload by crane,
I would consider toppling a couple of hundred tonnes of containers off the ship.
A tug boat hitting the end of a slack line will easily topple several containers at a time.
Use a lifting helicopter to return the pulling line for another pull.
The saving in time will more than make up for any damage to the container contents.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 107 · 2021-03-28 13:48:18

When I was doing my degree they had 30 full time deck officer per year going through Glasgow nautical college. And 30 marine engineering. And the course was over subscribed. About 20% drop out for both.

And even 30 years ago they had a pretty impressive bridge simulator including fire and smoke.

I believe the current one moves as well.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 108 · 2021-03-28 14:47:04

They have managed to get the screw turning and rudders moving and water under the bow.

They can swing it now but there is huge lump of rock which the bow is catching on.

And there is a collosal argument on going about what to do next.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 109 · 2021-03-28 15:09:20

One cause of action would be to blow it up. bomb

If anyone is willing to take on the job

I am not shore what kind of stones they have in that region , everything seems to be sand not shore how hard sandstones are.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

dik (Structural) · Answer 110 · 2021-03-28 15:30:25

The only rock on the beach and guess who found it...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

miningman (Mining) · Answer 111 · 2021-03-28 16:38:33

Easy peasy!!!!! Conventional explosives might be a bit dramatic in the vicinity of a grounded ship but there is available a " smokeless powder" under different trade names . If memory serves the one I most recently used was called Dexpan. It works by physically expanding within the confines of a drilled hole , inducing quite large cracks in rock.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 112 · 2021-03-28 16:45:25

Shaped charges have been used to split a similarly sized ship in the past. Blowing it up is not an unreasonable option.

https://youtu.be/mFXEU85AyaI

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 113 · 2021-03-28 16:47:14

Snail dynamite lol

I am not shore if it would work under water though

You could dig the rock down! by sucking away the sand underneath

Depending om how large it is..
Both risky business.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 114 · 2021-03-28 16:51:52

TugboatEng
The map with the depth curves, where did you get it?
Would like to see what the canal depth looks like before the accident happened.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 115 · 2021-03-28 19:46:43

Various X-sections

PDFs
https://www.american-club.com/files/files/Suez_Can...
Canal website
https://www.suezcanal.gov.eg/English/About/SuezCan...
Dredges! Tugs, Cranes
https://www.suezcanal.gov.eg/English/Resources/Pag...
News
https://www.suezcanal.gov.eg/English/MediaCenter/N...

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 116 · 2021-03-28 20:19:55

It seems they are giving it a try again, now they have 2 big tugboats on each side total of 4, yesterday only 3.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 117 · 2021-03-28 21:10:31

Some of the ideas in this thread are absurd. Blowing up the ship or dumping containers in the water would just create a bigger problem, clearing the debris.

Those trapezoidal cross sections show a different picture than Tug's plan view above, but they are taken in the part of the canal to the north where there are two separate channels, so not applicable.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 118 · 2021-03-28 21:18:01

I would love to provide charts but they are very expensive.

dik (Structural) · Answer 119 · 2021-03-28 21:22:48

Quote (Blowing up the ship or dumping containers)

I can see unloading, and cutting the ship in two to make a 'gate' to allow traffic to flow as being a viable option... They can clean up the contained mess, later.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 120 · 2021-03-28 21:31:19

Well then Tud maybe you can explain this from navionics map?

I guess they are some electronic navigation beacons ?
They cant be seen on the satellite map so I guess they are on the bottom, maybe movable too?

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 121 · 2021-03-28 21:32:14

Baraka1 (Force <of Allah, as an omnipresent force, like The Force in Star Wars>)
Ezzat Adel (Righteous Power <of Allah>)
are the largest in Mideast 16,000Hp, 160T pull (each)
Mosaed (Good Man) 5400 Hp, 70T

I think the Misars are channel marker bouys

the other 2tugs
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2021-03...

Those are lighted buoys, shown on the pdf file
Red=Left port side of channel
Green= right starboard

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 122 · 2021-03-28 21:37:37

Hokie,

Open the pdf file!

247m between the buoys at km 154

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 123 · 2021-03-28 21:54:46

If there was a way to cut the ship up in place that would be faster than removing the material under the ship, the salvors would / are already be planning that as an option. Cleaning up the mess would probably need to be completed at least to the point where nothing would spread along the length of the canal, before traffic could resume, which could be very time consuming.

Pulling / skidding containers sideways requires first lifting the containers to unlatch the container dogs that tie containers in a vertical stack together.
Cargo Container Securing - Container Lashing Container Barge - Container Ship - Railroad IBC Container Twistlocks, Container Turnbuckles, Container Lashing Bars
It might be easier to pull an entire container stack over, but at 40 tons per container, you quickly start to create undesirable unbalanced loading on the ship.

dik (Structural) · Answer 124 · 2021-03-28 21:54:56

Do the tracking simulations actually show the location and orientation of the cargo ship in the canal, based on 'transponder' data, or whatever it is?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 125 · 2021-03-28 21:55:28

ALP GUARD
BOLLAND PULL 285 mt cont.
https://www.alpmaritime.com/fleet/alp-guard

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 126 · 2021-03-28 22:07:06

Alistairs link is from vesselfinder.com and that uses data from the ship I think its quite exact.
I am still not shore how the heading or bearing is calculated though or how the sensor measuring it works.

The simulation probable uses the same data but a bit more but I am not shore how correct the map is adjusted against the data.
In the simulation it looks like the ship is much closer to the banks at all times.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 127 · 2021-03-28 22:10:38

dik
GPS receivers can calculate direction of motion if the ship is moving.
Most gps receivers include a heading sensor, often a magnetic compass (as is used in most cellphones).
AIS systems use gps position, and can use external heading sensors, so they can get heading data from a gyrocompass or the ships navigation platform.
This link explains AIS with some more detail.

Automatic Identification System (AIS): Integrating and Identifying Marine Communication Channels

The US GPS system (Navstar) uses WGS84 ad the datum, as does Europe’s Galileo. I think the Russian and Chinese systems use a different datum. Basic accuracy with real time post processing using WAAS

.
A system similar to WAAS should be viable in the middle east.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 128 · 2021-03-28 22:15:46

Some super tankers have a fore and an aft GPS, but I think they only broadcast one position on AIS channel.

18kW = 24,000 Hp
Getting bigger.

dik (Structural) · Answer 129 · 2021-03-28 22:15:56

Thanks... are there transponders at the front and rear? so the orientation of the vessel can be determined?

Thanks 1503... you answered my question... with the Middle East, would there be continuous satellite viewing?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 130 · 2021-03-28 22:17:47

dik, the stern is free. If they cut the ship where it meets shallow water they can tow the stern away to open the canal and salvage the bow at leisure.

Experience has proven that you can cut a containerships in half and the stern will remain upright and stable.

Shaped charges have been used successfully to split ships in the past.

Red, I am not a navigator so I can't get specific. Any navigation beacon should not be movable. They would also not be on the bottom as that would make them invisible and difficult to transmit radio frequency from. The beacon may be something as small as a VHF antenna for radio direction finding so it wouldn't be visible from satellite. They could also be GPS antennas for differential GPS.

dik (Structural) · Answer 131 · 2021-03-28 22:19:59

I guess that will be the next subject of discussion... determining what to do... or they may have already decided a few days back...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 132 · 2021-03-28 22:27:08

My problem is that the small yellow arrow points in one direction the actual ship in another. and the bearing or true headinf´g as it says in the ASI where dose it come from rudder or ship direction ?

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 133 · 2021-03-28 22:34:12

The canal has been blocked a few times. The longest before this by a grounding was about 3 days. But the Egypt-Israel war kept it closed for 8 years from 1967 until 1975.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/the-suez-canal-...

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 134 · 2021-03-28 22:39:40

I can explain this. A ship has both a heading and a course over ground. A heading is the direction it's pointed and course over ground is the direction it's moving. For the AIS, the course over ground is sourced from the GPS. Heading for a ship this size would come come from the gyro compass though smaller vessels may use a satellite compass or magnetic flux sensor. AIS will show both to help visualize the drift of the vessel. The pointy arrow is COG and the longer ship shaped one is heading.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 135 · 2021-03-28 22:40:34

Tug in normal circumstances they would be on the surface, but the you should se them om the photos ponder

Not movable I am not shore about that it's a canal in the middle of an desert with sandstorm they can fill up with sand and if there isn't time to dredge it out they might need to move or adjust the buoys from time to time ponder

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 136 · 2021-03-28 22:42:22

Buoys are usually on mushroom anchors. They can be pulled up and replaced but the location of the buoy needs to be precise so they don't typically get moved around.

Answer 137

[Post Deleted]

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 138 · 2021-03-28 22:45:52

To answer the question about the location of the GPS antenna, it can be anywhere on the ship but it's position relative to centerlines is keyed in during commissioning so the AIS position shows the true center of the ship. The second GPS antenna on super large ships is used by the pilots only as a reference point during turns.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 139 · 2021-03-28 23:02:18

What's weird is that in the movie in Alistair's link, the degree changes back and forth quite a bit after the boat runs aground and stands still?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 140 · 2021-03-28 23:12:48

Dik, no live feed sats, but 8yrs ago I found there was an AntiAircraft feature here 29.7033N, 32.3646E so I had to adjust my pipeline route.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 141 · 2021-03-28 23:58:27

It appears the same ship was in another incident a bit over a year ago.

https://mobil.mopo.de/hamburg/frachter-rammt-faehr...

"According to initial reports, the steering gear should have failed. But that was later withdrawn. A machine failure can also be used as an explanation. However, there are many indications of unforeseen weather conditions."

Same story, different day. Perhaps the class does have a disfuncrional steering gear. Admitting a faulty gear would require shutting down the entire class until the condition can be repaired.

waross (Electrical) · Answer 142 · 2021-03-29 01:16:56

2019: "Ever Given" Collided with Berthed Ferry "Finkenwerder" in Hamburg

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 143 · 2021-03-29 01:45:57

AIS displays heading so the degree will fluctuate based on position error when the ship is not moving.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 144 · 2021-03-29 02:39:53

The following is pure speculation: An interesting thought, Alistair's video shows the grounding followed by the controlled stop of the Maersk Denver followed by the Asia Rose 3 careening out of control into the Denver. There is much talk about the Suez Canal adopting the Russian GLONASS system for satellite positioning. The Denver is a USA flagged ship and experienced no difficulties while two other ships did during the sand storm. Perhaps the GLONASS system has another outage that they seem prone to.

Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 145 · 2021-03-29 05:00:39

The word on the street is that the bow is free and it’s been refloated.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-5655990...

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 146 · 2021-03-29 05:04:40

Would have thought that they carry all the systems we certainly do on aircraft. Even my Nokia phone has all of them.

Reports are coming that they have managed to unstick the stern and pull it round into deeper water.

The Danish brother hasn't sent an update today.

georgeverghese (Chemical) · Answer 147 · 2021-03-29 05:37:01

RE: Suez Canal blocked by container ship

georgeverghese (Chemical) 29 Mar 21 05:37

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUwWcoIlHwM

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 148 · 2021-03-29 05:49:00

Eh, the only videos and images I can find still show the ship with a list meaning it's still stuck.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1376...

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 149 · 2021-03-29 05:51:17

Oh and the Denver is skippered by a guy called Craig and apparently he spotted the poo was about to hit the fan on the first corner and had overridden the pilot and started taking appropriate action. Which might explain the relatively controlled stop by it.

The Danish brother did say if it wasn't for the Denver it could have been alot worse.

The pilot/ Egyptian transit crew that was on board evergreen had a not very good reputation.

The radio chat I suspect would be interesting to hear. Don't have a clue what lingo it's done in or if the Rose knew something was developing ahead.

The front end is still stuck just the back end has been pulled away from the bank. They are checking the prop and rudders and if they are ok can use them next high tide to try and get the front off.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 150 · 2021-03-29 06:04:49

I don't trust anything being reported as I think there is a lot of coverup happening right now. I still believe the ship is very much stuck despite the stern being free. In fact, the stern was reported free days ago. I believe the truth is that the front 1/3+ of the ship is hard around and the forepeak and thruster rooms are both flooded. They may have moved the stern a few feet today but that was merely theatrical, it was already free.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 151 · 2021-03-29 06:30:20

I also presume that most of the public releases are face saving BS.

The brother hasn't mentioned any flooding. And haven't seen anything to indicate huge volumes of water being pumped out.

Do modern container ships have double hulls or is that only tanker's?

waross (Electrical) · Answer 152 · 2021-03-29 06:50:47

Recent report suggest that it may be sitting on a rock. If so, there may well be holed compartments.
Is it free?
I'll wait for pictures.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 153 · 2021-03-29 07:00:17

There is definitely a rock involved.

Any luck once the rudder and props are checked out they can drag it backwards.

I don't think the actually care if they do hole it while extracting it or damage anything else. As long as they can get it out the canal out the way.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 154 · 2021-03-29 07:06:04

Next high tide is at 11:42am local

Current time is 09:04

They are going to give it another shot then apparently.

Currently ballasting to the rear to try and lift the nose up.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 155 · 2021-03-29 07:26:50

Looks like it's parked on the shallow side.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 156 · 2021-03-29 07:27:36

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/29/suez...

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 157 · 2021-03-29 07:33:45

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 158 · 2021-03-29 07:50:30

Ever Given still in place, a bit of rotation off of the west bank. Tugs are working. March 29 7:46 GMT

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 159 · 2021-03-29 07:59:53

From reccy mech experience you usually try and pull things out the same way as they went in.

Maybe they got it swinging then angled it for the path it went in at or least suction.

Or give enough water behind for the prop to bite.

I reckon you right though and it's sitting on top of a big rock. Wouldn't have thought there are any nearby dry docks to fix it.

georgeverghese (Chemical) · Answer 160 · 2021-03-29 08:45:37

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UNbvO5U700

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 161 · 2021-03-29 09:09:02

After pushing into this much sand I will be really surprised if the bulbous bow is not a bit crumpled. It may look a bit like a battering ram, but it is really just designed for hydraulic loading. However as long as watertight integrity to the rest of the ship is not compromised, once the ship is floating, damage to the bow will not hinder it's ability to get to a location where repairs can be performed. As large as this ship is, there are very few locations having drydocks where this repair could be performed. It is likely that at least part of the repair will be performed with the ship afloat, ballasted to get the bow as high out of the water as is safe (from a stability standpoint).

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 162 · 2021-03-29 10:34:01

The Dane is saying Netherlands or Japan is about the only place they can get it into dry dock.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 163 · 2021-03-29 12:47:16

Latest report on the news is that the wind has blown it back across the channel again!

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 164 · 2021-03-29 13:18:41

It must be hellish trying to control something that size in the wind.

Suez is showing Northerly at 17 knts.

Which even for a Scotsman is a reasonabl breeze.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 165 · 2021-03-29 13:28:52

And the AIS is showing it now mid Channel pointing north...

And now underway doing 4 knts.

Be interesting to see the state of it's bow.

thebard3 (Computer) · Answer 166 · 2021-03-29 14:07:21

Twitter feed showing it's free and moving now.

https://twitter.com/rafsanchez/status/137652045742...

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 167 · 2021-03-29 14:12:34

Seems to be moving now ok.

Wonder if they'll ever let it back in again....

The canal navigation document is interesting in that in that section the dredged width to 22.5m is only 137m wide. It gets much bigger elsewhere, but give this thing is 60m wide, it shows you how little room there is to manoeuvre. Also it gives the convoy speed at 16km/hr - about 8.5 knots so if was doing 13kts at the time of the grounding it was going much faster than it should have been.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 168 · 2021-03-29 14:45:57

The speed is maybe explained by the recovery from bank effect requiring full power to give rudder authority.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 169 · 2021-03-29 14:50:45

Well, they did it.

Alistair, modern ships are all double bottomed but only tankers are double hulled.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 170 · 2021-03-29 14:56:54

Save others googling the difference

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_hull

Thanks for info couldn't work out what it had.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 171 · 2021-03-29 15:17:43

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

waross (Electrical) · Answer 172 · 2021-03-29 16:33:33

Re the speed:
There was a report that the following ship realized that the Ever Given was in trouble and was slowing even before the 'Given hit the bank.
Apparently the second ship following was not as quick to react and collided with the following ship.
Ships don't pass in the canal, and the 'Given was not overtaking ships.
The speed was most likely the normal traffic speed on that day.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

dik (Structural) · Answer 173 · 2021-03-29 17:01:22

I assume the damage is slight... will it travel to the next port/destination and do an inspection.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 174 · 2021-03-29 17:34:40

Seems Craig the skipper on the Denver the boat behind is due a fortune by everyone it was a swearing match on the bridge when he took control off the pilot. I doubt anything will be made public on what happened.

It can't be that badly damaged as its on its own and still routed the Rotterdam which is where the dry dock is.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 175 · 2021-03-29 17:40:00

One hour ago it was still waiting in the Great bitter lake.
I guess they are doing an first inspection there.
And also letting the waiting ships pass before letting the Ever Given continuing to the Mediterranean.
Especially if there still is strong winds.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 176 · 2021-03-29 18:20:46

Is the restart of the passage of ships going to be based on the order that they arrived. I know that the ships already in the channel will be given priority, but what about the ones that have been backing-up in the estuary? Will there be some attempt to prioritize which ships are given the go-ahead? What I'm thinking of are the ships hauling livestock, and maybe even some whose owners have more influence with the people running the canal than others.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 177 · 2021-03-29 18:58:10

if its anything like my industry there will be zero logic.

They will have all been given a slot time and they will be taken in that order.

Although I am pretty sure they will be a market for bribes and buying slots

Animals suffering or food going off will not enter into the equation it will just be a insurance claim.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 178 · 2021-03-29 19:37:03

Right now it seems they are taking trough 5-6 livestock ships then comes 6-10 cargo ships and after that 8-10 chemical/oil ships.
Most of the livestock ships are going to Jordan and Egypt and Saudi.
Money? no money? who knows

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 179 · 2021-03-29 19:45:37

The Dane has just updated.

Most of us could retire on what he has just earned.

Brute force and screw it the hull is already written off and if we can shift it inside 7 days we make an utter fortune won out.

They have done some major damage to the tugs and pull points on the boat. But the hull is sound which has surprised everyone they expect it to self power to Rotterdam then it might not even need dry dock.

They are all off to Cyprus to get very drunk the brother that I work with has been told to work out real estate investments in the Baltics.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 180 · 2021-03-29 19:50:22

Starting with southbound clearing the bittern lakes and feeding the lakes with another batch.

The EG is at anchor in the bittern lakes.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Fischstabchen (Electrical) · Answer 181 · 2021-03-29 20:11:25

Can someone explain to me what there weren't contingency plans for an event like this? Or are there? I am really confused as how important the canal is to shipping that everything stopped for almost a week. Wars are fought over control of the canal.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 182 · 2021-03-29 20:21:08

Apparently safety shear pins were replaced by concrete Re bars and they went for it with the scope that the tugs were written off. The US navy contingent wanted to use bang both ends. One load on the bottom to drop the back the other to blow the rock (the dutchies told them to foxtrot oscar)

Quiet looking forward to the next time he is in the Kiwi bar to hear what actually went on.

Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 183 · 2021-03-29 20:21:23

Short of putting in a second canal running parallel to this one, what possible contingency plan could they have in place?

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 184 · 2021-03-29 20:30:37

they are trying to do that and there is a lot of political issues over it.

The USA is trying to prevent it. Global politics

dik (Structural) · Answer 185 · 2021-03-29 20:31:14

Waiting for the book to come out...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 186 · 2021-03-29 20:31:57

Tugboat escorts for ships over a certain size would be the obvious answer but a 6 knot speed limit would be required for that case.

Alistair, there are no shear safety pins on towing gear and tugs are typically rates to operate at 100% capacity. Towing gear on ocean going vessels usually has a safety factor of 3. Damage to the ship is quite possible, though.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 187 · 2021-03-29 20:35:15

If even 10% of the chat of aviation or the marine guys ever goes public it will be horrendous. By the sounds of it the marine guys get away with murder being miles way from shore and only working in 2D and they can just stop most of the time.

I have seen pictures of wraps of rebars through holes in hook couples I might not be using the right terminology. But there is a pin through the hook couple that will fail before the thing rips out the deck, That calibrated pin is gone on the release. It was a bundle of rebar.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 188 · 2021-03-29 20:45:52

I really don't claim to have any special knowledge personally, I am just getting pictures and updates off a unlimited master qualified Danish skipper that deals with international salvage that's also Rotterdam qualified pilot.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 189 · 2021-03-29 20:52:26

he is also an ex Danish EOD clearance diver aged 55 but stopped swimming 20 years ago.

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 190 · 2021-03-29 20:58:39

Suez Canal North and South Ship Traffic for 9 Days During the Crisis

EVER GIVEN Suez Canal Traffic Recovery 24h Live Tracking Stream by FleetMon

Giant Suez Canal ship freed | DW News

The time constrained drama is mostly over. thumbsup2

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 191 · 2021-03-29 21:48:31

Alistair, If there was anything like you describe it can only be that they were trying some shock tactics by driving the tugs fast in a slack line so generating shock loading.

Just steady pulling wouldn't generate enough force.

Any thoughts Tug?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 192 · 2021-03-30 02:08:57

The ship has too much inertia. There is nothing to gain by shocking it, just broken gear. I spent an hour swinging my 25lb hammer to try to push a 200lb pin out of our crane the other week. I finally gave up and rigged up the jack. The pin pushed out with only 10 tons. The 25lb hammer easily achieves that force but could not overcome the inertia.

SwinnyGG (Mechanical) · Answer 193 · 2021-03-30 03:13:00

Are you saying then that the static line pull from the tugs is enough to tear up all the gear?

I know nothing about these systems, but for a relatively modern ship design of that size it would come as a surprise to me if any old tug could just hook up and start ripping parts of the ship off.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 194 · 2021-03-30 03:23:04

The tug's gear should be able to withstand it's static line pull with a safety factor of 3.

Modern ships are built to be cheap. Class society rules make it difficult to operate ships that are over 30 years of age so they have to be disposable.

The only strong attachment points on are modern ships are the anchor windlasses. All other bits are intended for mooring and are sized accordingly. The maximum rating is usually 100 ton (coincidentally we operate the most powerful ship assist tug on the USA west coast at 96 tons on a straight pull). Only tankers over a certain size will get a "super bit" on their stern. These require a 10ft eye so we keep a special strap for when we need to attach to super bits.

waross (Electrical) · Answer 195 · 2021-03-30 03:29:08

If the ship went up on a rock, the rock likely punctured some compartments. That would explain the difficulty in freeing the ship.
The rock would have been stuck in the hole that it made and it would not be a matter of simple friction.
Either the rock would have to be moved, and if it was large enough to seriously compromise a ship of that size, it would not move easily.
The other option would be for the rock to rip through plating and do more damage.
Either way a lot more force would be needed to free the ship than if it were just buried in the mud and sand.
There were some reports of flooding in some forward compartments, that would be consistent with the rock puncturing the hull.

Tug, inertia or sticktion?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 196 · 2021-03-30 05:50:11

According to Alistairs inside report But the hull is sound which has surprised everyone they expect it to self power to Rotterdam then it might not even need dry dock.
As I sade before I am not shore what kinds of rocks they have in that region but if it was something like a sand or limestone.
It would not be the same as hitting a granit boulder or even worse a lava one.
I would think that the keel would have made a groove in the rock and they could not back the ship out since the stern was against the canal wall, they hade to twist the ship and the boulder getting it of, or sucking the sand under the boulder away lowering it. ponder

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 197 · 2021-03-30 06:52:02

Interested in Alistair's comment above about the US opposing the completion of the double laneing of the canal. Any source for that?

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 198 · 2021-03-30 09:37:03

Nothing from my internet search suggested even the smallest clue. I did find some indication that current shipping projections would not support the economics of the $10B project cost, but that was all I found.

The only reason I can imagine is that it might tend to lower the price of LNG and maybe a number of other things in Europe, thereby making US goods less competitive there. But that might make US goods more competitive in South and East Asia. Since that balances more or less, its LNG, and, or military concerns. ???

Are you a potential captain?
Run the canal game

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 199 · 2021-03-30 14:53:42

Waross, if it was strictly inertia, any amount of pull would eventually get it moving so there certainly had to be some stiction involved.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 200 · 2021-03-30 15:06:09

Tug
The ALP GUARD has
BOLLAND PULL 285 mt cont.
I guess cont. is continues
But was is mt ?
milli Ton
or milion Ton ????
What does it mean??

https://www.alpmaritime.com/fleet/alp-guard

Best Regards

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 201 · 2021-03-30 15:13:34

Can't find where I saw that one about the US opposing . It was something to do with panama canal loosing traffic. But could also have been about how they were going to finance it.

Oh remember now it was to do with oil and having two way through it would increase the flow to Europe of LPG from none US sources.

thebard3 (Computer) · Answer 202 · 2021-03-30 15:25:52

RedSnake--
I believe MT= metric tonne.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 203 · 2021-03-30 15:40:05

Okey so the tugboat ALP GUARD hade a straight pull of 258 tons ?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 204 · 2021-03-30 15:56:28

Yes, we call that a bollard pull. After construction the vessel gets attached to a bollard and pulls for all it's got with a dynamometer installed in the line. Those anchor handling tugs have controllable pitch propeller and big engines so they can make big numbers on their bollard pulls.

waross (Electrical) · Answer 205 · 2021-03-30 16:03:23

Sticktion or static friction must be overcome.

Quote (Tug)
Waross, if it was strictly inertia, any amount of pull would eventually get it moving so there certainly had to be some stiction involved.

Hence my question about your hammer and several tons of stiction.
In the case of the 'Given, most likely the ship rode up on the rock (Sticktion) and then the weight supported by the rock became more than the bottom could support and the the bottom plates failed.
Then the rock was inserted into the hull and formed a key, or dog.
Neither sticktion nor inertia but a mechanical interlocking.
By the way, swinging the stern would have broken the stiction.
This technique has been known by horse loggers for a couple of hundred years.
When the horse could not start a log moving, the logger would take a side pull to break stiction.
Once the log started to move sideways the horse could usually keep it moving.
But this is speculation.
There may be more information to come, and the ship may have been pivoting on the rock with no interlocking.
Is it reasonable that the rock could be supporting so much weight that it was that difficult to pull off and yet do no damage to the hull?
I don't know.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 206 · 2021-03-30 16:07:53

Remember the picture I posted of the canal depth. A full third of the ship was in shallow water. There was certainly a lot of stiction involved. A dredge was brought in to dig out the bow. 20,000 m³ of dirt was removed to free the ship.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 207 · 2021-03-30 16:38:56

Sometimes you have to wait for the stars to align:

How a Supermoon Helped Free the Giant Container Ship From the Suez Canal

Stronger tidal effect made it easier to partially float the Ever Given but also gave engineers a hard deadline

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-a-supermoon-helpe...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

dik (Structural) · Answer 208 · 2021-03-30 17:07:40

Is stiction the 'suction' force exerted to resist removal? or is it the actual bearing. I can see if the rock was embedded in the hull it would act as a giant keyway.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

miningman (Mining) · Answer 209 · 2021-03-30 18:21:19

Everyone here seems to assume the rock was a boulder. What if it was localazed bedrock??? How does that change all the previous assumptions?? One of the previously posted sections could support my hypothesis

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 210 · 2021-03-30 18:52:06

Seems that is still is just sand and limestone..

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

waross (Electrical) · Answer 211 · 2021-03-30 19:10:48

The logs were generally lying a full 3/3 on the ground.
The old horse loggers knew that it was easier to start the end of the log moving sideways to break the static friction and so start the log moving.
That they were able to move the stern 80 degrees but were not able to pull the ship backwards *strongly suggests that the rock or bedrock was acting as a key.
*"strongly suggests", not 100 percent but a high percentage of probability.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

LionelHutz (Electrical) · Answer 212 · 2021-03-30 20:01:55

I'm finding it hard to believe there was a large hard pointy rock that poked through the bottom of the ship and keyed it in place. The amount the bow was into the sand and on top of sand was enough to still hold it, even when the stern could move.

SwinnyGG (Mechanical) · Answer 213 · 2021-03-30 21:19:43

Quote (Waross)
That they were able to move the stern 80 degrees but were not able to pull the ship backwards *strongly suggests that the rock or bedrock was acting as a key.
*"strongly suggests", not 100 percent but a high percentage of probability.

I don't think so.

I think until you dig into it, we (me included) just aren't used to thinking on the scale of the forces involved in moving a ship of this magnitude.

Look at it this way.... the Ever Given weighs 200,000 tons. Two hundred thousand tons. 400,000,000 pounds.

If even 10% of the tonnage of the ship (and I bet it was more than that) is bearing on wet saturated sand, the friction force alone to pull the ship out is 15,000 tons and change.

That means that if you were to just yank it out with tugs straight back, you'd need the full capacity of 38 of the most powerful tugs in the world. (Google says the most powerful tug is ~400 tons) And that doesn't even include any force due to suction, which I don't know how to calculate but I'd imagine is huge on the large area which was contacting the sand. Or the significant inertia of a 200,000 ton load which you have to overcome to get the thing moving.

The forces are gargantuan, no pointy rock required.

WKTaylor (Aeronautics) · Answer 214 · 2021-03-30 21:55:04

With the blocking of the Suez canal by a container ship for over 6-days a sense of panic is arising in the maritime community

I have a military mind. Sadly the moment I saw that gigantic container ship stuck sideways, all I could think-of was the likely on-set of a catastrophic sabotage plot.

I could visualize a single jet dropping 2-#2000 bombs mid-ship... or heavy cruise-missiles or anti-ship missiles... screaming-in and blasting the ship in-half or thirds. Based on current experience, cleaning-out the debris [containers] and cutting-up the ship would take at least 4-years. Something like this might even require re-routing [digging] the canal AROUND the blockage and closing that section off indefinitely.

This should be a wake-up call for every major and minor country that relies on canals or waterways or bays [with necked entry water-ways] for an economic lifeline... and have giant container/cargo ships passing each other.

Mapping the World’s Key Maritime Choke Points https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapping-the-world...

In my minds eye, I saw these oceanic choke-points but also saw many other water-way choke-points, thus...

Suez canal.
Panama canal.
Gibraltar.
Gulf of Aqaba.
Strait of Hormuz.
Entrance to the Red Sea.

St Lawrence River [into the Great-Lakes].
Mississippi River.
Missouri River.
Ohio River.
Hudson River.
Delaware River
Columbia River.
Sacramento River.
San Francisco Bay.
Arkansas River.
Rhine River.
Volga River.
Mekong River.
Ganges River.
Yangtze River.
Nile River.

To name a few of the biggies...

Regards, Wil Taylor
o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]

Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 215 · 2021-03-30 22:34:01

Quote (WKTaylor)
I have a military mind. Sadly the moment I saw that gigantic container ship stuck sideways, all I could think-of was the likely on-set of a catastrophic sabotage plot.

I could visualize a single jet dropping 2-#2000 bombs mid-ship... or heavy cruise-missiles or anti-ship missiles... screaming-in and blasting the ship in-half or thirds. Based on current experience, cleaning-out the debris [containers] and cutting-up the ship would take at least 4-years. Something like this might even require re-routing [digging] the canal AROUND the blockage and closing that section off indefinitely.

I mean... once you’re adding #2000 bombs and cruise missiles into the equation... does it really matter if the ship is stuck at that point? Just sayin’.

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 216 · 2021-03-30 22:35:32

Yes, the 'rock' was a furphy, a figment of someone's imagination. Ever been through the Suez? There is nothing but sand.

Then we had folks on this very site advocating for blowing the ship in place, or dumping the cargo in the canal.

Ludicrous, and some of these folks are the same ones who insist on 'following the science' in other respects.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 217 · 2021-03-30 23:04:13

Here's a few more to worry about. Sweet dreams.

Malaca Strait!
Danish Strait!
English Channel!
Houston Ship Channel!
Dardenalles Strait (Bosporus)!
Sunda Strait! (Java)
Amazon River
Rio de la Plata (Buenos Aries)
Strait of Meagellan & Punta Arenas Channel
Yellow River
Los Angeles Harbor?
San Francisco?
San Jaun de Fuca?

Actually there are some high cliffs to the west of Suez. Finding a rock isn't totally impossible.

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 218 · 2021-03-30 23:09:46

And in this part of the world, Singapore, all of the South China Sea, Taiwan Strait, Sydney Harbour, Port of Busan, Port of Yokohama...the list goes on.

Lou Scannon (Automotive) · Answer 219 · 2021-03-30 23:59:53

...and then, there's the breaching of dams (tried and true war tactic)

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 220 · 2021-03-31 00:07:12

Quote (hokie66)
Then we had folks on this very site advocating for blowing the ship in place, or dumping the cargo in the canal.

Ludicrous, and some of these folks are the same ones who insist on 'following the science' in other respects.

You and I must be looking at different threads.

I did see some people with practical experience on this matter suggesting that the reporting of the incident wasn’t honest and that the situation was much more dire than it turned out to be. Yeah, they had suggested off-loading the ship and/or cutting it in half. But not a whole lot of talk otherwise of “blowing” the ship in place or wholesale “dumping” of the cargo in the canal.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 221 · 2021-03-31 07:15:25

I did suggest a nuclear option, but not seriously.

The ship's black box is reportedly on the way to be analyzed by US NTSB.

verymadmac (Mechanical) · Answer 222 · 2021-03-31 07:23:28

Quote (WKTaylor)
I have a military mind. Sadly the moment I saw that gigantic container ship stuck sideways, all I could think-of was the likely on-set of a catastrophic sabotage plot.

I could visualize a single jet dropping 2-#2000 bombs mid-ship... or heavy cruise-missiles or anti-ship missiles... screaming-in and blasting the ship in-half or thirds. Based on current experience, cleaning-out the debris [containers] and cutting-up the ship would take at least 4-years. Something like this might even require re-routing [digging] the canal AROUND the blockage and closing that section off indefinitely.

This should be a wake-up call for every major and minor country that relies on canals or waterways or bays [with necked entry water-ways] for an economic lifeline... and have giant container/cargo ships passing each other.

Why use explosives that requires a degree of air superiority and is relatively overt, a software hack might not be. A software hack did cross my mind when it a first appeared to be an uncommanded turn. At a guess if all the systems are centrally computer control one could have made it rollover and ground at the same time (one big bit could be harder to remove than lots of little bits). Just think of all those vessels built in the PRC.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 223 · 2021-03-31 07:24:07

The rock was compacted sand which would brake up if you soaked it in water for a day. It would break up in lumps but if you worked it with your hands it would turn into sand again.

The tug with the RE bar instead of a shear pin is a hook puller not a bollard pull. Its so they don't need anyone to catch the hawsers they just lower the hawser down into the hook jaw mouth and then it gets hydraulically closed then when they want to drop it they open the jaw and its released. The salvage guys like them apparently because if things get exciting they can hit the release and get out the way quickly

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 224 · 2021-03-31 07:54:40

So then it is more likely that the keel hade cut into the sandstone, as when you fasten an ax in a chopping block.

And to get it loos it was more like, trying to unscrew a loctited screw with an oversized screwdriver until the groove in the screw was broken?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

bones206 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 225 · 2021-03-31 09:00:58

Quote (bones206)
I heard with the polar ice cap melting, a new northern route may open up that is shorter than using the Suez. Perhaps we just wait. Shouldn't be much longer now...

Seems Russia smelled a marketing opportunity and is promoting the Northern Sea Route as THE alternative to the Suez. It's not hard to envision the geopolitical implications of a major shipping route controlled by Russia, let alone the impact to the environment. It seems to me that Russia is the big winner out of all this - besides The Dane of course wink

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russia-suez-t...

Quote (WaPo)

MOSCOW — Russian officials are seizing on the Suez Canal blockage saga to promote its Northern Sea Route, an ambitious infrastructure plan being pushed by President Vladimir Putin that aims to capitalize on the polar ice melt from global warming by opening up Arctic shipping and development.

Russia’s Energy Ministry said Monday that the days-long blockage of the canal by Rotterdam-bound Ever Given — a drama that is finally winding down as the ship began moving again — showed that its Northern Sea Route (NSR) and gas and oil pipelines were reliable, secure and competitive “in comparison to alternative routes.”
...
As Suez traffic choked to a halt last week, Russian officials were busy promoting the NSR.

Nikolai Korchunov, Russia’s envoy for international cooperation in the Arctic, said Friday that the Suez Canal blockage should press the world to look at the NSR as an alternative.

“The incident in the Suez Canal should make everyone think about diversifying strategic sea routes amid the increasing scope of sea shipping,” he said. Korchunov added that there was “no alternative” to the NSR.

In 2018, Putin decreed that cargo traffic along the route should be sharply increased — to 80 million tons by 2024. Cargo volumes reached 30 million tons by the end of 2019 and 32 million tons last year, according to the state nuclear corporation Rosatom.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 226 · 2021-03-31 10:30:04

That might work for the East Asia / Atlantic/EU trade, but the Northwest Passage looks better for East Asia / North America. Not going to do much for any other routes, No way will it replace Persian Gulf / EU/India/Africa routes.. There have been investors looking at building a port in Hudson Bay for years now, in anticipation of more ice free waters.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 227 · 2021-03-31 11:09:30

https://youtu.be/oWF7A9Ujr3w

Seems they have just ordered another 20 of these ships.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 228 · 2021-03-31 11:31:16

If you look back at the survey drawing tug posted on the 27th March, it seems this section of the canal has the main channel offset to the west, but there are several what appear to be deep cone shaped sections where my guess is the suction dredgers have been able to suck out sand and loose gravel etc, but left a number of what might be harder sandstone or maybe even just clay and sand pillars which had been mentioned.

These vessels are essentially flat bottomed so it would appear that the vessel rode over one of the humps and didn't stop until the nose ran into the bank.

Then with the nose now out of the water by a number of metres you have a large area of softish sand / clay / soft rock underneath the vessel some distance from the bow stopping it moving due the huge weight of the vessel and its cargo.

So excavating some of the material helped, but in the main the rear shift sideways pivoting the vessel on this harder lump was the key, a bit of rear ballast apparently once the rear got free, but not enough to snap it, and then a high tide and some associated higher currents and some almighty ocean going tugs and off it slid.

Will be interesting to see if the bow thrusters were operational.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 229 · 2021-03-31 11:39:20

Interesting interview with the Boskalis CEO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW7TLcs5XXQ

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 230 · 2021-03-31 11:43:21

By all accounts on these big boats the thrusters are pretty much useless at anything over 0.5 knts. And even then if the wind is coming from the wrong direction the boat will be blown sideways and they won't stop it.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 231 · 2021-03-31 14:27:42

Allistair, the unique feature of an anchor handling winch is having multiple drums on the winch. One drum to haul the anchor and one drum to tow the oil rig. This rebar story is bogus. All towing gear is high strength steel (improved or extra improved plow steel) which rebar is not.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 232 · 2021-03-31 15:01:16

this isn't a winch its a bloody great hook Its on the tug not the boat. It slides around 180 degs left to right on a track. The salvage master can dump the hawser under full load with no input from the vessel being salvaged. Press a button and bang and its gone.

It looks like this but about 5 times bigger.

And a promo video of the concept.

https://youtu.be/P7Rgm-XjOf0

dik (Structural) · Answer 233 · 2021-03-31 15:28:54

Quote (It's not hard to envision the geopolitical implications of a major shipping route controlled by Russia)

Not much different than the ones already in existance... politics ofter softens when there's a buck to be made.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 234 · 2021-03-31 15:48:03

it also hardens up as well when LPG exports are concerned. AKA Nordstream 2 is stirring up again as it get nearer to completion.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 235 · 2021-03-31 16:22:50

Nordstream II has been 95% complete, but dead in the water for over a year. Work stopped when USA authorised use of sanctions on all companies participating in any way on the project, even the German harbor that some of the previous contractors were using to support their operations. Only some 100km remain to be completed. The USA sat by doing nothing, except spouting the usual threat of sanctions, while Russia moved into Ukraine, then all of a sudden, and entirely coincidently I'm sure, with the advent of US LNG export capacity, sanctions became imperative and all work stopped.

bones206 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 236 · 2021-03-31 16:45:26

Here's an article written a few days before the ship got stuck, for anyone interested: Geopolitical Implications of New Arctic Shipping Lanes

I'm also halfway through the book "2034:A Novel of the Next World War", so my worldview is a bit paranoid at the moment!

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 237 · 2021-03-31 16:58:10

I'm sure you will find some interesting reading here, esp if you like paranoid adventures.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=geopolitical+pipelines&a...

dik (Structural) · Answer 238 · 2021-03-31 17:12:26

bones... good article.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

zeusfaber (Military) · Answer 239 · 2021-03-31 17:57:55

Quote (WKTaylor)
This should be a wake-up call for every major and minor country that relies on canals or waterways or bays [with necked entry water-ways] for an economic lifeline...

Believe me, it's been on the agenda for a very long time. A lot of time, effort, money, political will and cooperative military effort goes into ensuring freedom of passage through, for instance, Hormuz and the Bab al Mendeb.

A.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 240 · 2021-03-31 18:01:24

I thought there is a russian pipe laying barge finishing it?

There is definitely something in the area working.

Use the AIS tracking and search for Fortuna russian registered.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 241 · 2021-03-31 18:10:40

Nobody finds it ironic that Russia marched into Ukraine under Obama's watch, had their Nord Stream 2 project halted under Trump due to sanctions targeting contractors, and are now gearing up for completion under Biden?

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 242 · 2021-03-31 18:29:06

Err they started laying pipe in 2018 and put down 1100 km of it.

And they were gearing up for completion October last year.

Germany's energy plan hinges on it being complete. Short of starting ww3 blowing it up I can't see it being stopped.

The end game started 12 months ago.

dik (Structural) · Answer 243 · 2021-03-31 18:44:53

Quote (Nobody finds it ironic that Russia marched into Ukraine under Obama's watch, had their Nord Stream 2 project halted under Trump due to sanctions targeting contractors, and are now gearing up for completion under Biden?)

It's all politics... The alcohol impared Russian leader, stupidly, let the Ukraine have Crimea... a key strategic 'spot' and the residents of Crimea did not want to be part of the corrupt Ukraine, and decided 'on their own' that they wanted to be free. Depends on how you 'spin it'. As far as sanctions go... it was the sanctions that the US placed on Japan, a while back, that...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 244 · 2021-03-31 18:55:32

I am not shore who would befit by the Northern Sea Route If there isn't container ships stuck in the Suez canal, you can have icebergs, ice blockage, ice stormy seas.
All routs have there problems, you might need a combined tugs and icebreakers.
I think, I would rather bee stuck in the Suez canal then in the Arctic Ocean.
I am not even shore it is closer for anyone. ponder

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 245 · 2021-03-31 19:16:58

Have a Google for great circle navigation and Mercator charts.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 246 · 2021-03-31 19:22:20

You certainly will see no advantages to any polar route looking at a Mercator projection map.

Yes, you are right. The Fortuna is working. I didnt know that. I also thought that no harbors were openly cooperating, so they must be going very slowly if they are getting their pipe and consumables barged to them from a Russian port. Last I heard was that Germany was complaining, but complying with US demands.

bones206 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 247 · 2021-03-31 19:28:25

RE: Suez Canal blocked by container ship

bones206 (Civil/Environmental) 31 Mar 21 19:28

Here is a good visual of the routes:

SwinnyGG (Mechanical) · Answer 248 · 2021-03-31 19:30:11

Quote (RedSnake)
I am not even shore it is closer for anyone.

The earth ain't flat... the potential impact of a shipping lane opening year round through the arctic is huge.

One of these routes is WAY shorter than the other... hint, it's the green one.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 249 · 2021-03-31 20:25:28

Okay what you mean is that, if you are going by ship from China or Vladivostok to "England" it is.
I guess for the rest it's still longer.

Not much traffic from Vladivostok by the way.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

SwinnyGG (Mechanical) · Answer 250 · 2021-03-31 20:38:49

You're right, shortening shipping routes from Chinese ports doesn't mean much. That only accounts for 7 of the 10 largest ports in the world by tonnage per year.

Kuhladula (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 251 · 2021-03-31 20:40:08

Here is an interesting article from 2018 after the Maersk Venta completed the northern sea route. I remember following it heavily during my civil environmental courses because of the benefits it can bring for shipping route distances.

https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/venta-m...

dik (Structural) · Answer 252 · 2021-03-31 20:53:23

Quote (hint, it's the green one.)

...and in going to the states, the Canadian northwest passage offers a much shorter route, too...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 253 · 2021-03-31 21:16:19

More from Chief MAKOi
NEW YORK Suez Canal Resumed Operations : What Will Happen to Ever Given? | Chief MAKOi

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 254 · 2021-03-31 21:42:49

On the big blue marble ... Distances can be deceiving.

Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam is exactly 16,500 km to Rotterdam, by either route.

From Australia, neither route has any appreciable advantage in distance over the other..

Strangely enough, for Asia to Rotterdam OR NYC, the Northwest Passage is also nearly equal to the Bering Strait- Iceland route.

Sydney to NYC is only about 1000km less going through Panama then using the NW Passage.

Sao Paulo to Suez is the same distance through the Med or passing down around Good Hope.

NYC is the same distance to the entire east coastlines of the North Atlantic Ocean, from Boda, Norway to Senegal.

And for what its worth, NYC to Panama is the same distance as NYC to Houston.

Hokie, edited to address your comment. Thanks.

Answer 255

[Post Deleted]

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 256 · 2021-04-01 03:39:27

Now that the 'Ever Given' has been unstuck and traffic in the canal is moving once again, it appears that QAnon followers may drop a conspiracy theory which was starting to develop among the unhinged. Now it was never really made clear what the theory was actually built on except that there had to be a reason behind this obviously well-planned 'accident'. After all, it had a world wide impact. It involved something that very few people had any first hand knowledge of or experience with, always good when dreaming of good conspiracy theory. And last but not least, Hillary Clinton was involved. HUH!!!!

Well, after all, during her years as the First Lady, the Secret Service code name for Hillary was 'Evergreen'. It was written on the side of the ship in big bold letters. And what more does a group of QAnon nutcases need to convince themselves that they're on to something? However, since the crisis is now over, and they didn't need to destroy the ship, and whatever secret cargo it might have been carrying, and nothing happened elsewhere in the world as a result of this six-day drama, it must have been a false alarm. But for many of the true believers, they really thought they had nailed it this time.

Note that this is not an April Fools joke, there actually was a lot of conspiracy theory buzz out there on the fringes, including the above QAnon near-orgasm, as to what this was really all about. Even here in this threa, there was speculation about potential military players, state-supported or otherwise, involved in this incident. And if not this time, talk about this giving those parties ideas for next time.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 257 · 2021-04-01 03:46:27

Sources? It had better not be Mother Jones. You're sounding like the wack job conspiracy theorist with this post.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 258 · 2021-04-01 03:48:34

It originated in a podcast reported on by 'The Daily Beast' (that's where I first heard about this story).

'USA Today' even ran a fact check on it, as it was getting so much buzz:

Fact check: No evidence of Hillary Clinton link with ship stuck in Suez Canal, trafficking

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 259 · 2021-04-01 03:53:17

It's time for you to do some serious self reflection.

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 260 · 2021-04-01 03:54:48

I'm wondering if John is actually QAnon. He seems more interested than anyone else, and is keeping the rumors alive.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 261 · 2021-04-01 03:59:47

Hey, I provided two sources to support where I heard about this. When challenged, how many times have any of you been able to do the same?

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 262 · 2021-04-01 04:08:48

Not about QAnon, because I'm not interested in such nonsense.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 263 · 2021-04-01 04:10:04

You post propaganda as fact. That's why you need the mirror. This conversation was proceeding intelligently until you dropped your conspiracy theories in it.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 264 · 2021-04-01 04:58:24

The Northern sea route is more to do with the Mere De Kara opening up to tankers for crude and LNG I suspect.

A nuke reactor on a boat solves the power issues up there and they have already cracked that one.

So again it comes down to energy.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 265 · 2021-04-01 04:58:48

This has been a part of the buzz all week, just like the series of posts here, in this thread about 30 hours ago, talking about the geopolitical implications of blocking the Suez as well as dozens of other waterways around the world. There wasn't much factual support for that as well, but then that's the nature of the instant and collective discussion of events in today's connected world, and since none of us here represent ourselves as 'journalists', I guess we're each allowed to offer for discussion what we feel is of interest, and since I didn't make this up (I've provided my sources)...

Besides, with this crisis now over, a little humor about why some people were following it as closely as many here were obviously following it, I thought would be enjoyed, if for no other reason than that it demonstrates that everything that happens now days is fuel for someone's beliefs, factual-based or otherwise.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 266 · 2021-04-01 05:20:46

Quote (SwinnyGG)
The earth ain't flat... hint, it's the green one.

What !!

do you mean it's round atom

??

??, and sorry, I am colorblind .. light brown, brown, dark brown cry

Best regards NotaQanna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 267 · 2021-04-01 05:38:49

John reading it while my kid was in the shower certainly made me smile. Although your side of the pond it might get some hot under the collar.

We have a similar situation in Scotland with the SNP and Scottish independence and humour.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 268 · 2021-04-01 06:12:59

It is true! Those supposed "livestock" carrier ships were really carrying food babies to Washington!

Yes. Happy April Fools Day!!!

John, I did not read your post as furthering Q conspiracies. In fact, I took it as you obviously meant it, to discredit such nonsense. I can't see how anyone else could have read it differently. I didn't know that Q had made a case about it, but that isn't surprising given the amount of meds it must take to fuel their collective imagination.

LNG potential. 13,500 Km from Virginia to Japan is roughly equal to Qatar to Japan, but Qatar gas is probably better priced. Norway and Algerian LNG may gain some advantages with a polar route to Japan, but would likely be undercut by Australian gas. There are some large gas export plants in development in East Africa, so future competition will be tough for anyone west of Qatar/Suez. The best foreign market for US LNG is in fact only the northern EU region, anything above the Tower of Hercules. hence the sanctions on Nordstream II.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 269 · 2021-04-01 06:28:40

Anna, you are truly unique. Color blindness is rare among females. Granted, it's rare among males as well, but much more so for gals.

The most common form, Deuteranomaly (a type of Red-Green color blindness) effects approximately 6% of males but less than 0.4% of females. My father had a severe case of Red-Green color blindness. He always joked that that was why he was such a good shot. Because, when deer hunting, he had to make the first shot the kill shot because he wouldn't have have been able to follow a blood trail, unless of course it had been snowing, then who cared what color the blood looked like. Of course, if it were snowing, I'd follow the tracks

Note that my interest in the issues of color blindness was not really because my father's situation, but rather it came about when I was the project manager for a major update in our software user interface and we needed to make sure that it was usable by people who were color blind, so I did a bunch of research on the topic. This included finding a set of color charts that compared what a color blind person would see versus someone who was not color blind. So we had to make sure that when we used colors to indicate something in a menu or say highlight a choice, that we avoided using colors that a color blind person would find hard to distinguish. Obviously you would avoid changing something from Red to Green, or vice versa, to indicate a state change or an option being set. And it could also be an issue when people used a lot of colors for components in their CAD models and while we did offer photo realistic rendering, that usually required a lot of computer power (or at least it did for a long time before the 'Gamers' got the hardware people to produce miracles in silicon), so most people stuck to a form of the RGB color palette. In our case, we used one based a cube made up of six layers, each layer consisting of six x six colors, for a total of 216 colors. Black and White occupying opposing corners, and the remaining six corners being assigned the primary and secondary RGB colors of Red, Green, Blue, Yellow, Cyan and Magenta, with all the variations in between. In fact, I even wrote a program that our customers could run on their models so as to temporarily show them what that model would look like to a color blind person, in case that was something they needed to concern themselves with.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 270 · 2021-04-01 06:51:56

1503 what's in that Mere De Kara region? I have heard about it off and on for years.

Admitally mostly to do with nuclear waste dumping and isotopes washing up in Scotland but later on there was definitely something to do with oil, gas and coal.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 271 · 2021-04-01 07:15:25

Quote (John)
He always joked that that was why he was such a good shot.

Well he probably was.
The reason they think men are more often colorblind then women is because colorblindness gave men an advantage when hunting.
Being colorblind gathering fruits and food items is not an advantage.
Colorblind have the same eyesight as prey animals, they detect movement much better, they do not get confused by the camouflage colors the animals have, so colorblind people can spot animals long before people who can see color.

The same goes for left-handedness it was also an advantage when hunting in a group especially with spear more common with men.

Quote (John)
Anna, you are truly unique.

True

but we all are.

Quote (John)
Color blindness is rare among females.

Also true, so John, Aprils fool.

Actually I didn't think it existed.

Best Regards A

PS. I also have made a lot of HMI pictures, but I have a guy at work who is really colorblind, so I use him as a "guinea pig".

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 272 · 2021-04-01 10:13:49

I think mostly just hopeful prospects. I don't know positively that they are producing anything from any offshore reserves in Arctic waters at this time.
One thing for certain is that no Arctic ice is a boom for Russia. It has kept them bascially landlocked since the dawn of history. Any opening up there and ..well ... they'd be a totally unleashed kid in a candy store. I can easily imagine that Russia has been pumping out as much CO2, hexaflourines and flaring as much methane as possible to try to get a global warming bonfire burning as fast as they can.

Even the original map is hard to read so here is the link
https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4200/h98e3jtz/p...

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 273 · 2021-04-01 11:08:00

Seems the Fortuna is laying about 20km a month and has just been joined by the Akademik Cherskiy.

120 km left until its complete.

Reckon Merkel will get it complete then go.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 274 · 2021-04-01 11:38:58

On a different note divers have inspected the hull and there is light to medium damage what ever that means, but they think it will be able to self navigate to Netherlands.

But basically its stuck in that lake until a load of money has changed hands.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 275 · 2021-04-01 13:43:38

Nordstream has been stuck on that same "120km to go" for the past year. They must be laying in circles. Hey, that actually happened in the GOM at least once.

Merkel is doing some dancing, mostly to US sanction threats. The puppetmaster supreme pulling all the strings is former German Chancellor 1998-2005, Hr Gerhard Schröder. Schröder is currently the chairman of the board of Nordstream AG and of Rosneft, How's that for geopolitical pipelines? In fact that's much bigger than any coup that GW Bush and Dick Cheney ever dreamed of pulling off. Germany is walking an extremely tight wire on this one.

LionelHutz (Electrical) · Answer 276 · 2021-04-01 13:46:54

I'd think the canal authority is responsible for all salvage and losses if there were no mechanical failures and a canal pilot was piloting the ship.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 277 · 2021-04-01 13:50:17

Lionel, patience. Let the black box tell its story.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 278 · 2021-04-01 14:06:16

Nordstream 2 was 160km at Christmas.

And they have finished the German end in the last 2 months.

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/internationa...

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 279 · 2021-04-01 14:48:12

Lionel, they're already asking for money.

https://gcaptain.com/egypt-compensation-suez-block...

After hearing about the captain of the Denver having to override the Canal Authority pilot while the ship ahead and behind both crashed really does make one question the competence of the pilots. Pending investigation it seems Egypt should be paying the rest of the world. I doubt that is going to happen, the investigation is being performed internally by Egypt.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 280 · 2021-04-01 15:31:11

The second story https://gcaptain.com/shipowner-declares-general-av... is also very interesting.

Basically the ship owner now wants all the owners of the cargo to fund part of the cost of "saving" the vessel and its cargo. And if they are not insured or can't pay the container and its contents is seized.

With 20,000 containers (or is it 10,000 normal containers and 20,000 TEUs?) that's a major headache for everyone.

Did the salvage go Lloyds open contract?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 281 · 2021-04-01 15:40:21

Lionel,

I'm not sure if it was earlier in this thread, but the Suez pilots, like nearly all other pilots, do not take control of the vessel. The captain retains responsibility and actually gives the orders to the helm and engine. Of course if the captain ignores the "advice" of the pilots and then runs aground or hits something then he is clearly at fault, but even if he does everything he is asked then its still his fault.

The only pilots who take responsibility apparently are the Panama canal pilots.

I think they will end up with a limit on ship size if the weather is predicting high winds or high gusts.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

dik (Structural) · Answer 282 · 2021-04-01 16:53:31

Quote (even if he does everything he is asked then its still his fault.)

You'd think that any reasonable court would take that into consideration wrt damages...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 283 · 2021-04-01 17:04:19

well that's my load of aliexpress led strip lights I suspect going to be a tad late.....

Its well worth while going through the other articles on that site. loads of stuff that doesn't hit mainstream media

waross (Electrical) · Answer 284 · 2021-04-01 17:06:42

Deny ownership and re-order. grin

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 285 · 2021-04-01 17:12:08

From a lengthy write-up in the Post about this. A good read if you have access to it. Goes into great detail about the recovery process too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/s...

Quote:
At 7:08 a.m., with the sun an hour above the desert horizon, the Ever Given moved into one of the canal’s one-lane arteries and approached a bend to the right. Satellite data shows the ship started to weave from bank to bank at more than 15 miles an hour, much faster than the canal’s speed limit of less than 10 mph.

What was happening on the Ever Given’s bridge, where the captain and two certified Suez Canal pilots were on duty, remains a mystery. But some maritime and canal officials have noted that a wind of up to 35 mph was blowing from the south, pressing against the wall of containers.

For more than half an hour, the ship veered from side to side, according to the satellite tracking, narrowly missing the banks until its stern seemed to brush the left-hand shore. The bow instantly sheered sharply to the right, and 400 million pounds of ship plowed into the sandy eastern bank of the canal at 13 mph.

It was 7:44 a.m., and the Ever Given was lodged stem to stern.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 286 · 2021-04-01 17:21:25

Well I haven't bought anything from IKEA , lucky me.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

waross (Electrical) · Answer 287 · 2021-04-01 17:33:40

Quote:
Satellite data shows the ship started to weave from bank to bank at more than 15 miles an hour, much faster than the canal’s speed limit of less than 10 mph.

I have to query this.
Over half an hour at over 5 MPH above the speed limit?
She didn't overtake any ships?
Some following ships collided trying to stop"
She should have been a couple of miles ahead of following ships.
I suspect that "Speed limit be dammed" she was moving at the speed of the normal traffic.
How for can you speed on a busy one lane road with no passing?
Unless the throttle got stuck.
That may have happened.
Were any of the builders linked in any way to Toyota?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

dik (Structural) · Answer 288 · 2021-04-01 18:08:46

He was likely travelling the normal speed... it's interesting that the captain of one of the American boats following had to take control from the pilot to keep from crashing into the Ever Given...

Does Egypt charge for the use of their pilots? Is it just a money grab?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

waross (Electrical) · Answer 289 · 2021-04-01 18:37:01

Yes Dik. I think that we may safely discount reports of over speed.
It may be metric confusion.
Traveling 15 kph when the limit is 10 mph.
Could it happen?
Well, metric confusion brought down the Gimli Glider .

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

dik (Structural) · Answer 290 · 2021-04-01 18:38:58

Yup... and the government sidestepped the metric issue...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 291 · 2021-04-01 18:51:33

Ships and aircraft do things in knts.

Which is based on the distance of 1 second of arc on the earth's surface at the equator.

It's neither metric or imperial.

zeusfaber (Military) · Answer 292 · 2021-04-01 19:31:08

The deal is that "Owners, mobilizers, charterers and/or operators bind themselves responsible for any mistakes resulting from pilot's advice or arise(sic) by SCA personnel. If you don't like it, you can go the long way round. Have a Stugeron on us.

A.

waross (Electrical) · Answer 293 · 2021-04-01 19:46:46

Doing 15 kph when the limit is 10 knots?
Even greater confusion.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

hokie66 (Structural) · Answer 294 · 2021-04-01 20:58:03

It's the Washington Post, what do you expect?

Fischstabchen (Electrical) · Answer 295 · 2021-04-01 21:18:58

If we have learned anything from this fiasco, it is that the unbridled dictatorship of Egypt is responsible for not operating the canal well, unbridled european capitalism is responsible for the backlog of ships needing to go east, and unbridled Chinese communism is responsible for the backlog of ships needing to go west.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 296 · 2021-04-01 21:47:25

15 kph is 9.3 mph
15 knots is 17.25 mph
10 knots is 11.5 mph

Limits
http://www.eisgroup.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/0...
16 kph ordinary vessels = 9.9 mph
14 kph tankers = 8.7 mph

Of the above, only the 15 kph is less than the limits.

So,
33% chance she was legal
67% chance she was speeding

Ingenuity (Structural) · Answer 297 · 2021-04-01 21:48:02

Quote (Alistair_Heaton)
Which is based on the distance of 1 second of arc on the earth's surface at the equator.

1 arc minute not 1 arc second.

Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 298 · 2021-04-01 22:21:03

For those questioning the speed (or the Post’s reporting for that matter), or what the other vessels nearby were doing; from another source:

Quote:
Those piecing together what caused the accident will undoubtedly look at speed. The ship’s last known speed was 13.5 knots at 7:28 a.m., 12 minutes before the grounding, according to Bloomberg data.

That would have surpassed the speed limit of about 7.6 knots (8.7 miles an hour) to 8.6 knots that is listed as the maximum speed vessels are “allowed to transit" through the canal, according to the Suez authority’s rules of navigation handbook posted on its website.

Captains interviewed for this story said it can pay to increase the speed in the face of a strong wind to maneuver the ship better.

“Speeding up to a certain point is effective," said Chris Gillard, who was captain of a 300-meter container ship that crossed the Suez monthly for nearly a decade until 2019. “More than that and it becomes counter effective because the bow will get sucked down deep into the water. Then, adding too much power does nothing but exacerbate the problem."

Bloomberg data also show that the 300-meter Maersk Denver traveling behind the Ever Given also posted a top speed of 10.6 knots at 7:28 a.m. A spokesperson for Maersk in Denmark declined to comment. Ship captains and local pilots said it’s not unusual to travel through the canal around that speed despite the lower limit.

The Cosco Galaxy, a container ship marginally smaller than the Ever Given, was immediately ahead and appears to have travelled at a similar speed, though with a tugboat. The one ahead of the Cosco, the Al Nasriyah, also had an escort. The escorts are not mandatory, according to the Suez authority’s rules of navigation, though the authority can require it for ships if they deem it necessary.

“The biggest vessels often travel with a tugboat in close proximity, an escort boat, to facilitate the transit," said Captain Theologos Gampierakis at commodity trading house Trafigura Group in Athens.

A cargo ship with containers stacked high like the Ever Given can be particularly hard to navigate since the ship’s hull and wall of containers can act as a huge sail, said Kinsey, the former captain, who made his last trip through Suez in 2006 .

“You might find yourself positioning the ship in one direction, and you’re actually moving in another direction," said Kinsey. “There’s a very fine line between having enough speed to maneuver and not having too much speed that the air and hydrodynamics become unstable. Any deviation can get real bad real quick because it’s so tight."

About 20 minutes after the incident, the first of two tugboats accompanying the vessels ahead of the Ever Given came back to push its port side in an effort to dislodge it, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Later, eight tugboats were deployed to push both sides of the container vessel, but to no avail.

As 1503-44 noted above, the speed limit is 16 kph ordinary vessels or 9.9 mph. And 13.5 knots is 15.5 mph. Both of which are what the Post reported.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 299 · 2021-04-02 04:51:08

Your right 1 minuet of arc.

Been getting on for 20 years since I did nav general. Its a good unit to use for navigation allows loads of in your head calculations to be done on the fly. Although i must admit on modern aircraft we don't do it very often these days apart from distance V height for a 3 deg glide.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 300 · 2021-04-02 05:15:41

When I was doing my internship some years back I was on a speedy steamer. The maximum maneuvering RPM was some 75 rpm (full ahead) but the plant could readily make 100 without getting in to extractions or anything and the pilots knew it. We'd routinely get phone calls from the bridge asking for 100 rpm in San Francisco Bay (17 knots). I remember hearing a complaint about our wake going over pier 39 and getting the tourists wet.

She was a sporty girl seen here on her way to scrap. The ship has s destroyer stern where the prop had a strut bearing which was unusual for a commercial ship. Cruise speed was 24 knots at 790 feet. I'll never forget th color red on the chief engineer's face when the chief mate managed to dial in 20 degrees of rudder at 24 knots during a loss of steering drill.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 301 · 2021-04-02 05:34:35

I used to scuba dive off an old clyde tug in the clyde near Glasgow . She went quite fast as well. They had stuck a compressor on the rear deck.

She looked like this.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 302 · 2021-04-02 05:53:07

That's a lot of stern. Naval architects are getting spoiled with z-drives and don't put the attachment points far enough forward on boats anymore. With the attachment points close to the steering there is no leverage and we can't pull and steer at the same time from the stern. As ship assist vessels we hardly ever work from the stern but we carry a rescue advertisement.

See the big deck on one of the most legendary towing vessels ever built, the Crowley Invader class. It's a Spaulding design and the Sea Robin and such were part but had less horsepower. The Invaders had 20 cylinder EMD engines. I operate a Spaulding boat built as the Phillip W and is currently called Patriot. That thing is a work of art compared to everything else I have come across. Spaulding was famous for using triple rudders and I know why but most of the industry doesn't. 3 rudders lets you move two outboard so they act as nozzles and give better bollard pull numbers while still maintaining nearly the maneuverability of a 2 rudder setup.

Then, Crowley partnered with a naval architect firm to design these lumps. I might operate one so I'm going to have to delete this post if it gains traction.

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 303 · 2021-04-02 06:05:40

Nice point about the tow point being too far aft and over the rudder. I can see where it could be useful to be able to steer while towing.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 304 · 2021-04-02 06:15:02

It was great to dive off even with the compressor on it and quads of nitrogen for making nitrox. Loads of room for kitting up and moving about. The toilet was brutal though by far the worst I have every used on a boat. And getting back onboard was very stress free. It was set up for commercial ops and there was room for a chamber but they didn't have it onboard for us.

I grew up in Aberdeen and went for regular walks on Torry Battery. Always loved watching the marine traffic in and out of Aberdeen harbour.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 305 · 2021-04-02 06:35:03

What's the different classifications of tugs?

I see you have used ship assist.

There seems to be a few other classifications out there.

Bollard
Harbour tug
Docking assist
Ocean

Smit and Alp seem to be the big boys in Europe and ME.

https://www.alpmaritime.com/fleet/alp-striker

Seen that one and its utterly colossal.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 306 · 2021-04-02 07:03:40

In 2018, when my wife and I did our four-island cruise in Hawaii for our 50th wedding anniversary (it was actually our 51st, but we had had to postpone a year due to my heart valve replacement surgery), one of the things that I spent time when entering and leaving the various ports was watching the different tug boats that we'd see. Now our ship itself didn't need any tugs, or at least I never saw any used to move our ship, the only thing close was just before we left Honolulu, a tug was used to move and then take away the fueling barge that was servicing our ship:

September 2018 (Sony a6000)

This one we saw that may have been escorting us into Hilo, on the Big Island:

September 2018 (Sony a6000)

Here's that same tug, the next morning at it's morring:

September 2018 (Sony a6000)

And I watched this one as we left Hilo:

September 2018 (Sony a6000)

And we saw this one in the harbor on Kauai:

September 2018 (Sony a6000)

And as we were waiting to disembark when we got back to Oahu, we saw this rather small tug towing a tourist submarine out of the harbor on one of their underwater excursions. I guess the sub, which actually did do a real submerge and was self-powered (we considered taking one on these rides but we got to the islands just as a hurricane had passed and they had suspended their scheduled trips and they didn't restart them until after our cruise ship had left and we only had one day in Honolulu after the cruise, so maybe next time) but I guess they only have enough power (they were electric) to handle the actual dive and underwater exploration, but didn't have enough power to go back and forth, from and to the port:

September 2018 (Sony a6000)

We watched several of these come and go as we waited for our assigned disembarking time.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 307 · 2021-04-02 07:17:32

John, I love you sometimes. You posted pictures of Tiger tugs from Hawaii. We operated one for a minute. They're the worst boats ever built. Don't get me started on the plywood deck plates set 12 inches below every frame (3 feet spacing) so you can't walk through the engine room and a 5 ton rated winch on a 50 ton boat. Worst boats ever. The one called Freedom in your picture waa ours. I reconfigured the brake band on one drum so it could hold the pull. I also installed 3M Crystalline window tint on the wheelhouse to keep the captains from melting.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 308 · 2021-04-02 07:20:40

They look nice

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 309 · 2021-04-02 07:22:29

There definitely seems to be a difference of opinion across the pond on how to attach the tow hawser.

The big ones in europe with a winch have a BOP style hydraulic shear setup to cut the hawser remotely and the smaller ones that hook setup. That old clyde tug must be 1950's built and it has a quick release hook although that one was manual with a rope that to that passage way behind it.

Tugboateng please don't take this as a pissing match comment. Genuinely interested about the different philosophy's. I am happy that things are done differently either side of the pond, now more interested in why.

Quote (tugboateng)
They're the worst boats ever built

Love it!!! sounds like me talking about BAe Jetstream 31's, only people that argue with me is Metro pilots and technicians.

Answer 310

[Post Deleted]

dik (Structural) · Answer 311 · 2021-04-02 07:34:53

Do boats have a decking material. I suspect the steel deck would get quite hot in the sun... also some interesting thermal expansion effects... hot on top and cold on bottom.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 312 · 2021-04-02 07:35:21

Allistair, the company that built that Tiger class of vessel bragged about the architect's ability to design a boat on a napkin and it showed. It showed at every level from building an 80ft boat that required class approval when 78 feet didn't, Winches from swampy Louisiana that didn't make 19% of the 3:1 safety factor, and German z-drives and their confused sourcing of parts. Our sister company pulled the bullnose off the deck and the class society gave it an as constructed rating of 15 tons on a boat that could pull 55 tons.

dik (Structural) · Answer 313 · 2021-04-02 07:46:31

A safety factor of only 1.5? Are Z-drives common... they appear to be mechanically inefficient...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 314 · 2021-04-02 07:58:31

I did a elective course for a year on marine architecture didn't go near it again afterwards. Find boats very interesting though.

Once took a Captain of one of the channel island cat speed ferries on the jumpseat to get him out the the islands due some illness. When I was leaving CI at end of contract taking my car back to the mainland I ask one of the stewards on the pax decks if he was the boss that day. Turns out he wasn't but the skipper knew about the trip and I was on the bridge for the whole trip and loved it... Especially the banter with the duty engineer on the bridge.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 315 · 2021-04-02 09:08:48

Quote (Alistair)
What's the different classifications of tugs?

Here is some explanations between different tugs.

https://www.wartsila.com/encyclopedia/term/tugs

And here is the Swedish icebreaker tug Vilja (Volition) I guess in Finland she would have been named Sisu.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

waross (Electrical) · Answer 316 · 2021-04-02 12:32:26

An old tug-boat captain once told me of his impression of tug design.
Select the engine and prop that will do the job.
Add enough boat to keep them from sinking.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 317 · 2021-04-02 15:09:49

Allistair, in the US, all boats have the hawser on a winch. Towing forces are transmitted to the vessel through the brake band. Some newer vessels have hydraulic or electric render recover modes and can tow without using a brake. There are few of these in the USA.

As for releasing the tow, with the exception of some low rent companies, the vessels have winches that can be free-spooled to ditch the tow in an emergency. The end of the hawser is fastened to the drum with a ssmallerline that will break when the hawser is dumped.

The horsepower of modern board is so great even the synthetic ropes are too heavy to handle by hand.

Dik, the nozzles z-drive is the most efficient methods of turning horsepower into bollard pull. Conventional boats drift with the current while pulling so you'll have to stop periodically and reposition the boat. There are boats with drives on the bow, most on the stern, some on either end. Each arrangement has advantages and disadvantages.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 318 · 2021-04-02 15:24:06

Interesting, I can understand why they do it with a hook this side of the pond I have seen a hawser start to part and they dumped it and it shot back and whalloped off the side of the vessel being pulled. No great lengths of cable in the water to foul things up and the tug has instant free movement.

Plus if marine ropes are anything like land based winch cables its an expensive and utter pain in the bum to keep them certified. And if you just have a hook which the hawser drops into you need less man power as well. The big boys have a small capstan winch to pull the hawser in via a messenger if they can't get under it.

dik (Structural) · Answer 319 · 2021-04-02 16:53:15

Thanks for the z-drive info... square cut crown and pinion? Braided polypropylene? size?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 320 · 2021-04-02 17:33:48

If you mean when I saw it?

Diameter of my calf and it was some form of dead rope with a weave outside. It was a klondyker about to get sucked through the pentland firth. 20 min later one of the big boys from Shetland turned up and took it under tow with something twice as thick.

We weren't close so I don't know what they saw to trigger its release. We just saw it springing back towards the russian and the skipper of our boat, another dive boat from scapa. said that hawsers just parted.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 321 · 2021-04-02 18:13:01

dik, z-drives all run palloid gears top and bottom. I've got a box open right now, I'll get you a pic of the upper gear shortly.

In USA ship assist tugs use some flavor of UHMWPE for the rope. Spectra and Dyneema are the dominant strands. In our fleet we run Samson Rope's Saturn 12 in 2-5/8 inch diameter.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 322 · 2021-04-02 18:17:52

RE: Suez Canal blocked by container ship

2

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) 2 Apr 21 18:17

For Allistair, the weak link.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 323 · 2021-04-02 18:38:12

RE: Suez Canal blocked by container ship

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) 2 Apr 21 18:38

Palloid gear.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 324 · 2021-04-02 18:59:37

The Ever Given is 'stuck' again, only this time, it's not on a sandbar, but rather by red-tape. It seems that the Egyptian government doesn't think the owners of the ship are fully coopering and until inspections are done, including an examination of the 'black box'. Until then, the ship is stuck where it's at:

Ever Given Stuck Again As Estimates of Shipping Stall Total $1 Billion

https://www.newsweek.com/ever-given-stuck-again-es...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

dik (Structural) · Answer 325 · 2021-04-02 23:33:43

I guess they don't concern themselves with the efficiency, or there are other reasons... really neat photos... I've never been exposed to anything like that... I had no idea the equipment was that 'tidy'.
Thanks very much tb. I just noticed that the rollers guide the tow rope onto the spindle (or whatever it is called).

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

dik (Structural) · Answer 326 · 2021-04-02 23:35:18

Quote (It seems that the Egyptian government doesn't think the owners of the ship are fully coopering and until inspections are done, including an examination of the 'black box'. Until then, the ship is stuck where it's at:)

Put the money in trust and go to the courts... easy solution unless the courts are as corrupt as the leaders...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 327 · 2021-04-02 23:48:16

Yes, the level wind. Something interesting to keep in mind, for wire winches the level wind is geared to neatly lay the wire across the drum but soft lines tend to bury themselves in the layers when you pull. In this case, the level wind is geared very quickly so that the line lays in a criss cross pattern on the drum

dik (Structural) · Answer 328 · 2021-04-03 00:34:41

drum... ya, that's the word. Thanks... I didn't realise the cross pattern... keep the rope from embedding itself in the lower layers.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 329 · 2021-04-03 02:04:28

While this is not a marine application, an alternative method is to just have a big enough drum that you just lay a single row of cable, in this case, a mine lift hoist at the Quincy Mine in Hancock, in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. It was installed in 1918, and was used to lift mine cars from, at the time, the deepest mine shaft in the world. The drum, which is spiral grooved, had a capacity of nearly 11,000 feet of cable. The mine shaft, Quincy #2, had an angled (55˚ from vertical) shaft length of 9,260 feet (vertical depth of 6,200 feet) and the hoist could lift 10 tons of copper ore at nearly 36 mph. The hoist was built on what at the time was also the largest single block of reinforced concrete in the world, 3,200 cubic yards. The mine continued to operate until 1945, when the dramatic drop in the price of copper after the end of WWII, no longer allowed the mine to operate at a profit.

October 2010 (Sony DSC-H2)

This is the Quincy Mine Hoist House where the hoisting machinery was installed:

October 2010 (Sony DSC-H2)

And this shows that Quincy #2 Shaft House. Note that the steam plant had been demolished years ago:

October 2010 (Sony DSC-H2)

And here is the Quincy #2 Shaft House. Note that slope of the large section of the roof shows the angle at which the shaft went into the ground. The reason for angle is that the shafts were cut to follow the geological angle of the strata, shafts than ran out horizontally from this single angled shaft. There were dozens of similar mines in the area, and they all followed that same angle. Note that Quincy #2 is the best preserved example of copper mines in the area, which was originally opened for operation in 1868.

October 2010 (Sony DSC-H2)

This shows a typical piece of 'float copper', often found in the area. The copper taken from these mines was pure ore. There was no actual 'smelting' process, only the mechanical separating of the rock from the pure copper, which was then melted and poured in ingots for shipment.

October 2010 (Sony DSC-H2)

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 330 · 2021-04-03 02:54:08

Pure ore? That must have been quite an asteroid impact.

I wonder what the purpose of the tapered ends was? Soft start and soft stop?

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 331 · 2021-04-03 04:23:29

interesting stuff thanks for real life close ups.

Courts in international transport are a bit of nightmare.

I feel sorry for the crew of the evergreen. They will basically be held hostage until its all sorted out.

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 332 · 2021-04-03 04:34:51

Yes, back in 1918, it was easier to run the drum at a constant speed and use the geometry to control the speed during the trips up and down the shaft. The speed control was basically start and stop. Here you can see part of the powerful braking system. There was a duplicate on the other end of the drum:

October 2010 (Sony DSC-H2)

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 333 · 2021-04-03 05:04:49

As for the ore, remember this mine sets just a couple of miles from the shore of Lake Superior, the largest body of fresh water the world. Four of the five Great Lakes were formed by thin spots in the Earth's crust, which collapsed and formed deep fissures (Lake Erie was not formed like that). In the case of Lake Superior, the crust was either extra thin or the collapse extra deep as magma from the Earth pushed up pure molten Copper, forced up through the gaps in this Geo-structure, thus the seams of pure Copper, and a small amount of Silver and Gold, minuscule in comparison, but there none the less (all three metals always appear together, with one of them being dominate by an order of orders of magnitude compared to the other two).

And Lake Superior is very deep.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 334 · 2021-04-03 08:36:36

John, Lake Baikal and Tanganykia are larger. Baikal by about 2x.

And, since my grandfather mined copper with Calumet & Hecla up to the early 60's, I have read quite a bit about the mining activity there. As you probably know, the Superior region's geology is very old dating back 1 billion years and is complicated by some 30 lava flows alternating with sedimentary layers. Sometimes flowing one direction, than another. I was surprised to learn only a few years ago that the copper and other minerals actually were formed after surface volcanic flows halted and the minerals having entered the most recent sedimentary layers by percolating up from below as the Superior anticline subsided, forcing up solutions of hot water from which the minerals precipitated upon cooling. I had long imagined that they had been deposited from intrusion of molton, pure elemental, metallic materials.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 335 · 2021-04-03 11:56:32

To get this thread back on track a bit, this is an interesting piece explaining some of the issues. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/0...

A key one for me is that the ship in front which was reckoned to be about as big didn't have any issues with the wind...

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 336 · 2021-04-03 12:04:58

What it was because of Brexit? Only joking :D

Comcokid (Electrical) · Answer 337 · 2021-04-03 14:09:18

These are supposed to be winds for March 23 AM over the Suez. I found these posted elsewhere but don't know what app or website generated them. It doesn't look like the Ever Given was necessarily subjected to cross winds.

While searching more on winds the Ever Given encountered, I found this information:
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/strong-...

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 338 · 2021-04-03 15:20:14

Quote (1503-44)

...Lake Baikal and Tanganykia are larger. Baikal by about 2x.

Lake Baikal is the largest by volume and Lake Tanganykia is the longest, but Lake Superior has the largest surface area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lakes_by_are...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 339 · 2021-04-03 17:15:25

OK Great.... We both win.
I'll bet Baikal is colder.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 340 · 2021-04-03 17:16:55

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 341 · 2021-04-03 17:32:51

I don't know, I've swam in Lake Superior and it's damn cold. The story goes that if you drown in Lake Superior, they might as well put your headstone on the shore because your body will never be found. It's not warm enough for decomposition to create sufficient bloating for the body to float.

Another tidbit, despite it being so far North and the water being so cold, it's very rare that Lake Superior ever freezes over during the winter. It's just that the lake is so large and contains so much water, that by the time the water temp reaches 32˚(F), it's Spring and the temps start to rise.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 342 · 2021-04-03 19:12:12

Well that was interesting. National Parks Service says freezes twice a century. 1979 and 2014.

It seems that it freezes 95% quite a lot. Some say that's enough to qualify as full.
Some also say that has happened 5 times in the last 20yrs. Others, once. Hey, what's 5%. That's a pretty big ice cube, no matter which way you look at it.

Quote (https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/20...)
Lake Superior nearly frozen over: 90 percent+. Only the fifth time in the last 20 years the big lake has exceeded 90 percent ice cover. In 2014 and 2015, ice covered more than 95 percent of the lake. The last time Superior froze completely was 1996. NOAA satellite pic from 3-7

Yahoo says 1962 as well.

Mr Google is pumping out the statistics now!
Calumet has the oldest, still in use, ice hockey rink in the world. No wonder.
https://www.mlive.com/news/2019/04/michigans-calum...

And ... due to climate change, Superior may not have any ice by 2040. ???

dik (Structural) · Answer 343 · 2021-04-04 01:47:51

The thickness of ice may only be 2 or 3'...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 344 · 2021-04-04 02:30:15

And when the lake doesn't freeze over, that's when they break snowfall records. Unfortunately, they've had a very mild Winter so far with just over 131 inches of snow (this is at the school in Houghton):

The year I graduated, 1971, that winter, while we didn't set a record for total snowfall (but we did get nearly 280 inches), we did set one for the longest continuous snowfall, 52 days. Now that does not mean that it actually snowed continuously, just that it snowed a legally measurable amount in a 24 hour period, every day, for 52 days. It was like living in the tropic, except instead of getting a heavy rain shower every afternoon, we'd wake-up every morning to two or three inches a fresh snow.

Now I say 'legally measurable amount' because in the state of Michigan they allocate additional highway funds for snow removal based on the number of days in which a county had a 'legally measurable amount' of snow, so keeping an accurate record of stuff like that can mean big bucks for the local county road commission.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 345 · 2021-04-04 07:14:16

More humidity from the unfrozen surface = more snow. Most houses in Calumet and Laurium have entrances on the second floor for winter access.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 346 · 2021-04-04 08:55:28

Seems there was a bit of fake news about who was the pilot.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-5661552...

Fair winds young lady for your upcoming exams. The guys that I know that have taken them say they are not easy or a tick in a box. .

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 347 · 2021-04-04 09:23:03

RE: Suez Canal blocked by container ship

RedSnake (Electrical) 4 Apr 21 09:23

Deleted: New post 5 Apr 21 10:02

BR A

Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental) · Answer 348 · 2021-04-04 16:23:02

Quote (LittleInch)
A key one for me is that the ship in front which was reckoned to be about as big didn't have any issues with the wind...

This article I posted an excerpt from a few days ago stated that the two ships in front of the Ever Given had tug escorts.

Eufalconimorph (Computer) · Answer 349 · 2021-04-04 17:17:49

Quote (Comcokid (Electrical))

I found these posted elsewhere but don't know what app or website generated them.

That looks like the Ventusky app. https://www.ventusky.com/
AFAICT (I use it as my main weather app) it doesn't let you view historical data.

The icon in the upper right (showing wind speed) notes that those particular screenshots are from the DWD ICON model: https://www.dwd.de/EN/research/weatherforecasting/...

https://www.ventusky.com/?p=29.963;32.572;10&l...

So I'm not certain, but I think that data is ICON's historical prediction, not actual wind speed data.

dik (Structural) · Answer 350 · 2021-04-04 23:09:04

Is that ever a neat site... thanks.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 351 · 2021-04-05 06:56:36

RE: Suez Canal blocked by container ship

1503-44 (Petroleum) 5 Apr 21 06:56

It really is.

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 352 · 2021-04-05 09:55:28

Question. On https://www.ventusky.com/, wind gusts are reported as Maximum 1 hour.

The usual definition is

Quote (https://graphical.weather.gov/definitions/defineWi...)
Is a sudden, brief increase in speed of the wind. According to U.S. weather observing practice, gusts are reported when the peak wind speed reaches at least 16 knots and the variation in wind speed between the peaks and lulls is at least 9 knots. The duration of a gust is usually less than 20 seconds.

If they are meaning sustained wind for 1 hour, that has a much more significant impact on the ship maneuvering, than the 20 second gust.
Increments on the time slider are 3 hours.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 353 · 2021-04-05 10:02:33

I found this historic weather report from Suez,.
If the Ever Given was going 13,5 knots against 5,94 knots north-northwest winds the actual speed was 7,56 knots or ?? ponder

Ever Givens speed 13.5 knots________Speed limit Suez 14 km/h ___________Wind 11 km/h________________________Wind gusts 15 km/h

_____-

_______

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 354 · 2021-04-05 10:19:23

Your getting confused with your aircraft stuff.

The ships reference is the water not the air. But they will take it against the ground reference. All the speeds on the AIS will be ground speed off GPS.

If the tide was pulling water north then that would decrease its ground speed and south it would decrease it.

The rudder authority is determined by the speed through water.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 355 · 2021-04-05 10:54:12

Thanks Alistair.
Your right I am confused

Well I guess that was to exact to be true.

You mean.
SOG, 10, Speed over ground, in 1/10 knot steps (0-102.2 knots) 1 023 = not available, 1 022 = 102.2 knots or higher.

If there hade been no wind at all and he hade been following the rules he hade been going 7,56 knots now it seems that he added the wind speed that he was going against 5,94 knots ending up at 13,5 knots.
Just coincident or is there some logic in that?

Best regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 356 · 2021-04-05 11:16:57

Ships you have to work with water speed to get the speed over ground not wind. Because the ship travels through the water

dik (Structural) · Answer 357 · 2021-04-05 17:51:22

We noticed that the ground speed was 0... lol

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 358 · 2021-04-05 18:13:44

Depends on your reference.

Standing on the moon it's not zero.

And that the wind does not come into the equation is true, as long as it isn't a Clipper Ship like the Maltese Falcon.

BR A

PS. Now I am like Schrödingers cat, but I am outside the box...

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

dik (Structural) · Answer 359 · 2021-04-05 18:19:55

Quote (PS. Now I am like Schrödingers cat, but I am outside the box...)

If you're dead, how did you write the message? ponder

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 360 · 2021-04-05 18:32:45

Well it's this New App, MicroStoft OuijaBoard.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

dik (Structural) · Answer 361 · 2021-04-05 20:34:30

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 362 · 2021-04-05 20:47:57

She wrote the message before leaving the box.

When you take a test on quantum computer programming, you get your result in 2 envelopes. You can only open 1.

IRstuff (Aerospace) · Answer 363 · 2021-04-05 20:56:53

Quote:
She wrote the message before leaving the box.

This is an example of quantum entanglement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

dik (Structural) · Answer 364 · 2021-04-05 21:47:53

Thanks IRS... I'll have to sort that out...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 365 · 2021-04-07 04:47:51

After reading about the evergreen my news feed is giving me marine news...

Which to be honest is no bad thing

https://www.swzmaritime.nl/news/2021/04/06/smit-sa...

Load shift and rough weather. This time SMIT is off to save the day.

Didn't see the point of creating a new thread.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 366 · 2021-04-07 05:10:59

There are some old books about sailing on boats with actual coal bunkers. "Captain Jan" comes to mind where the experienced captains were able to feel the change in roll to know when the vessel was becoming dangerously unstable. Roll on Roll Off ships are notorious for getting their ballast wrong and ending up on their sides. I am surprised there is no accelerometer based system to alert crews their ship is not stable. In this case, seeing the way the ship rolls, it may be on its side but it's seems very stable. I can understand a crew evacuation because beds and dining tables don't work at such angles, stairs become quite challenging too. It doesn't appear that the ship itself is in danger, though. That's good design.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 367 · 2021-04-07 05:33:06

Some of the load came adrift and shifted. Which appparently made it unstable.

A big work boat is now a drift after falling off.

So it might have fixed itself.

The salvage crew getting airlifted in.

I suspect that's why they need an unlimited master on a salvage crew so they can take command and drive it to somewhere safer. ?

epoxybot (Structural) · Answer 368 · 2021-04-08 00:21:33

Quote (Waross)
An old tug-boat captain once told me of his impression of tug design.
Select the engine and prop that will do the job.
Add enough boat to keep them from sinking.

Something like this...Link

waross (Electrical) · Answer 369 · 2021-04-08 01:39:46

Like an iceberg, mostly underwater.
This type was popular at the mills and booming grounds on the west coast of Canada.

Taken at the Duncan Logging Museum , Canada.

There is a prop in the cage (not shown in the photo) that may be rotated 360 degrees continuously.
There is no rudder, the boat moves in the direction that the prop is pointed.
The fixed skeg at the back turns the boat in the direction the prop is pulling it.
That is why the rolling action when the boat changes direction.
I understand that some models were driven by a V8 diesel with over 300 HP.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

dik (Structural) · Answer 370 · 2021-04-08 01:40:34

"A master mariner is a licensed mariner who holds the highest grade of seafarer qualification; namely, an unlimited master's license. Such a license is labelled unlimited because it has no limits on the tonnage, power, or geographic location of the vessel that the holder of the license is allowed to serve upon. A master mariner would therefore be allowed to serve as the master of a merchant ship of any size, of any type, operating anywhere in the world,[1] and it reflects the highest level of professional qualification amongst mariners and deck officers."

First I've heard the expression... thanks.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

dik (Structural) · Answer 371 · 2021-04-08 01:43:49

Quote (There is a prop in the cage (not shown in the photo) that may be rotated 360 degrees continuously.)

the z-drive?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 372 · 2021-04-08 04:58:01

dik I believe it doesn't cover the great lakes with the standard one. You need some additional exams and tickets for them.

I only know that because of pub piss taking between two holders. The Scottish none Great Lakes skipper put forward the point that the Canadian who was qualified should get the beers in because he was more senior. He claimed it was against his religion because he was French Canadian.

dik (Structural) · Answer 373 · 2021-04-08 06:26:39

Could be... I'd never heard of a master mariner before this thread, or a Z-drive. You'd think that if he could pilot a boat anywhere in the world... the Great Lakes would be a walk in the park... same skills involved...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 374 · 2021-04-08 06:37:43

We have the equivalent in aircraft

Airline Transport pilot license ATPL.

But we have to be qualified on a type.

There are very rare pilots out there which are the equivalent to unlimited in regards they don't need rated on the aircraft. But they are restricted to none public transport and geographical area that the qualification was issued in. They are part of the test pilot certification setup so you don't often meet them. I have flown with one twice in 17 years.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 375 · 2021-04-08 06:42:26

The unlimited I have met seem to cover the full range of autocratic arsehole through to hairy bummed pirate.

But it's the same in the aviation world as well.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 376 · 2021-04-08 06:45:19

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 377 · 2021-04-08 10:06:21

The special license for the great lakes makes some sense, just from physics. The water is fresh, so any ship will sit lower in the water than it would in brackish or salt water. This changes the dynamics of the ship's buoyancy. The great lakes are also known for some seriously rough weather. The largest tonnage transported in the great lakes for years was taconite. Ore carriers by design sit very low in the water, which when combined with heavy seas creates additional challenges for ship handling.

What caused "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald?"

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 378 · 2021-04-08 11:54:13

I suspect its a law exam addition. But didn't ask.

waross (Electrical) · Answer 379 · 2021-04-08 13:58:21

FacEngrPE, Thanks for the new information in regards to the Edmund Fitzgerald.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 380 · 2021-04-08 14:00:35

"Ore carriers by design sit very low in the water,"
Someone thought the Great Lakes were saltwater?

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 381 · 2021-04-08 15:48:47

My favorite Aunt (by marriage), her father was a Scottish sea Captain who, when he finally retired, was sailing the Great Lakes out of Sandusky, Ohio. And my boss, when I got my first job as an engineer, had been, before he went to engineering school, an able bodied seaman who worked the Great Lakes during the summer and the Gulf of Mexico during the winter. He was half Native American, a member of the Chippewa Nation in the UP of Michigan and back in the early 50's there weren't that many good jobs for young Indian boys so working the lakes was a good opportunity. He was eventually drafted due to the Korean War and while he could have gotten a deferment because being a able bodied seaman was an exempted occupation, he opted for the Army anyway as it allowed him to later go to engineering school on the GI Bill. He was a good boss, but the joke around the office was that he tended to swear like a sailor

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

dik (Structural) · Answer 382 · 2021-04-08 16:53:52

Thanks...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

epoxybot (Structural) · Answer 383 · 2021-04-08 21:35:22

RE: Suez Canal blocked by container ship

epoxybot (Structural) 8 Apr 21 21:35

Thanks Waross

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 384 · 2021-04-09 09:07:59

That guy says Fitz rolled, dumped the cargo, but the Uni Wisconsin says the bow plunged into a wave and went down bow first.

waross (Electrical) · Answer 385 · 2021-04-09 13:29:14

I understood that the ship rolled and dumped its cargo after it was submerged.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

1503-44 (Petroleum) · Answer 386 · 2021-04-09 13:59:49

The UW report appears to contradict rolling. Rolling is a stability issue with large waves abeam and with a heavy water-laden load, they would not have capsized directly, whereas the wind and waves, apparently astern at the time, forced them down bow first. Once under, all stability in any degree of freedom is a moot point, however in an upside down and bow downward position, I doubt they would have had any inherent tendency to roll back upright on account of the hulls bouncy, no matter how they eventually hit the bottom, because the hull would have been flooded immediately by the water flowing in to replace the lost cargo. Upside down with a small amount of air providing little buoyancy and the weight of the rest of the ship below that center of action would not tend to upright the ship. It would probably just continue a nose dive to a more vertical attitude from which almost any final bottom position might result.

zeusfaber (Military) · Answer 387 · 2021-04-09 15:18:47

Getting back to Ever Given, here's how they really got her out.

A.

dik (Structural) · Answer 388 · 2021-04-10 06:58:41

Looks like Egypt is playing 'hardball'...
"“The vessel will remain here until investigations are complete and compensation is paid,” Osama Rabie, chairman of the Suez Canal Authority, told state television in Egypt on Thursday. “We hope for a speedy agreement,” he said. “The minute they agree to compensation, the vessel will be allowed to move.”"

Can they put the money in trust and get the courts to free the vessel?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 389 · 2021-04-10 07:40:02

yes I believe they can but Egypt will want the money now. If they do that it will be over 5 years possibly 10 before they get a look at it. Plus the court may substantially reduce the amount they will get.

They will also hold the crew until its all sorted as well not just the boat.

The boat itself is only worth 170 million. So actually they know fine that the amount they want is actually more than what they have impounded.

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 390 · 2021-04-12 08:49:03

Arresting a ship has precedent under admiralty law.

Ship Arrest Under Maritime Law: Reasons, Procedure, and Precautions By Soumyajit Dasgupta | In: Maritime Law | Last Updated on October 9, 2019

Also limiting the shipowners liability
Increased Limits Of Liability For Maritime Claims Enter Into Force By MI News Network | In: Shipping News | Last Updated on January 23, 2017

Depending on what kind of hardball Egypt wants to play, and how the transit contract interacts with the shipowners obligations under the international conventions, I can see this cargo being delayed for some time.

More Trouble for Evergreen Suez Canal Ship, Now Being Held Captive; Sebastian Blanco, April, 13 2021

thebard3 (Computer) · Answer 391 · 2021-04-12 14:44:40

Quote (FacEngrPE)

I can see this cargo being delayed for some time.

Years.
Unless someone is willing to come off of a whole lot of cash to resolve it sooner.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

dik (Structural) · Answer 392 · 2021-04-12 15:36:57

Quote (yes I believe they can but Egypt will want the money now. If they do that it will be over 5 years possibly 10 before they get a look at it. Plus the court may substantially reduce the amount they will get.)

I was thinking both items... It puts the action into the courts... I still have a little more confidence in them than I do in governments (just a little, in some countries the courts are as corrupt as the governments)... and frees the cargo and crew... else as you noted, could take years to sort out this issue.

Has the boat, legally, been seized?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 393 · 2021-04-12 15:39:15

The problem is the $1Bn the Egyptians want is just plucked from thin air and wouldn't stand up in any court.

It is only those ships which gave up or took a view after setting sail and went round the Cape which they lost revenue on. A few 10's of millions. They shifted the back log in about 7-10 days at more ships per day so still got all the cash.
Don't know what the salvage team were on, but even if its Lloyds open book, this will be resolved via normal means. The rental on those puny excavators wouldn't be much...
SO their direct losses are probably <$50MM and maybe not even that. but now they've come out with a figure, they can't back down too far or they will "loose face". Only if a bunch of ship owners threatened to go the long route unless they freed the vessel on the grounds that any ship now stood the risk of being impounded in the event of an incident would they start to see sense.

The cargo owners are many and various so they have no single voice to speak up for them.
If I owned any of that stuff in the containers on the vessel I would be pressing the insurance company for total write off and re send it. It's going to be there for a long time....

Just hope not too many peoples personal possession were on it.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

dik (Structural) · Answer 394 · 2021-04-12 15:53:21

I'm thinking of all the 'live' stock on board... I don't know how you get to them, unless they are the top containers... A big thing, I think the courts would look into is the pilot being Egyptian... althought they are protected from liability, the courts may view otherwise. There are some things that you cannot 'Contract out of'. In my earlier comment, I was wondering if the vessel was legally seized, or if the Egyptian government has just taken possession of it.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

JohnRBaker (Mechanical) · Answer 395 · 2021-04-12 16:00:16

I've found no reports that the Ever Given was carrying livestock. In fact, from my searches, it appears that livestock are carried on specialized ships equipped for just this purpose. That being said, it was also reported that some 20 'livestock' ships had been delayed as a result of the canal blockage.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 396 · 2021-04-12 16:41:06

Unless some of the containers are refrigerated then the cargo is simply sitting there. Even the reefers as they seem to be known are fed from the ships power supply so whilst the contents might not be edible any more they at least won't rot.... The EG probably has enough fuel oil for months sitting there but might need a top up to get to its destination.

Container ships don't carry live cargo.

As to the legality of the impoundment, who knows? My guess is that it is being viewed as an extraordinary fee by the SCA and they probably have the rigth to prevent the ship leaving their jurisdiction until it is paid.

This is definitely one where possession is 100% of the law....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

dik (Structural) · Answer 397 · 2021-04-12 16:55:53

Sorry... I'd read somewhere that there was livestock on board. It makes sense that there wouldn't be any...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 398 · 2021-04-12 17:32:23

There was a lot of concern over live animal cargo ships caught up in the ship jam as they couldn't off load or in some cases feed the animals properly.

Hopefully they got some sort of priority once the ship had been moved...

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

waross (Electrical) · Answer 399 · 2021-04-12 17:41:34

Fun Fact:
While the commercial shipping fleet of Honduras is tiny, on a percentage basis, it was a world leader in the percentage of its fleet that was arrested in foreign ports for unseaworthy conditions. In the top 1 or 2.
As well they were a leader in the percentage of their fleet that sank annually. Again in the top 1 or 2.
I worked on a lot of ships generators in Honduras.
I heard a lot of interesting stories.
In regards to the Ever given:
Associate arrest.
If the claim by Egypt exceeds the amount recoverable from the disposal of the ship and cargo, The Egyptians may possibly arrest other ships owned by the same firm.
I wonder if the Evergreen line will start to avoid the canal.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

dik (Structural) · Answer 400 · 2021-04-12 17:53:05

Quote (If the claim by Egypt exceeds the amount recoverable from the disposal of the ship and cargo, The Egyptians may possibly arrest other ships owned by the same firm.
I wonder if the Evergreen line will start to avoid the canal.)

I wonder when this becomes 'piracy'? I'm looking forward to see what happens in the next little while. I don't know if Egypt is a signatory for the World Court... might be the next round. No one seems to be moving quickly on this, unless it's 'behind the scenes'.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 401 · 2021-04-12 18:39:45

There is a load of international law which covers this

Leans against ships have been done for hundreds of years.

They also impound aircraft in the same way for money owed.

Lou Scannon (Automotive) · Answer 402 · 2021-04-12 22:30:58

Great, all we need right now, a flashpoint for another "Middle East" war bomb

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 403 · 2021-04-13 06:03:56

Nah this won't creat anything. There will be hundreds of ships and aircraft held like this at the moment today.

The last aircraft that I was flying that got impounded is still sitting where I parked it in ras al khaimah in the UAE. Hasn't moved in 11 years.

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 404 · 2021-04-13 06:12:25

As long as it doesn't go like that impounded fertilizer. Interesting note, my dad works on agriculture and said the markings on their bags indicated that it was not fertilizer grade (too coarse).

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 405 · 2021-04-13 07:35:26

Exactly good example how often these impounding of things happen tug.

Every one knows that it was for making explosives but they can't publicly say it with out proof.

davefitz (Mechanical) · Answer 406 · 2021-04-13 13:32:56

I really hope none of those containers held immigrants.

If Egypt ends up owning the ship and the containers, they would have an interesting time inspecting each one- undoubtedly a few held illegal cargo. The shippers who could be traced that had shipped illegal cargo will probably lobby Egypt to buy back their container unopened.Perhaps the official in the catbird seat who decides the fate of the containers will see a healthy addition to his/her retirement fund.And the world spins around and around.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 407 · 2021-04-13 16:04:04

the Latest from the Dane is another example of this suction thing and big boats. It was again a suez incident

https://youtu.be/7ocTTkHqQcg

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 408 · 2021-04-13 22:06:33

Overtaking in a canal is quite a complicated maneuver.

https://youtu.be/3NqN_yNrR8Y

FacEngrPE (Mechanical) · Answer 409 · 2021-04-14 01:00:08

Pilots that are good at managing the complicated dynamics of both a ship in tight quarters and the wheelhouse crew deserve considerable respect.
SH Lesson 6 Interaction Bank Effect
Manoeuvring in Shallow Waters

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 410 · 2021-04-14 04:00:12

They certainly get it from me.

Although that starts me down a very regular thought process of why some humans have a natural talent for controlling machines which almost seems instinctive and others are monkeys on the controls.

The Dane comes from a family of seafarers his great granddad use to Captain square riggers doing the wheat run from Australia to the UK. His brother is a gifted pilot of aircraft. Both of them seem to struggle explaining why they do certain things.

Some of the best instructors and technical pilots that I have met are shall we say are rather rubbish at being the monkey on the stick, struggle with timing and job priorities. But they are utterly excellent at creating a good learning environment and supplying targeted information to others.

Once had a kid turn up at the flying school his dad had bought him 3 hours worth of flying lessons for his 15th birthday. Weather was crap low cloud so I couldn't take him off on a nav trip. So said sorry but really don't want to waste your money by taking you up. Only thing I would do with you today is doing circuits at the airport. kids face was a picture of joy at this prospect. Long story short after talking him round the first circuit and landing I basically sat with my hands on my lap and did absolutely nothing. He did everything including the coms with the tower. Spoke to his dad and said he was a natural. Last time I heard he was winning all the comps in the UK RAF for anything to do with ground attack and bombing. But was also well near the top for dog fighting as well.

cranky108 (Electrical) · Answer 411 · 2021-04-14 14:13:58

Sort of leads me to think, if some people are naturals at some things? Is it possible the thing I am a natural at has not been invented?

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 412 · 2021-04-14 15:26:49

Maybe you haven't tried enough things, to have found it yet.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 413 · 2021-04-14 16:03:38

I would try scrabble first before deep sea diving....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

MacGyverS2000 (Electrical) · Answer 414 · 2021-04-14 17:09:28

Or perhaps Uno before skydiving...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 415 · 2021-04-14 17:54:00

Mac just to come out with it, Redsnake joined the forum to get some questions answered after her partner died in a sky diving aircraft accident.

From what I know of her she won't take it personally etc. And its not your fault for not knowing. But just so there is no confusion and awkwardness I will be Scottish blunt.

Which knowing scandi's red won't mind.

And to add I don't think there is any need to delete the post or be sorry.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 416 · 2021-04-14 19:02:05

Thanks Alistair, you are right, I don't mind.
And Mac, I didn't take it personally.
But as with all those things that is close to heart it always triggers the grief and sorrow, but it could as easily have been Trivial Pursuit or something else, one never really knows what will.

Best Regards Anna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

SWComposites (Aerospace) · Answer 417 · 2021-04-15 02:19:26

Yep, govt extortion racket: https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/13/business/ever-given...

$300M for “loss of reputation”
$300M for “salvage bonus”

TugboatEng (Marine/Ocean) · Answer 418 · 2021-04-15 03:26:02

Insurance rates are going to go Up Up Up. Good or bad? Who knows. It will raise costs for Europe on Chinese goods and lower US costs. Whether that is beneficial or detrimental is up for debate.

dik (Structural) · Answer 419 · 2021-04-15 05:27:35

and add an impetus for the Russians to open up their northern passage.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 420 · 2021-04-15 07:24:25

“loss of reputation” ponder

To loos reputation it feels like the fault must lie with the Suez Canal company.
A strange way of taking responsibility for someone "elses fault" without having done something "wrong". ponder

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 421 · 2021-04-15 09:47:54

the joys of dealing with the Arab mindset.

Its just an opening ploy and they will alos be trying to work out how everyone is going to get their Baksheesh

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 422 · 2021-04-15 10:08:27

Quote (Alistair)
But just so there is no confusion and awkwardness I will be Scottish blunt.

When you comment like in the post above, I get this picture in my head of a knight knight

in shining armor.

But since I know, Scotland really never had any "real" Scottish knights,
it leads me to a kind of, under the belt, kind of question .....

Do you have a tartan. ponder

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 423 · 2021-04-15 10:48:29

No knights in Scotland, we painted our bums blue to keep the Romans out.

Ancient Irvine is the male side tartan. I have a kilt but haven't worn it in years. The brat has a kids kilt and loves wearing it and does so to every birthday party he goes to.

RedSnake (Electrical) · Answer 424 · 2021-04-15 12:04:58

Good on him thumbsup2

We painted our bums blue, lol

wasn't that a bit proactive wearing a kilt at the same time. ponder

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 425 · 2021-04-15 12:07:23

RE: Suez Canal blocked by container ship

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) 15 Apr 21 12:07

It worked they built Hadrian's wall.

Lou Scannon (Automotive) · Answer 426 · 2021-04-16 00:41:22

I guess the kilts were left behind during battle, lest they be blemished wink

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 427 · 2021-04-16 02:07:40

no those days they wore them all the time and they were used as a sleeping blanket as well.

in WW1 The Scottish regiments used to fight in them as well.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 428 · 2021-04-16 05:56:48

Anyway back to the subject..

Found this on youtube.

https://youtu.be/zf4qVJ65ghA

Compositepro (Chemical) · Answer 429 · 2021-04-16 16:05:30

RE: Suez Canal blocked by container ship

Compositepro (Chemical) 16 Apr 21 16:05

Excellent video.

LittleInch (Petroleum) · Answer 430 · 2021-04-16 16:24:47

It certainly did some fairly funky manoeuvres prior to entering the canal.

Maybe the pilot or captain was so pleased with his ship drawing a phallus and some balls that he kind of took his eye off the large wall of sand on his right hand side....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) · Answer 431 · 2021-04-16 17:06:58

They don't like to stop them because then they will just get blown around and drift. So they keep them moving so they still have rudder authority.

Given half the chance pilots regularly draw penises in the sky and controllers do the same when bored.

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